Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground

[MJB12741]

Since many Jews live in the US and Israel I hope you do due diligence and make sure you don’t deal with them.

If you noticed, I was talking about Israeli jews.

I generally don't have a problem with American jews, unless they are hard core zionists. ....

Thank you Suni. We really give a shit what you think of American Jews.

 

[Indeependent]

Which Muslims nations have you visited?

There are like 57 muslim majority countries that range from dirt poor countries with illiterate citizens, to wealthy modern countries with ultra modern cities, and everything in between.

I haven't visited them all, but enough to know what I'm talking about. ..

You description is correct.
Unlike Islam, Jews don’t have a dictate to conquer the world.

 

[Hollie]

Which Muslims nations have you visited?

There are like 57 muslim majority countries that range from dirt poor countries with illiterate citizens, to wealthy modern countries with ultra modern cities, and everything in between.

I haven't visited them all, but enough to know what I'm talking about. ..

That’s actually funny. The goofy convert safely ensconced in the Great Satan. ..

True story.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

I hate to break it to you but many Israeli Jews spend half the year in the US and the majority of Jews are Zionists even though they won’t admit it in public.

Many American jews have dual Israeli citizenship, meaning dual loyalty with a foreign country. Which is another reason jews can't be trusted. Because they would gladly choose Israel over America if forced to make a choice. ..

Since Israel and America are great allies, they will never have to make a choice.

 

[Coyote]

Here is the Peace to Prosperity Plan if any one cares to read all 181 pages.

Reading it ....

 

[Shusha]

Here is the Peace to Prosperity Plan if any one cares to read all 181 pages.

Reading it ....

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

 

[Crepitus]

Complete non-starter.

Nothing but an attempt to distract folks from both crooked politician's troubles.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Does Trump's 'deal of the century' make Middle East peace impossible? | The Bottom Line

 

[Indeependent]

Does Trump's 'deal of the century' make Middle East peace impossible? | The Bottom Line

So Iran and Iraq are at peace?
Lebanon is okdokee being invaded by Syria?
You’re at peace being insane?

 

[Coyote]

Here is the Peace to Prosperity Plan if any one cares to read all 181 pages.

Reading it ....

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

It's a long read - I'm only on page 28 lol - but it intrigues me, I see some potential.

I'm taking a break from reading it now though. I need some junk food for my mind

 

[Coyote]

Complete non-starter.

Nothing but an attempt to distract folks from both crooked politician's troubles.

I don't think so - it's worth a read I think. I do have a concern that it was released prematurely to distract from the two crooked politicians troubles.

 

[Coyote]

Trump is the problem.

In what way?

He concocts the deal of the century with just one side and presents it to the world with, again one side while his audience claps like seals.

It has been done to deflect from his impeachment and has done nothing raise tensions in the area.
Its reunited Fatah and Hamas and I really cant see it as any sort of solution .

Do you think it resolves the problem ?

Both are valid concerns. Honestly I think there MIGHT be merit in it, but the process in which it was produced is flawed in excluding by design, any Palestinian participation.

 

[Crepitus]

Complete non-starter.

Nothing but an attempt to distract folks from both crooked politician's troubles.

I don't think so - it's worth a read I think. I do have a concern that it was released prematurely to distract from the two crooked politicians troubles.

It's going nowhere. It leaves the Palestinians completely at the mercy of Israel.

 

[Coyote]

Coyote

Thoughts? This deal *should* meet your objectives for solving the conflict, no?

I am conflicted. The devil is in the details and this was put together by Israel and the US excluding the palestinians. Israel seems to get everything they want. What exactly are the pals getting in terms of what they want? I was listening to an informative set of interviews on this morning on BBC world. I am on my phone and can't download it at the moment, but will later.

One point made was Israel can annex Arab villages to Palestine. What exactly does that mean? Arab Israeli's by far prefer their Israeli citizenship. They chose, they are well integrated. Does this mean forcing people to lose their citizenship? Shouldn't the people affected have some say?

As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate. The annexation map was drawn up so that no Arab villages would be annexed. While the Palestinians refused to participate in drawing up the plan, in an effort to be fair, the US worked closely with Arab states including Saudi Arabia and Egypt, both strong supporters of the Palestinian national aspirations, to fairly represent Palestinian interests, and both countries strongly support the plan.

Israel did not get everything it wanted. If the Palestinians agree to participate in the plan, Israel will have to recognize a sovereign Palestinian state in approximately 70% of Judea and Samaria in addition to Gaza, and Israel will have to allow the Palestinians to operate their own shipping companies out of Haifa and Ashdod, allowing the Palestinians direct access to North Africa and Europe without going through Israeli customs. Both of these items are very unpopular in Israel. In addition, Israel will have to agree to a four year freeze on construction in area that go to the Palestinians if they agree to the plan.

What the Palestinians get is US and Israeli recognition of a sovereign state of Palestine in 70% of Judea and Samaria in addition to Gaza - ,making their new state eligible for membership in the UN -their own shipping companies in Haifa and Ashdod that will not have to go through Israeli customs, and sufficient investment in the Palestinian economy - at least $25,000.000,000 - to double or triple their GDP and wages and salaries.

The question is not how this compares with what the Palestinians want, but how this compares to other options the Palestinians can realistically aspire to, and the answer is the only other option is the status quo, all this plan will cost the Palestinians is the inestimable joy they receive from murdering Jews.

Regarding this: As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate.

Did Jared Kushner have any talks with the Palestinians? Did he attempt any talks while formulating this? I don't think he did. He hashed it out first with Israel...no Palestinian invite. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't remember reading anything about Palestinians being invited 0 only Jared trotting off to Israel.

And add Trump's actions towards them regarding Jerusalem, their consulate, and international aid - of course they weren't going to be part of it later.

Kushner basically trashed the Palestinian people with the type of statement that harkens back to the Paternalistic attitudes of the colonial empires:

"Do they want to have a state? Do they want to have a better life? If they do, we have created a framework for them to have it, and we’re going to treat them in a very respectful manner. If they don’t, then they’re going to screw up another opportunity like they’ve screwed up every other opportunity that they’ve ever had in their existence."

There is at best, a certain naiveté and arrogance in some of it. The development ideas are straight out of an American frame of reference and there is a certain pie-in-the-sky aspect to it (where in the heck is all the money going to come from?). There is a heavy reliance on state of the art this and high speed that and a hell of a lot of infrastructure. It reminds me of a real-estate developer's model for a proposed community sales pitch. Most often, development works best in conjunction with the communities it is supposed to serve and a bottom up not top down approach. Has anyone asked the Palestinian people (not leadership) what they envision?

I've only read the first 30 pages, and this is what I've noticed so far.

That said - I do think there are some possibilities, but it may have been rendered toxic by the method in which it was created.

And still - where will all this money come from? A lot of promises....

 

[Coyote]

Complete non-starter.

Nothing but an attempt to distract folks from both crooked politician's troubles.

I don't think so - it's worth a read I think. I do have a concern that it was released prematurely to distract from the two crooked politicians troubles.

It's going nowhere. It leaves the Palestinians completely at the mercy of Israel.

That is one concern.

 

[Crepitus]

Complete non-starter.

Nothing but an attempt to distract folks from both crooked politician's troubles.

I don't think so - it's worth a read I think. I do have a concern that it was released prematurely to distract from the two crooked politicians troubles.

It's going nowhere. It leaves the Palestinians completely at the mercy of Israel.

That is one concern.

As far as the Palestinians are concerned that's it, it's over.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Mehdi Hasan: Trump’s Middle East Plan Is a Policy of Apartheid & Settler Colonialism



“Yet Another Declaration of War on Palestinians”: Rashid Khalidi on Trump’s Middle East “Peace” Plan

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Mehdi Hasan: Trump’s Middle East Plan Is a Policy of Apartheid & Settler Colonialism



“Yet Another Declaration of War on Palestinians”: Rashid Khalidi on Trump’s Middle East “Peace” Plan

Trump’s Middle East Plan Is a Policy of Apartheid & Settler Colonialism

Outrageous!!

Only Muzzies get to use those policies.

 

[Coyote]

Complete non-starter.

Nothing but an attempt to distract folks from both crooked politician's troubles.

I don't think so - it's worth a read I think. I do have a concern that it was released prematurely to distract from the two crooked politicians troubles.

It's going nowhere. It leaves the Palestinians completely at the mercy of Israel.

That is one concern.

As far as the Palestinians are concerned that's it, it's over.

Frankly I think Israel was long planning an annexation, this formalizes it in the shape of a "US sanctioned" plan and throws a rope to two troubled political leaders.

I've not finished reading it though - and there is some merit in some of the suggestions.

I can't agree with any plan that involves forced population expulsions, and I understand Israel's need for security and concerns about Hamas. Any plan must address that.

The map though, is not detailed and doesn't really show the many many settlements (some quite small) that will be "Israeli" territory surrounded by "Palestinian" territory - the measles map. This is exactly why the settlements are such a core problem for the Palestinians. The lack of contiguousness is a huge issue that I'm not sure is really understood in the plan - BUT - there might be more detail further in besides a heavy dependence on "state of the art infrastructure" and "high speed rail."

 

[toomuchtime_]

Coyote

Thoughts? This deal *should* meet your objectives for solving the conflict, no?

I am conflicted. The devil is in the details and this was put together by Israel and the US excluding the palestinians. Israel seems to get everything they want. What exactly are the pals getting in terms of what they want? I was listening to an informative set of interviews on this morning on BBC world. I am on my phone and can't download it at the moment, but will later.

One point made was Israel can annex Arab villages to Palestine. What exactly does that mean? Arab Israeli's by far prefer their Israeli citizenship. They chose, they are well integrated. Does this mean forcing people to lose their citizenship? Shouldn't the people affected have some say?

As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate. The annexation map was drawn up so that no Arab villages would be annexed. While the Palestinians refused to participate in drawing up the plan, in an effort to be fair, the US worked closely with Arab states including Saudi Arabia and Egypt, both strong supporters of the Palestinian national aspirations, to fairly represent Palestinian interests, and both countries strongly support the plan.

Israel did not get everything it wanted. If the Palestinians agree to participate in the plan, Israel will have to recognize a sovereign Palestinian state in approximately 70% of Judea and Samaria in addition to Gaza, and Israel will have to allow the Palestinians to operate their own shipping companies out of Haifa and Ashdod, allowing the Palestinians direct access to North Africa and Europe without going through Israeli customs. Both of these items are very unpopular in Israel. In addition, Israel will have to agree to a four year freeze on construction in area that go to the Palestinians if they agree to the plan.

What the Palestinians get is US and Israeli recognition of a sovereign state of Palestine in 70% of Judea and Samaria in addition to Gaza - ,making their new state eligible for membership in the UN -their own shipping companies in Haifa and Ashdod that will not have to go through Israeli customs, and sufficient investment in the Palestinian economy - at least $25,000.000,000 - to double or triple their GDP and wages and salaries.

The question is not how this compares with what the Palestinians want, but how this compares to other options the Palestinians can realistically aspire to, and the answer is the only other option is the status quo, all this plan will cost the Palestinians is the inestimable joy they receive from murdering Jews.

Regarding this: As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate.

Did Jared Kushner have any talks with the Palestinians? Did he attempt any talks while formulating this? I don't think he did. He hashed it out first with Israel...no Palestinian invite. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't remember reading anything about Palestinians being invited 0 only Jared trotting off to Israel.

And add Trump's actions towards them regarding Jerusalem, their consulate, and international aid - of course they weren't going to be part of it later.

Kushner basically trashed the Palestinian people with the type of statement that harkens back to the Paternalistic attitudes of the colonial empires:

"Do they want to have a state? Do they want to have a better life? If they do, we have created a framework for them to have it, and we’re going to treat them in a very respectful manner. If they don’t, then they’re going to screw up another opportunity like they’ve screwed up every other opportunity that they’ve ever had in their existence."

There is at best, a certain naiveté and arrogance in some of it. The development ideas are straight out of an American frame of reference and there is a certain pie-in-the-sky aspect to it (where in the heck is all the money going to come from?). There is a heavy reliance on state of the art this and high speed that and a hell of a lot of infrastructure. It reminds me of a real-estate developer's model for a proposed community sales pitch. Most often, development works best in conjunction with the communities it is supposed to serve and a bottom up not top down approach. Has anyone asked the Palestinian people (not leadership) what they envision?

I've only read the first 30 pages, and this is what I've noticed so far.

That said - I do think there are some possibilities, but it may have been rendered toxic by the method in which it was created.

And still - where will all this money come from? A lot of promises....

Once again, you show that if you didn't lie you wouldn't have anything to post at all. Kushner, Greenblatt and Friedman all asked the Palestinians to participate in drawing up the plan, but after the US recognized western Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, Abbas refused to deal with the US on any level. Last summer Kushner repeatedly asked Abbas to reconsider participation in the plan, but he proudly and publicly refused. If the people want to reach out beyond their government there is nothing stopping them except the likelihood of being punished by their government.

However the plan is merely the basis for negotiations and it is still possible for the PA to participate, but if they refuse, it will not prevent Israel from annexing that Jordan Valley and the existing settlements in Judea and Samaria.

lol what's amusing about your post is that it is just like Abbas' response to the plan: you don't yet know what is in it but you are sure you are opposed to it.