Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground

[rylah]

Brazilian President Bolsonaro 'lauds' US peace plan
Trump hosts Bolsonaro at Mar-a-Lago resort in Florida, where the 2 discuss a range of issues.

President Donald Trump on Saturday hosted Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro for dinner at his Mar-a-Lago resort in Florida, where they spoke about topics including Venezuela, a future trade deal, the Middle East and collaboration in military research.

A joint statement released by the two leaders after the meeting said they had "reaffirmed the strategic alliance between the United States and Brazil, deepening the partnership between their two countries. The two leaders focused on increasing economic prosperity, strengthening democracy, and promoting peace and security."

"President Trump and President Bolsonaro reiterated their countries’ support for democracy in the region, including Interim President of Venezuela Juan Guaidó and the democratically elected Venezuelan National Assembly as they work to restore constitutional order in Venezuela. The two leaders also discussed supporting Bolivia’s efforts to conduct free and fair elections.

"President Trump and President Bolsonaro reiterated their commitment to peace and prosperity in the Middle East, and President Bolsonaro lauded the United States’ vision for the peaceful coexistence of the State of Israel and a Palestinian state.

"As leaders of the two largest economies in the hemisphere, President Trump and President Bolsonaro noted the potential benefits to American and Brazilian workers and businesses of growing the bilateral economic relationship. To this end, they instructed their trade officials to deepen discussions for a bilateral trade package this year, with a view towards intensifying the economic partnership between their two countries.

"The two leaders also discussed expediting Brazil’s participation in the Trusted Trader program, to streamline commerce between both countries by ensuring the security and safety of imported goods, with a goal of program entry in 2021.

"President Trump reiterated the United States’ support for Brazil beginning the accession process to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) and urges its OECD partners to work with the United States towards this goal, which will help grow the Brazilian economy and its competitiveness.

"The two leaders noted that their teams are finalizing other areas of bilateral cooperation, including collaboration in military research and development and signing an América Cresce Memorandum of Understanding to stimulate economic development in the hemisphere. They also lauded other areas of ongoing cooperation such as aerospace, science and technology, health, and innovation.

"Both presidents also discussed the Trillion Trees Initiative, an effort seeking to re-grow, save from loss, and better protect one trillion trees around the world by 2050, through collective action by all sectors of society. The two leaders also welcomed the signing of the United States-Brazil Working Plan for Science and Technology 2020-2023 as a key instrument for joint research and promotion of new technologies."

Arutz Shev'a

 

[rylah]

"Sovereignty within months if PA doesn't return to negotiations"
Senior US diplomats: We will approve sovereignty within months if Palestinian Arabs don't return to negotiating table.

The Trump administration is planning to signal its approval for Israel to declare sovereignty in Judea, Samaria and the Jordan Valley within months, despite the political situation in the country if the Palestinians Arabs do not return to the negotiating table.

Channel 13 News political correspondent Barak Ravid reported that the White House is moving forward with the implementation of President Trump's peace plan. The main issue at stake at this stage is the work of the Israeli-American Joint Committee, which is precisely marking the territories in Judea and Samaria that the United States will recognize as part of Israel under the Trump plan, and which Israel will be able to annex if it wishes to do so.

President Trump's senior adviser Jared Kushner said in a closed briefing to Democratic and Republican senators yesterday that the mapping [of areas to be included in Israeli jurisdiction] is expected to continue for several more months.

According to Ravid's report, Kushner emphasized that if the Palestinian Arabs decide to return to negotiations during this time period, they may have an opportunity to improve on the proposal but if they fail to do so, the sovereignty process will continue and "they will have only themselves to blame."

"Sovereignty within months if PA doesn't return to negotiations" - Israel National News

 

[ForeverYoung436]

"Sovereignty within months if PA doesn't return to negotiations"
Senior US diplomats: We will approve sovereignty within months if Palestinian Arabs don't return to negotiating table.

The Trump administration is planning to signal its approval for Israel to declare sovereignty in Judea, Samaria and the Jordan Valley within months, despite the political situation in the country if the Palestinians Arabs do not return to the negotiating table.

Channel 13 News political correspondent Barak Ravid reported that the White House is moving forward with the implementation of President Trump's peace plan. The main issue at stake at this stage is the work of the Israeli-American Joint Committee, which is precisely marking the territories in Judea and Samaria that the United States will recognize as part of Israel under the Trump plan, and which Israel will be able to annex if it wishes to do so.

President Trump's senior adviser Jared Kushner said in a closed briefing to Democratic and Republican senators yesterday that the mapping [of areas to be included in Israeli jurisdiction] is expected to continue for several more months.

According to Ravid's report, Kushner emphasized that if the Palestinian Arabs decide to return to negotiations during this time period, they may have an opportunity to improve on the proposal but if they fail to do so, the sovereignty process will continue and "they will have only themselves to blame."

"Sovereignty within months if PA doesn't return to negotiations" - Israel National News

The train has left the station, and the Palestinian Arabs haven't even bought a ticket or entered the platform yet.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ ForeverYoung436, et al

This is just more evidence that the Arab Palestinians, as a "potential" for self-determination, culturally and politically suicidal. Which, come to think of it, should not be all that surprising.

"The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition."
................................................................................................Isa Nakhleh
...................................................................................................................Representative of the Arab Higher Committee
...................................................................................................................Statement of 6 February 1948 Communicated to the Secretary-General​

The train has left the station, and the Palestinian Arabs haven't even bought a ticket or entered the platform yet.

(COMMENT)

Yes... There is little doubt that the Arab Palestinians lacked the capacity and ability to develop a leadership that was actually capable of putting together a provisional government that was functional.

The historical records show that the Arab Palestinians dwindled away their legacy. That they did not intend to pursue a diplomatic track leading to political independence. That over time, their inability to compromise and demand "all or nothing," may (in the end) get them "nothing."

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

And how do you know this?

Their permanent citizenship status can be revoked if they leave the country for more than 7 years. One major difference from being a citizen. They can't leave, be an expat, and come back.

Also - you ignored the that in the article I linked to (dated within the past year) - many more Palestinians ARE seeking citizenship and Israel is making a concerted effort to shorten the process. That says to me there is a demand, at least in Jerusalem, and Israel is attempting to make it quicker. How do you know that the Palestinians in the annexed area do not want the same thing? And since we have no idea what Netanyahu plans on annexing, and you've presented nothing to indicate what it is yet - I think it's fair to assume he is standing by his September promise.

First, we know exactly what areas Israel plans on annexing because they are exactly the areas specified in President Trump's plan. US officials are in Israel now working out exactly how the process will go forward. Israel is eager for US recognition of sovereignty over the new lands, so it will not diverge from what the US has approved at this time.

The "surge" in applications the article reports is still just a few thousand out of 350,000, less than 1%, so interest in Israeli citizenship continues to be very low among Arab residents. This uptick in applications is a good thing. It shows that Arab residents in Jerusalem finally are beginning to understand that the status of the city is not going to change. And Israel is working to expedite these applications, another good sign. Since turnout of Arab residents of Jerusalem is very low in municipal elections, they obviously do not care much about voting in national elections, and since the "surge" in applications remains so low, they obviously are not troubled by the fact that if they leave Israel for too long, they could lose their residency permit. While you are clearly passionate about citizenship, the Arab residents in Jerusalem are clearly not, so if you are not speaking out for them, why are you speaking out about this?

I'm going to ask again - how do you know this? Israel hasn't exactly accepted the plan either. From my point of view - they are using it as a means of validating annexation. Beyond that - what are they doing?

So how do you know they are only annexing according to what is laid out in that plan? All I've seen so far is what Netanyahu stated in the fall. If you have a source, I'd be interested in reading it.

On the applications - I agree with your assessment (per the bolded).

I don't think you can claim that they don't care about the ability to be able to leave and lose their residency permits because they simply don't leave. There have been numerous court cases over this and how it has caused problems, particularly if they have family also in the West Bank.

I also am not sure that you are correct on those that want to request citizenship being so low (just a few thousand).

This is from 2017: East Jerusalem: Palestinians still want to become Israeli citizens

Since Trump’s declaration on Dec. 7, a long line of Palestinians seeking citizenship curls out daily from the Israeli Interior Ministry’s office in East Jerusalem, which is predominantly Arab and claimed by Palestinian leaders as the future capital of their own independent state.

The line stems from a social media news prank that claimed Israel was “imposing” citizenship on all of the city's Arab residents, who make up about 37% of Jerusalem's population.

The prank exploited real-life aspirations of Palestinians, most of whom still have not been granted citizenship and yearn for a better life here.

Ten years ago, it was taboo for Palestinians in Jerusalem to request Israeli citizenship, but now it is the norm, with thousands of new requests each year, accordiing to Israeli Interior Ministry figures. The wait time is about three years.

Increasing numbers of East Jerusalem Palestinians are choosing to live in Jewish neighborhoods. Separately, greater numbers of local Palestinians are choosing to send their children to Arabic-language schools using Israeli curricula.

Between the 2016 and the 2017 school years, there was a 14% increase in Arab students studying for Israeli high school enrollment exams, according to municipal statistics. Parents want their children to be able to access Israeli universities.​

Actually reading this makes me rethink some things in regards to what I said about Israel not want to grant citizenship or being arbitrary. Perhaps this is changing as Palestinians, living within Israel, are changing.

RoccoR I would be curious on your thoughts here, because I got the impression that you did not think citizenship would make a difference in how invested one was in a state (civil society) - if so many are wanting it - doesn't that imply a desire to do so?

If this is in response to the de-facto determination that Jerusalem is no longer on the table, then I think annexation might have the same affect in the WB. yes? no?

That's great input.. Wasn't aware of the increased "assimilation" desires of the Palis, but there's a small fraction will to go those lengths to KEEP the relatively high level of prosperity that they currently have..

There's an increasing "odor" that all the parties have given up.. And my take is that the Palestinians are NOT thrilled by all the "nation state actors" SUGGESTING what they need to do.. ALL of these failed plans EXPECT at the get-go that the Palis will adopt some form of "nation state" govt and look and ACT like all the other "nation states" on the planet.. THIS is untenable to the majority of them who have REJECTED both the "Arafat model" and the "PA model"...

They DO NOT want to be FORCED to form coalitions between Fatah and Hamas and pretend it's any kind of "unity government".. The boundaries of their tribal, familiar, and locality allegiances just get too strained.. They see only GRAFT AND CORRUPTION resulting from a such a construct..

What I THINK they want is to live their lives with the freedom to TRAVEL and TRADE and have enough leadership at the local levels to provide that security and infrastructure.. Doubt they are even INSISTENT on "right of return" if it applies GENERALLY to ANYONE that claims "Palestinian citzenship" not CURRENTLY in Palestine.

If the annexation is a MUTUAL effort to establish LIVABLE and relatively free lives and PROVIDES that freedom to trade and travel and relative AUTONOMY on the local scale --- I think that's where this HAS to head towards...

Wasn't aware of the increased "assimilation" desires of the Palis, but there's a small fraction will to go those lengths to KEEP the relatively high level of prosperity that they currently have..

It is a decision forced upon them in order to continue living in their homeland. Should they seek citizenship in the occupation or risk being ethnically cleansed as many Jerusalemites have.

 

[P F Tinmore]

First, we know exactly what areas Israel plans on annexing because they are exactly the areas specified in President Trump's plan. US officials are in Israel now working out exactly how the process will go forward. Israel is eager for US recognition of sovereignty over the new lands, so it will not diverge from what the US has approved at this time.

The "surge" in applications the article reports is still just a few thousand out of 350,000, less than 1%, so interest in Israeli citizenship continues to be very low among Arab residents. This uptick in applications is a good thing. It shows that Arab residents in Jerusalem finally are beginning to understand that the status of the city is not going to change. And Israel is working to expedite these applications, another good sign. Since turnout of Arab residents of Jerusalem is very low in municipal elections, they obviously do not care much about voting in national elections, and since the "surge" in applications remains so low, they obviously are not troubled by the fact that if they leave Israel for too long, they could lose their residency permit. While you are clearly passionate about citizenship, the Arab residents in Jerusalem are clearly not, so if you are not speaking out for them, why are you speaking out about this?

I'm going to ask again - how do you know this? Israel hasn't exactly accepted the plan either. From my point of view - they are using it as a means of validating annexation. Beyond that - what are they doing?

So how do you know they are only annexing according to what is laid out in that plan? All I've seen so far is what Netanyahu stated in the fall. If you have a source, I'd be interested in reading it.

On the applications - I agree with your assessment (per the bolded).

I don't think you can claim that they don't care about the ability to be able to leave and lose their residency permits because they simply don't leave. There have been numerous court cases over this and how it has caused problems, particularly if they have family also in the West Bank.

I also am not sure that you are correct on those that want to request citizenship being so low (just a few thousand).

This is from 2017: East Jerusalem: Palestinians still want to become Israeli citizens

Since Trump’s declaration on Dec. 7, a long line of Palestinians seeking citizenship curls out daily from the Israeli Interior Ministry’s office in East Jerusalem, which is predominantly Arab and claimed by Palestinian leaders as the future capital of their own independent state.

The line stems from a social media news prank that claimed Israel was “imposing” citizenship on all of the city's Arab residents, who make up about 37% of Jerusalem's population.

The prank exploited real-life aspirations of Palestinians, most of whom still have not been granted citizenship and yearn for a better life here.

Ten years ago, it was taboo for Palestinians in Jerusalem to request Israeli citizenship, but now it is the norm, with thousands of new requests each year, accordiing to Israeli Interior Ministry figures. The wait time is about three years.

Increasing numbers of East Jerusalem Palestinians are choosing to live in Jewish neighborhoods. Separately, greater numbers of local Palestinians are choosing to send their children to Arabic-language schools using Israeli curricula.

Between the 2016 and the 2017 school years, there was a 14% increase in Arab students studying for Israeli high school enrollment exams, according to municipal statistics. Parents want their children to be able to access Israeli universities.​

Actually reading this makes me rethink some things in regards to what I said about Israel not want to grant citizenship or being arbitrary. Perhaps this is changing as Palestinians, living within Israel, are changing.

RoccoR I would be curious on your thoughts here, because I got the impression that you did not think citizenship would make a difference in how invested one was in a state (civil society) - if so many are wanting it - doesn't that imply a desire to do so?

If this is in response to the de-facto determination that Jerusalem is no longer on the table, then I think annexation might have the same affect in the WB. yes? no?

If you have been following Israeli news, then you know that Netanyahu is planning on annexing only the lands specified in Trump's plan. He has fully embraced it, he has praised it and the annexation is now being planned with Trump's representatives. Since the plan reserves the rest of Judea and Samaria for a Palestinian state if the Palestinians meet the conditions laid out in the plan to annex more than the plan specifies, would amount to rejecting the plan and that would mean the US would not recognize Israeli sovereignty over the land annexed.

I have not seen in the general news - do you have a link?

There simply is no rational basis for suspecting Netanyahu will annex more land than the plan specifies at this time. Nothing Netanyahu may have said before the plan was revealed is relevant.

The TOI link you provided contained a link to another article that defined the surge. It went from a few hundred applying for citizenship to a little less than two thousand. A surge compared to the number that were applying before but not compared to the population of Palestinians in Jerusalem. You mentioned a friend who is a British citizen but has been living in the US for many years with a green card. She cannot vote in elections in the US and if she were to leave for an extended period of time, she would lose her green card, yet these inconveniences don't seem to bother her. I suspect you see this issue as a backdoor to a one state agreement but all the polls of Palestinians show the overwhelming majority of them don't want one state so it shouldn't be a surprise to you that they have so little interest in Israeli citizenship.

There is a difference that I don't think you understand. The people I mentioned who have green cards - moved to the US and chose retain their original citizenship. The US did not take them over. The Palestinians being annexed are home. That is their homeland. Under PA rule - they (theoretically) had rights to vote for their representatives as citizens (realistically there hasn't been an election in years and it's overwhelmingly corrupt, no need to beat that dead horse). They are being annexed, by a foreign state, with no say in the matter. IMO, that means they should have a right to choose to become citizens of that new state, and have all the rights and responsibilities that entails (barring major crimes). If they choose.

On the one state agreement...vs two. What do the Palestinians want? A two-state solution, unless you go with the ideas flacaltenn proposed, which I like better than the Trump plan - or, you go with some version of what's proposed in the Trump plan, is no longer very tenable. From what I've read - support for a two state solution has been dropping both on the Palestinian side and on the Israeli side. What have you read?

The Palestinians are not being annexed, the land is being annexed. This is a good thing for the Palestinians living there. They have been living under Israeli civil and security governance since 1967, and now they will still be living under Israeli civil and security governance, but now they live under the Civil Administration, which is part of the IDF and after annexation, they will be living under the civil government the same as the rest of Israel. Their situation will be unchanged other than having access to all of Israel's considerable social services and being able to travel, work and live anywhere in Israel, things they have no access to now. They will remain citizens of the PA and will be able to vote in PA elections if they ever have them.

My point about your friend from the UK, is that she does not find not being able to vote in US elections or lose her green card if she leaves the US for too long sufficiently inconvenient to apply for US citizenship just as the vast majority of Palestinian residents in Israel do not find these things sufficiently inconvenient to apply for Israeli citizenship. You obviously have an agenda that is different from that of the Palestinian residents in Israel.

Netanyahu has been talking about the Trump plan and annexation frequently. If you do a Google search you will find lots of quotes on the subject. Here's one:

President Donald Trump’s “Deal of the Century”, said Netanyahu, “is the opportunity of a century for Israel. It enables Israel to secure our vital security and our vital national interests by recognizing Israel’s sovereignty over the Jordan Valley and over the Jewish communities that flourish in the heart of our ancestral homeland. It leaves open a path to a political settlement with the Palestinians, and it will help enable Israel to normalize our relations with our other Arab neighbors in the years ahead.”

“Last week, a joint US-Israel mapping committee began its work. It’s working as fast as possible to finish the job. I believe that work should be finished in the next couple of months. Israel would then apply its laws to all those territories that are designated by the Trump plan as being a part of Israel, and the United States will recognize those territories as part of Israel. This will be a truly historic day.”

“The map of Israel will change, the future of Israel will change, and it will change for the better,” said Netanyahu.

Netanyahu: Deal of the Century is the opportunity of a century for Israel - Jewish World

The Palestinians are not being annexed, the land is being annexed. This is a good thing for the Palestinians living there.

It is illegal to annex occupied territory.

No matter how important Trump thinks he is, he is not the arbiter of international law.

 

[Hollie]

First, we know exactly what areas Israel plans on annexing because they are exactly the areas specified in President Trump's plan. US officials are in Israel now working out exactly how the process will go forward. Israel is eager for US recognition of sovereignty over the new lands, so it will not diverge from what the US has approved at this time.

The "surge" in applications the article reports is still just a few thousand out of 350,000, less than 1%, so interest in Israeli citizenship continues to be very low among Arab residents. This uptick in applications is a good thing. It shows that Arab residents in Jerusalem finally are beginning to understand that the status of the city is not going to change. And Israel is working to expedite these applications, another good sign. Since turnout of Arab residents of Jerusalem is very low in municipal elections, they obviously do not care much about voting in national elections, and since the "surge" in applications remains so low, they obviously are not troubled by the fact that if they leave Israel for too long, they could lose their residency permit. While you are clearly passionate about citizenship, the Arab residents in Jerusalem are clearly not, so if you are not speaking out for them, why are you speaking out about this?

I'm going to ask again - how do you know this? Israel hasn't exactly accepted the plan either. From my point of view - they are using it as a means of validating annexation. Beyond that - what are they doing?

So how do you know they are only annexing according to what is laid out in that plan? All I've seen so far is what Netanyahu stated in the fall. If you have a source, I'd be interested in reading it.

On the applications - I agree with your assessment (per the bolded).

I don't think you can claim that they don't care about the ability to be able to leave and lose their residency permits because they simply don't leave. There have been numerous court cases over this and how it has caused problems, particularly if they have family also in the West Bank.

I also am not sure that you are correct on those that want to request citizenship being so low (just a few thousand).

This is from 2017: East Jerusalem: Palestinians still want to become Israeli citizens

Since Trump’s declaration on Dec. 7, a long line of Palestinians seeking citizenship curls out daily from the Israeli Interior Ministry’s office in East Jerusalem, which is predominantly Arab and claimed by Palestinian leaders as the future capital of their own independent state.

The line stems from a social media news prank that claimed Israel was “imposing” citizenship on all of the city's Arab residents, who make up about 37% of Jerusalem's population.

The prank exploited real-life aspirations of Palestinians, most of whom still have not been granted citizenship and yearn for a better life here.

Ten years ago, it was taboo for Palestinians in Jerusalem to request Israeli citizenship, but now it is the norm, with thousands of new requests each year, accordiing to Israeli Interior Ministry figures. The wait time is about three years.

Increasing numbers of East Jerusalem Palestinians are choosing to live in Jewish neighborhoods. Separately, greater numbers of local Palestinians are choosing to send their children to Arabic-language schools using Israeli curricula.

Between the 2016 and the 2017 school years, there was a 14% increase in Arab students studying for Israeli high school enrollment exams, according to municipal statistics. Parents want their children to be able to access Israeli universities.​

Actually reading this makes me rethink some things in regards to what I said about Israel not want to grant citizenship or being arbitrary. Perhaps this is changing as Palestinians, living within Israel, are changing.

RoccoR I would be curious on your thoughts here, because I got the impression that you did not think citizenship would make a difference in how invested one was in a state (civil society) - if so many are wanting it - doesn't that imply a desire to do so?

If this is in response to the de-facto determination that Jerusalem is no longer on the table, then I think annexation might have the same affect in the WB. yes? no?

If you have been following Israeli news, then you know that Netanyahu is planning on annexing only the lands specified in Trump's plan. He has fully embraced it, he has praised it and the annexation is now being planned with Trump's representatives. Since the plan reserves the rest of Judea and Samaria for a Palestinian state if the Palestinians meet the conditions laid out in the plan to annex more than the plan specifies, would amount to rejecting the plan and that would mean the US would not recognize Israeli sovereignty over the land annexed.

I have not seen in the general news - do you have a link?

There simply is no rational basis for suspecting Netanyahu will annex more land than the plan specifies at this time. Nothing Netanyahu may have said before the plan was revealed is relevant.

The TOI link you provided contained a link to another article that defined the surge. It went from a few hundred applying for citizenship to a little less than two thousand. A surge compared to the number that were applying before but not compared to the population of Palestinians in Jerusalem. You mentioned a friend who is a British citizen but has been living in the US for many years with a green card. She cannot vote in elections in the US and if she were to leave for an extended period of time, she would lose her green card, yet these inconveniences don't seem to bother her. I suspect you see this issue as a backdoor to a one state agreement but all the polls of Palestinians show the overwhelming majority of them don't want one state so it shouldn't be a surprise to you that they have so little interest in Israeli citizenship.

There is a difference that I don't think you understand. The people I mentioned who have green cards - moved to the US and chose retain their original citizenship. The US did not take them over. The Palestinians being annexed are home. That is their homeland. Under PA rule - they (theoretically) had rights to vote for their representatives as citizens (realistically there hasn't been an election in years and it's overwhelmingly corrupt, no need to beat that dead horse). They are being annexed, by a foreign state, with no say in the matter. IMO, that means they should have a right to choose to become citizens of that new state, and have all the rights and responsibilities that entails (barring major crimes). If they choose.

On the one state agreement...vs two. What do the Palestinians want? A two-state solution, unless you go with the ideas flacaltenn proposed, which I like better than the Trump plan - or, you go with some version of what's proposed in the Trump plan, is no longer very tenable. From what I've read - support for a two state solution has been dropping both on the Palestinian side and on the Israeli side. What have you read?

The Palestinians are not being annexed, the land is being annexed. This is a good thing for the Palestinians living there. They have been living under Israeli civil and security governance since 1967, and now they will still be living under Israeli civil and security governance, but now they live under the Civil Administration, which is part of the IDF and after annexation, they will be living under the civil government the same as the rest of Israel. Their situation will be unchanged other than having access to all of Israel's considerable social services and being able to travel, work and live anywhere in Israel, things they have no access to now. They will remain citizens of the PA and will be able to vote in PA elections if they ever have them.

My point about your friend from the UK, is that she does not find not being able to vote in US elections or lose her green card if she leaves the US for too long sufficiently inconvenient to apply for US citizenship just as the vast majority of Palestinian residents in Israel do not find these things sufficiently inconvenient to apply for Israeli citizenship. You obviously have an agenda that is different from that of the Palestinian residents in Israel.

Netanyahu has been talking about the Trump plan and annexation frequently. If you do a Google search you will find lots of quotes on the subject. Here's one:

President Donald Trump’s “Deal of the Century”, said Netanyahu, “is the opportunity of a century for Israel. It enables Israel to secure our vital security and our vital national interests by recognizing Israel’s sovereignty over the Jordan Valley and over the Jewish communities that flourish in the heart of our ancestral homeland. It leaves open a path to a political settlement with the Palestinians, and it will help enable Israel to normalize our relations with our other Arab neighbors in the years ahead.”

“Last week, a joint US-Israel mapping committee began its work. It’s working as fast as possible to finish the job. I believe that work should be finished in the next couple of months. Israel would then apply its laws to all those territories that are designated by the Trump plan as being a part of Israel, and the United States will recognize those territories as part of Israel. This will be a truly historic day.”

“The map of Israel will change, the future of Israel will change, and it will change for the better,” said Netanyahu.

Netanyahu: Deal of the Century is the opportunity of a century for Israel - Jewish World

The Palestinians are not being annexed, the land is being annexed. This is a good thing for the Palestinians living there.

It is illegal to annex occupied territory.

No matter how important Trump thinks he is, he is not the arbiter of international law.

As a self-professed arbiter of international law it's odd you use cut and paste slogans without knowing what international law actually defines.

That would suggest you are not the arbiter of international law, no matter how many times you cut and paste slogans.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I'm going to ask again - how do you know this? Israel hasn't exactly accepted the plan either. From my point of view - they are using it as a means of validating annexation. Beyond that - what are they doing?

So how do you know they are only annexing according to what is laid out in that plan? All I've seen so far is what Netanyahu stated in the fall. If you have a source, I'd be interested in reading it.

On the applications - I agree with your assessment (per the bolded).

I don't think you can claim that they don't care about the ability to be able to leave and lose their residency permits because they simply don't leave. There have been numerous court cases over this and how it has caused problems, particularly if they have family also in the West Bank.

I also am not sure that you are correct on those that want to request citizenship being so low (just a few thousand).

This is from 2017: East Jerusalem: Palestinians still want to become Israeli citizens

Since Trump’s declaration on Dec. 7, a long line of Palestinians seeking citizenship curls out daily from the Israeli Interior Ministry’s office in East Jerusalem, which is predominantly Arab and claimed by Palestinian leaders as the future capital of their own independent state.

The line stems from a social media news prank that claimed Israel was “imposing” citizenship on all of the city's Arab residents, who make up about 37% of Jerusalem's population.

The prank exploited real-life aspirations of Palestinians, most of whom still have not been granted citizenship and yearn for a better life here.

Ten years ago, it was taboo for Palestinians in Jerusalem to request Israeli citizenship, but now it is the norm, with thousands of new requests each year, accordiing to Israeli Interior Ministry figures. The wait time is about three years.

Increasing numbers of East Jerusalem Palestinians are choosing to live in Jewish neighborhoods. Separately, greater numbers of local Palestinians are choosing to send their children to Arabic-language schools using Israeli curricula.

Between the 2016 and the 2017 school years, there was a 14% increase in Arab students studying for Israeli high school enrollment exams, according to municipal statistics. Parents want their children to be able to access Israeli universities.​

Actually reading this makes me rethink some things in regards to what I said about Israel not want to grant citizenship or being arbitrary. Perhaps this is changing as Palestinians, living within Israel, are changing.

RoccoR I would be curious on your thoughts here, because I got the impression that you did not think citizenship would make a difference in how invested one was in a state (civil society) - if so many are wanting it - doesn't that imply a desire to do so?

If this is in response to the de-facto determination that Jerusalem is no longer on the table, then I think annexation might have the same affect in the WB. yes? no?

If you have been following Israeli news, then you know that Netanyahu is planning on annexing only the lands specified in Trump's plan. He has fully embraced it, he has praised it and the annexation is now being planned with Trump's representatives. Since the plan reserves the rest of Judea and Samaria for a Palestinian state if the Palestinians meet the conditions laid out in the plan to annex more than the plan specifies, would amount to rejecting the plan and that would mean the US would not recognize Israeli sovereignty over the land annexed.

I have not seen in the general news - do you have a link?

There simply is no rational basis for suspecting Netanyahu will annex more land than the plan specifies at this time. Nothing Netanyahu may have said before the plan was revealed is relevant.

The TOI link you provided contained a link to another article that defined the surge. It went from a few hundred applying for citizenship to a little less than two thousand. A surge compared to the number that were applying before but not compared to the population of Palestinians in Jerusalem. You mentioned a friend who is a British citizen but has been living in the US for many years with a green card. She cannot vote in elections in the US and if she were to leave for an extended period of time, she would lose her green card, yet these inconveniences don't seem to bother her. I suspect you see this issue as a backdoor to a one state agreement but all the polls of Palestinians show the overwhelming majority of them don't want one state so it shouldn't be a surprise to you that they have so little interest in Israeli citizenship.

There is a difference that I don't think you understand. The people I mentioned who have green cards - moved to the US and chose retain their original citizenship. The US did not take them over. The Palestinians being annexed are home. That is their homeland. Under PA rule - they (theoretically) had rights to vote for their representatives as citizens (realistically there hasn't been an election in years and it's overwhelmingly corrupt, no need to beat that dead horse). They are being annexed, by a foreign state, with no say in the matter. IMO, that means they should have a right to choose to become citizens of that new state, and have all the rights and responsibilities that entails (barring major crimes). If they choose.

On the one state agreement...vs two. What do the Palestinians want? A two-state solution, unless you go with the ideas flacaltenn proposed, which I like better than the Trump plan - or, you go with some version of what's proposed in the Trump plan, is no longer very tenable. From what I've read - support for a two state solution has been dropping both on the Palestinian side and on the Israeli side. What have you read?

The Palestinians are not being annexed, the land is being annexed. This is a good thing for the Palestinians living there. They have been living under Israeli civil and security governance since 1967, and now they will still be living under Israeli civil and security governance, but now they live under the Civil Administration, which is part of the IDF and after annexation, they will be living under the civil government the same as the rest of Israel. Their situation will be unchanged other than having access to all of Israel's considerable social services and being able to travel, work and live anywhere in Israel, things they have no access to now. They will remain citizens of the PA and will be able to vote in PA elections if they ever have them.

My point about your friend from the UK, is that she does not find not being able to vote in US elections or lose her green card if she leaves the US for too long sufficiently inconvenient to apply for US citizenship just as the vast majority of Palestinian residents in Israel do not find these things sufficiently inconvenient to apply for Israeli citizenship. You obviously have an agenda that is different from that of the Palestinian residents in Israel.

Netanyahu has been talking about the Trump plan and annexation frequently. If you do a Google search you will find lots of quotes on the subject. Here's one:

President Donald Trump’s “Deal of the Century”, said Netanyahu, “is the opportunity of a century for Israel. It enables Israel to secure our vital security and our vital national interests by recognizing Israel’s sovereignty over the Jordan Valley and over the Jewish communities that flourish in the heart of our ancestral homeland. It leaves open a path to a political settlement with the Palestinians, and it will help enable Israel to normalize our relations with our other Arab neighbors in the years ahead.”

“Last week, a joint US-Israel mapping committee began its work. It’s working as fast as possible to finish the job. I believe that work should be finished in the next couple of months. Israel would then apply its laws to all those territories that are designated by the Trump plan as being a part of Israel, and the United States will recognize those territories as part of Israel. This will be a truly historic day.”

“The map of Israel will change, the future of Israel will change, and it will change for the better,” said Netanyahu.

Netanyahu: Deal of the Century is the opportunity of a century for Israel - Jewish World

The Palestinians are not being annexed, the land is being annexed. This is a good thing for the Palestinians living there.

It is illegal to annex occupied territory.

No matter how important Trump thinks he is, he is not the arbiter of international law.

As a self-professed arbiter of international law it's odd you use cut and paste slogans without knowing what international law actually defines.

That would suggest you are not the arbiter of international law, no matter how many times you cut and paste slogans.

Its true, look it up.

Of course you won't. Zionists prefer to be stupid.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ P F Tinmore,

I'm never really sure when you think you know something, as distinguished from, actually knowing something.

It is illegal to annex occupied territory.
No matter how important Trump thinks he is, he is not the arbiter of international law.

(QUESTION)

What actual "law" (in force) are you citing when you say this?


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Hollie]

I'm going to ask again - how do you know this? Israel hasn't exactly accepted the plan either. From my point of view - they are using it as a means of validating annexation. Beyond that - what are they doing?

So how do you know they are only annexing according to what is laid out in that plan? All I've seen so far is what Netanyahu stated in the fall. If you have a source, I'd be interested in reading it.

On the applications - I agree with your assessment (per the bolded).

I don't think you can claim that they don't care about the ability to be able to leave and lose their residency permits because they simply don't leave. There have been numerous court cases over this and how it has caused problems, particularly if they have family also in the West Bank.

I also am not sure that you are correct on those that want to request citizenship being so low (just a few thousand).

This is from 2017: East Jerusalem: Palestinians still want to become Israeli citizens

Since Trump’s declaration on Dec. 7, a long line of Palestinians seeking citizenship curls out daily from the Israeli Interior Ministry’s office in East Jerusalem, which is predominantly Arab and claimed by Palestinian leaders as the future capital of their own independent state.

The line stems from a social media news prank that claimed Israel was “imposing” citizenship on all of the city's Arab residents, who make up about 37% of Jerusalem's population.

The prank exploited real-life aspirations of Palestinians, most of whom still have not been granted citizenship and yearn for a better life here.

Ten years ago, it was taboo for Palestinians in Jerusalem to request Israeli citizenship, but now it is the norm, with thousands of new requests each year, accordiing to Israeli Interior Ministry figures. The wait time is about three years.

Increasing numbers of East Jerusalem Palestinians are choosing to live in Jewish neighborhoods. Separately, greater numbers of local Palestinians are choosing to send their children to Arabic-language schools using Israeli curricula.

Between the 2016 and the 2017 school years, there was a 14% increase in Arab students studying for Israeli high school enrollment exams, according to municipal statistics. Parents want their children to be able to access Israeli universities.​

Actually reading this makes me rethink some things in regards to what I said about Israel not want to grant citizenship or being arbitrary. Perhaps this is changing as Palestinians, living within Israel, are changing.

RoccoR I would be curious on your thoughts here, because I got the impression that you did not think citizenship would make a difference in how invested one was in a state (civil society) - if so many are wanting it - doesn't that imply a desire to do so?

If this is in response to the de-facto determination that Jerusalem is no longer on the table, then I think annexation might have the same affect in the WB. yes? no?

If you have been following Israeli news, then you know that Netanyahu is planning on annexing only the lands specified in Trump's plan. He has fully embraced it, he has praised it and the annexation is now being planned with Trump's representatives. Since the plan reserves the rest of Judea and Samaria for a Palestinian state if the Palestinians meet the conditions laid out in the plan to annex more than the plan specifies, would amount to rejecting the plan and that would mean the US would not recognize Israeli sovereignty over the land annexed.

I have not seen in the general news - do you have a link?

There simply is no rational basis for suspecting Netanyahu will annex more land than the plan specifies at this time. Nothing Netanyahu may have said before the plan was revealed is relevant.

The TOI link you provided contained a link to another article that defined the surge. It went from a few hundred applying for citizenship to a little less than two thousand. A surge compared to the number that were applying before but not compared to the population of Palestinians in Jerusalem. You mentioned a friend who is a British citizen but has been living in the US for many years with a green card. She cannot vote in elections in the US and if she were to leave for an extended period of time, she would lose her green card, yet these inconveniences don't seem to bother her. I suspect you see this issue as a backdoor to a one state agreement but all the polls of Palestinians show the overwhelming majority of them don't want one state so it shouldn't be a surprise to you that they have so little interest in Israeli citizenship.

There is a difference that I don't think you understand. The people I mentioned who have green cards - moved to the US and chose retain their original citizenship. The US did not take them over. The Palestinians being annexed are home. That is their homeland. Under PA rule - they (theoretically) had rights to vote for their representatives as citizens (realistically there hasn't been an election in years and it's overwhelmingly corrupt, no need to beat that dead horse). They are being annexed, by a foreign state, with no say in the matter. IMO, that means they should have a right to choose to become citizens of that new state, and have all the rights and responsibilities that entails (barring major crimes). If they choose.

On the one state agreement...vs two. What do the Palestinians want? A two-state solution, unless you go with the ideas flacaltenn proposed, which I like better than the Trump plan - or, you go with some version of what's proposed in the Trump plan, is no longer very tenable. From what I've read - support for a two state solution has been dropping both on the Palestinian side and on the Israeli side. What have you read?

The Palestinians are not being annexed, the land is being annexed. This is a good thing for the Palestinians living there. They have been living under Israeli civil and security governance since 1967, and now they will still be living under Israeli civil and security governance, but now they live under the Civil Administration, which is part of the IDF and after annexation, they will be living under the civil government the same as the rest of Israel. Their situation will be unchanged other than having access to all of Israel's considerable social services and being able to travel, work and live anywhere in Israel, things they have no access to now. They will remain citizens of the PA and will be able to vote in PA elections if they ever have them.

My point about your friend from the UK, is that she does not find not being able to vote in US elections or lose her green card if she leaves the US for too long sufficiently inconvenient to apply for US citizenship just as the vast majority of Palestinian residents in Israel do not find these things sufficiently inconvenient to apply for Israeli citizenship. You obviously have an agenda that is different from that of the Palestinian residents in Israel.

Netanyahu has been talking about the Trump plan and annexation frequently. If you do a Google search you will find lots of quotes on the subject. Here's one:

President Donald Trump’s “Deal of the Century”, said Netanyahu, “is the opportunity of a century for Israel. It enables Israel to secure our vital security and our vital national interests by recognizing Israel’s sovereignty over the Jordan Valley and over the Jewish communities that flourish in the heart of our ancestral homeland. It leaves open a path to a political settlement with the Palestinians, and it will help enable Israel to normalize our relations with our other Arab neighbors in the years ahead.”

“Last week, a joint US-Israel mapping committee began its work. It’s working as fast as possible to finish the job. I believe that work should be finished in the next couple of months. Israel would then apply its laws to all those territories that are designated by the Trump plan as being a part of Israel, and the United States will recognize those territories as part of Israel. This will be a truly historic day.”

“The map of Israel will change, the future of Israel will change, and it will change for the better,” said Netanyahu.

Netanyahu: Deal of the Century is the opportunity of a century for Israel - Jewish World

The Palestinians are not being annexed, the land is being annexed. This is a good thing for the Palestinians living there.

It is illegal to annex occupied territory.

No matter how important Trump thinks he is, he is not the arbiter of international law.

As a self-professed arbiter of international law it's odd you use cut and paste slogans without knowing what international law actually defines.

That would suggest you are not the arbiter of international law, no matter how many times you cut and paste slogans.

Its true, look it up.

Of course you won't. Zionists prefer to be stupid.

I looked it up. Apparently you didn’t.

You claim to cite international law yet you can’t cite such international law.

Rather than getting angry and emotive, cite the relevant law.

Link?

 

[Hollie]

And how do you know this?

Their permanent citizenship status can be revoked if they leave the country for more than 7 years. One major difference from being a citizen. They can't leave, be an expat, and come back.

Also - you ignored the that in the article I linked to (dated within the past year) - many more Palestinians ARE seeking citizenship and Israel is making a concerted effort to shorten the process. That says to me there is a demand, at least in Jerusalem, and Israel is attempting to make it quicker. How do you know that the Palestinians in the annexed area do not want the same thing? And since we have no idea what Netanyahu plans on annexing, and you've presented nothing to indicate what it is yet - I think it's fair to assume he is standing by his September promise.

First, we know exactly what areas Israel plans on annexing because they are exactly the areas specified in President Trump's plan. US officials are in Israel now working out exactly how the process will go forward. Israel is eager for US recognition of sovereignty over the new lands, so it will not diverge from what the US has approved at this time.

The "surge" in applications the article reports is still just a few thousand out of 350,000, less than 1%, so interest in Israeli citizenship continues to be very low among Arab residents. This uptick in applications is a good thing. It shows that Arab residents in Jerusalem finally are beginning to understand that the status of the city is not going to change. And Israel is working to expedite these applications, another good sign. Since turnout of Arab residents of Jerusalem is very low in municipal elections, they obviously do not care much about voting in national elections, and since the "surge" in applications remains so low, they obviously are not troubled by the fact that if they leave Israel for too long, they could lose their residency permit. While you are clearly passionate about citizenship, the Arab residents in Jerusalem are clearly not, so if you are not speaking out for them, why are you speaking out about this?

I'm going to ask again - how do you know this? Israel hasn't exactly accepted the plan either. From my point of view - they are using it as a means of validating annexation. Beyond that - what are they doing?

So how do you know they are only annexing according to what is laid out in that plan? All I've seen so far is what Netanyahu stated in the fall. If you have a source, I'd be interested in reading it.

On the applications - I agree with your assessment (per the bolded).

I don't think you can claim that they don't care about the ability to be able to leave and lose their residency permits because they simply don't leave. There have been numerous court cases over this and how it has caused problems, particularly if they have family also in the West Bank.

I also am not sure that you are correct on those that want to request citizenship being so low (just a few thousand).

This is from 2017: East Jerusalem: Palestinians still want to become Israeli citizens

Since Trump’s declaration on Dec. 7, a long line of Palestinians seeking citizenship curls out daily from the Israeli Interior Ministry’s office in East Jerusalem, which is predominantly Arab and claimed by Palestinian leaders as the future capital of their own independent state.

The line stems from a social media news prank that claimed Israel was “imposing” citizenship on all of the city's Arab residents, who make up about 37% of Jerusalem's population.

The prank exploited real-life aspirations of Palestinians, most of whom still have not been granted citizenship and yearn for a better life here.

Ten years ago, it was taboo for Palestinians in Jerusalem to request Israeli citizenship, but now it is the norm, with thousands of new requests each year, accordiing to Israeli Interior Ministry figures. The wait time is about three years.

Increasing numbers of East Jerusalem Palestinians are choosing to live in Jewish neighborhoods. Separately, greater numbers of local Palestinians are choosing to send their children to Arabic-language schools using Israeli curricula.

Between the 2016 and the 2017 school years, there was a 14% increase in Arab students studying for Israeli high school enrollment exams, according to municipal statistics. Parents want their children to be able to access Israeli universities.​

Actually reading this makes me rethink some things in regards to what I said about Israel not want to grant citizenship or being arbitrary. Perhaps this is changing as Palestinians, living within Israel, are changing.

RoccoR I would be curious on your thoughts here, because I got the impression that you did not think citizenship would make a difference in how invested one was in a state (civil society) - if so many are wanting it - doesn't that imply a desire to do so?

If this is in response to the de-facto determination that Jerusalem is no longer on the table, then I think annexation might have the same affect in the WB. yes? no?

That's great input.. Wasn't aware of the increased "assimilation" desires of the Palis, but there's a small fraction will to go those lengths to KEEP the relatively high level of prosperity that they currently have..

There's an increasing "odor" that all the parties have given up.. And my take is that the Palestinians are NOT thrilled by all the "nation state actors" SUGGESTING what they need to do.. ALL of these failed plans EXPECT at the get-go that the Palis will adopt some form of "nation state" govt and look and ACT like all the other "nation states" on the planet.. THIS is untenable to the majority of them who have REJECTED both the "Arafat model" and the "PA model"...

They DO NOT want to be FORCED to form coalitions between Fatah and Hamas and pretend it's any kind of "unity government".. The boundaries of their tribal, familiar, and locality allegiances just get too strained.. They see only GRAFT AND CORRUPTION resulting from a such a construct..

What I THINK they want is to live their lives with the freedom to TRAVEL and TRADE and have enough leadership at the local levels to provide that security and infrastructure.. Doubt they are even INSISTENT on "right of return" if it applies GENERALLY to ANYONE that claims "Palestinian citzenship" not CURRENTLY in Palestine.

If the annexation is a MUTUAL effort to establish LIVABLE and relatively free lives and PROVIDES that freedom to trade and travel and relative AUTONOMY on the local scale --- I think that's where this HAS to head towards...

Wasn't aware of the increased "assimilation" desires of the Palis, but there's a small fraction will to go those lengths to KEEP the relatively high level of prosperity that they currently have..

It is a decision forced upon them in order to continue living in their homeland. Should they seek citizenship in the occupation or risk being ethnically cleansed as many Jerusalemites have.

Claiming to be helpless is an excuse that’s getting old.

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ P F Tinmore,

I'm never really sure when you think you know something, as distinguished from, actually knowing something.

It is illegal to annex occupied territory.
No matter how important Trump thinks he is, he is not the arbiter of international law.

(QUESTION)

What actual "law" (in force) are you citing when you say this?


Most Respectfully,
R

Of all people, Rocco, you should know this.

These rules underline the basic concern of the law of occupation, which is to maintain the status quo ante (i.e. as it was before) in the occupied territory as far as is practically possible. This makes sense. The annexation of conquered territory is prohibited by international law. This necessarily means that if one State achieves power over parts of another State’s territory by force or threat of force, the situation must be considered temporary by international law.

https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/assets/files/other/law9_final.pdf​

 

[P F Tinmore]

Brazilian President Bolsonaro 'lauds' US peace plan
Trump hosts Bolsonaro at Mar-a-Lago resort in Florida, where the 2 discuss a range of issues.

President Donald Trump on Saturday hosted Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro for dinner at his Mar-a-Lago resort in Florida, where they spoke about topics including Venezuela, a future trade deal, the Middle East and collaboration in military research.

A joint statement released by the two leaders after the meeting said they had "reaffirmed the strategic alliance between the United States and Brazil, deepening the partnership between their two countries. The two leaders focused on increasing economic prosperity, strengthening democracy, and promoting peace and security."

"President Trump and President Bolsonaro reiterated their countries’ support for democracy in the region, including Interim President of Venezuela Juan Guaidó and the democratically elected Venezuelan National Assembly as they work to restore constitutional order in Venezuela. The two leaders also discussed supporting Bolivia’s efforts to conduct free and fair elections.

"President Trump and President Bolsonaro reiterated their commitment to peace and prosperity in the Middle East, and President Bolsonaro lauded the United States’ vision for the peaceful coexistence of the State of Israel and a Palestinian state.

"As leaders of the two largest economies in the hemisphere, President Trump and President Bolsonaro noted the potential benefits to American and Brazilian workers and businesses of growing the bilateral economic relationship. To this end, they instructed their trade officials to deepen discussions for a bilateral trade package this year, with a view towards intensifying the economic partnership between their two countries.

"The two leaders also discussed expediting Brazil’s participation in the Trusted Trader program, to streamline commerce between both countries by ensuring the security and safety of imported goods, with a goal of program entry in 2021.

"President Trump reiterated the United States’ support for Brazil beginning the accession process to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) and urges its OECD partners to work with the United States towards this goal, which will help grow the Brazilian economy and its competitiveness.

"The two leaders noted that their teams are finalizing other areas of bilateral cooperation, including collaboration in military research and development and signing an América Cresce Memorandum of Understanding to stimulate economic development in the hemisphere. They also lauded other areas of ongoing cooperation such as aerospace, science and technology, health, and innovation.

"Both presidents also discussed the Trillion Trees Initiative, an effort seeking to re-grow, save from loss, and better protect one trillion trees around the world by 2050, through collective action by all sectors of society. The two leaders also welcomed the signing of the United States-Brazil Working Plan for Science and Technology 2020-2023 as a key instrument for joint research and promotion of new technologies."

Arutz Shev'a

Birds of a feather...

 

[P F Tinmore]

Yes... There is little doubt that the Arab Palestinians lacked the capacity and ability to develop a leadership that was actually capable of putting together a provisional government that was functional.

You are forgetting about the US coup in Palestine that installed Fatah (The losers of the elections.) in the West Bank.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ P F Tinmore,

Oh yes! I know this. And you did not answer the question...

Of all people, Rocco, you should know this.

These rules underline the basic concern of the law of occupation, which is to maintain the status quo ante (i.e. as it was before) in the occupied territory as far as is practically possible. This makes sense. The annexation of conquered territory is prohibited by international law. This necessarily means that if one State achieves power over parts of another State’s territory by force or threat of force, the situation must be considered temporary by international law.

https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/assets/files/other/law9_final.pdf​

(ASKING THE QUESTION A G A I N)

What actual "law" (in force) are you citing when you say this?

(COMMENT)

You cited a "national level" (not an international) lesson plan. And you will notice that the paragraph you cited on Slide 9-9 does NOT have an international law citation like the interpretations above and below. Why? Because that is an "interpretation" and NOT "LAW."

​

In my day, this was often referred to as "Hip Pocket Training" by Sergeants.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ P F Tinmore,

Was there a "coup?"

You are forgetting about the US coup in Palestine that installed Fatah (The losers of the elections.) in the West Bank.

(COMMENT)

Damn, I missed that...


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Hollie]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ P F Tinmore,

I'm never really sure when you think you know something, as distinguished from, actually knowing something.

It is illegal to annex occupied territory.
No matter how important Trump thinks he is, he is not the arbiter of international law.

(QUESTION)

What actual "law" (in force) are you citing when you say this?


Most Respectfully,
R

Of all people, Rocco, you should know this.

These rules underline the basic concern of the law of occupation, which is to maintain the status quo ante (i.e. as it was before) in the occupied territory as far as is practically possible. This makes sense. The annexation of conquered territory is prohibited by international law. This necessarily means that if one State achieves power over parts of another State’s territory by force or threat of force, the situation must be considered temporary by international law.

https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/assets/files/other/law9_final.pdf​

The Red Cross cut and paste is one you have used many time before in a failed attempt to support a specious clsim.

The Red Cross is not a law making body. The bolded text identifies States.

Still.....

Link?

 

[Hollie]

Yes... There is little doubt that the Arab Palestinians lacked the capacity and ability to develop a leadership that was actually capable of putting together a provisional government that was functional.

You are forgetting about the US coup in Palestine that installed Fatah (The losers of the elections.) in the West Bank.

In your islamic part of the world, terms, definitions and a reality based worldview account for very little.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

First, we know exactly what areas Israel plans on annexing because they are exactly the areas specified in President Trump's plan. US officials are in Israel now working out exactly how the process will go forward. Israel is eager for US recognition of sovereignty over the new lands, so it will not diverge from what the US has approved at this time.

The "surge" in applications the article reports is still just a few thousand out of 350,000, less than 1%, so interest in Israeli citizenship continues to be very low among Arab residents. This uptick in applications is a good thing. It shows that Arab residents in Jerusalem finally are beginning to understand that the status of the city is not going to change. And Israel is working to expedite these applications, another good sign. Since turnout of Arab residents of Jerusalem is very low in municipal elections, they obviously do not care much about voting in national elections, and since the "surge" in applications remains so low, they obviously are not troubled by the fact that if they leave Israel for too long, they could lose their residency permit. While you are clearly passionate about citizenship, the Arab residents in Jerusalem are clearly not, so if you are not speaking out for them, why are you speaking out about this?

I'm going to ask again - how do you know this? Israel hasn't exactly accepted the plan either. From my point of view - they are using it as a means of validating annexation. Beyond that - what are they doing?

So how do you know they are only annexing according to what is laid out in that plan? All I've seen so far is what Netanyahu stated in the fall. If you have a source, I'd be interested in reading it.

On the applications - I agree with your assessment (per the bolded).

I don't think you can claim that they don't care about the ability to be able to leave and lose their residency permits because they simply don't leave. There have been numerous court cases over this and how it has caused problems, particularly if they have family also in the West Bank.

I also am not sure that you are correct on those that want to request citizenship being so low (just a few thousand).

This is from 2017: East Jerusalem: Palestinians still want to become Israeli citizens

Since Trump’s declaration on Dec. 7, a long line of Palestinians seeking citizenship curls out daily from the Israeli Interior Ministry’s office in East Jerusalem, which is predominantly Arab and claimed by Palestinian leaders as the future capital of their own independent state.

The line stems from a social media news prank that claimed Israel was “imposing” citizenship on all of the city's Arab residents, who make up about 37% of Jerusalem's population.

The prank exploited real-life aspirations of Palestinians, most of whom still have not been granted citizenship and yearn for a better life here.

Ten years ago, it was taboo for Palestinians in Jerusalem to request Israeli citizenship, but now it is the norm, with thousands of new requests each year, accordiing to Israeli Interior Ministry figures. The wait time is about three years.

Increasing numbers of East Jerusalem Palestinians are choosing to live in Jewish neighborhoods. Separately, greater numbers of local Palestinians are choosing to send their children to Arabic-language schools using Israeli curricula.

Between the 2016 and the 2017 school years, there was a 14% increase in Arab students studying for Israeli high school enrollment exams, according to municipal statistics. Parents want their children to be able to access Israeli universities.​

Actually reading this makes me rethink some things in regards to what I said about Israel not want to grant citizenship or being arbitrary. Perhaps this is changing as Palestinians, living within Israel, are changing.

RoccoR I would be curious on your thoughts here, because I got the impression that you did not think citizenship would make a difference in how invested one was in a state (civil society) - if so many are wanting it - doesn't that imply a desire to do so?

If this is in response to the de-facto determination that Jerusalem is no longer on the table, then I think annexation might have the same affect in the WB. yes? no?

If you have been following Israeli news, then you know that Netanyahu is planning on annexing only the lands specified in Trump's plan. He has fully embraced it, he has praised it and the annexation is now being planned with Trump's representatives. Since the plan reserves the rest of Judea and Samaria for a Palestinian state if the Palestinians meet the conditions laid out in the plan to annex more than the plan specifies, would amount to rejecting the plan and that would mean the US would not recognize Israeli sovereignty over the land annexed.

I have not seen in the general news - do you have a link?

There simply is no rational basis for suspecting Netanyahu will annex more land than the plan specifies at this time. Nothing Netanyahu may have said before the plan was revealed is relevant.

The TOI link you provided contained a link to another article that defined the surge. It went from a few hundred applying for citizenship to a little less than two thousand. A surge compared to the number that were applying before but not compared to the population of Palestinians in Jerusalem. You mentioned a friend who is a British citizen but has been living in the US for many years with a green card. She cannot vote in elections in the US and if she were to leave for an extended period of time, she would lose her green card, yet these inconveniences don't seem to bother her. I suspect you see this issue as a backdoor to a one state agreement but all the polls of Palestinians show the overwhelming majority of them don't want one state so it shouldn't be a surprise to you that they have so little interest in Israeli citizenship.

There is a difference that I don't think you understand. The people I mentioned who have green cards - moved to the US and chose retain their original citizenship. The US did not take them over. The Palestinians being annexed are home. That is their homeland. Under PA rule - they (theoretically) had rights to vote for their representatives as citizens (realistically there hasn't been an election in years and it's overwhelmingly corrupt, no need to beat that dead horse). They are being annexed, by a foreign state, with no say in the matter. IMO, that means they should have a right to choose to become citizens of that new state, and have all the rights and responsibilities that entails (barring major crimes). If they choose.

On the one state agreement...vs two. What do the Palestinians want? A two-state solution, unless you go with the ideas flacaltenn proposed, which I like better than the Trump plan - or, you go with some version of what's proposed in the Trump plan, is no longer very tenable. From what I've read - support for a two state solution has been dropping both on the Palestinian side and on the Israeli side. What have you read?

The Palestinians are not being annexed, the land is being annexed. This is a good thing for the Palestinians living there. They have been living under Israeli civil and security governance since 1967, and now they will still be living under Israeli civil and security governance, but now they live under the Civil Administration, which is part of the IDF and after annexation, they will be living under the civil government the same as the rest of Israel. Their situation will be unchanged other than having access to all of Israel's considerable social services and being able to travel, work and live anywhere in Israel, things they have no access to now. They will remain citizens of the PA and will be able to vote in PA elections if they ever have them.

My point about your friend from the UK, is that she does not find not being able to vote in US elections or lose her green card if she leaves the US for too long sufficiently inconvenient to apply for US citizenship just as the vast majority of Palestinian residents in Israel do not find these things sufficiently inconvenient to apply for Israeli citizenship. You obviously have an agenda that is different from that of the Palestinian residents in Israel.

Netanyahu has been talking about the Trump plan and annexation frequently. If you do a Google search you will find lots of quotes on the subject. Here's one:

President Donald Trump’s “Deal of the Century”, said Netanyahu, “is the opportunity of a century for Israel. It enables Israel to secure our vital security and our vital national interests by recognizing Israel’s sovereignty over the Jordan Valley and over the Jewish communities that flourish in the heart of our ancestral homeland. It leaves open a path to a political settlement with the Palestinians, and it will help enable Israel to normalize our relations with our other Arab neighbors in the years ahead.”

“Last week, a joint US-Israel mapping committee began its work. It’s working as fast as possible to finish the job. I believe that work should be finished in the next couple of months. Israel would then apply its laws to all those territories that are designated by the Trump plan as being a part of Israel, and the United States will recognize those territories as part of Israel. This will be a truly historic day.”

“The map of Israel will change, the future of Israel will change, and it will change for the better,” said Netanyahu.

Netanyahu: Deal of the Century is the opportunity of a century for Israel - Jewish World

The Palestinians are not being annexed, the land is being annexed. This is a good thing for the Palestinians living there.

It is illegal to annex occupied territory.

No matter how important Trump thinks he is, he is not the arbiter of international law.

It is illegal to annex occupied territory.

Who owns the territory before it is annexed?

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ P F Tinmore,

Was there a "coup?"

You are forgetting about the US coup in Palestine that installed Fatah (The losers of the elections.) in the West Bank.

(COMMENT)

Damn, I missed that...


Most Respectfully,
R

Damn, I missed that...

Indeed you did. Israeli propaganda (your favorite source of information.) says that a Hamas coup took over Gaza.

Of course that is just bullshit.