Trickle-Up Recession: The 1% Getting Real About the Permanent Fix for the Economy

[Indeependent]

They're not automating, they're bringing in "highly skilled" Indians to stack shelves.

No, they're bringing in highly educated Indians to write code.

Which is why IBM, Oracle and MS are kicking technological ass?
You've got to be kidding.

Those are the innovators in the IT world. I'm talking about the companies that use their products. Indian programmers have a very strong presence in nearly every IT department in the country, and for good reason. They're well educated, do good work and don't charge as much for their services as American programmers. That's one reason why I transferred to Database Administration.

"Those are the innovators in the IT world"
You missed my point...
IBM, MS and Oracle haven't innovated ANYTHING since the late 90s.
Nobody even knows who IBM or Oracle are except for people in their 50s or older.
And MS keeps offering up even shitter Indian written code with every version of every product they release.

"don't charge as much for their services as American programmers"
That's the key line.

Their products suck and that's why so many software products have disappeared from the market.
I bet you can't name one innovation from any company other than Apple.
Go ahead, I dare you.
Even the H1-Bs at Google are screwing up Android.

Microsoft SQL Server.
Oracle Database Server.
IBM DB2.

These products are the backbone of thousands of corporations around the world for good reason, because they work. You seem to think that innovation began 5 years ago.

They were developed by the Americans who fired for "lacking the skill set" to use them.

 

[Silhouette]

The simple fact is that Universal Healthcare would immediately remove the burden from employers and businesses, allowing them to hire more people straight away. From there, the harvest of taxes from the sale of sodas, candy bars, sugar treats of all varieties, tobacco products and booze across the country begins to pool a vast resource for UH. Then the nominal co-pay each visit helps alleviate costs and discourages overuse of the system by hypochondriacs. People paying for their own private insurance suddenly have the equivalent of a 2nd mortgage freed up each month. They begin consuming more which will drive more sales which will drive more production which will drive more jobs.

From there, more working people each day is a new tax base for income taxes which also boost the economy. New startup businesses will no longer fear hiring more people for the health insurance issues. Someone getting hurt on the job won't bankrupt the company anymore; that fear is gone. Streamline costs, subsidize medical school, and limit malpractice suits and you will see our economy go from the red into the black.

Article I, section 8. It's there for all other services that save or protect human life. So the precedent is already set.

Microsoft SQL Server.
Oracle Database Server.
IBM DB2...These products are the backbone of thousands of corporations around the world for good reason, because they work. You seem to think that innovation began 5 years ago.

Innovation is what would increase exponentially if people with really good ideas weren't afraid of starting up a company because of the health & injury issues associated with employing people. UH would rescue our economy via rescuing innovation.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The simple fact is that Universal Healthcare would immediately remove the burden from employers and businesses, allowing them to hire more people straight away. From there, the harvest of taxes from the sale of sodas, candy bars, sugar treats of all varieties, tobacco products and booze across the country begins to pool a vast resource for UH. Then the nominal co-pay each visit helps alleviate costs and discourages overuse of the system by hypochondriacs. People paying for their own private insurance suddenly have the equivalent of a 2nd mortgage freed up each month. They begin consuming more which will drive more sales which will drive more production which will drive more jobs.

From there, more working people each day is a new tax base for income taxes which also boost the economy. New startup businesses will no longer fear hiring more people for the health insurance issues. Someone getting hurt on the job won't bankrupt the company anymore; that fear is gone. Streamline costs, subsidize medical school, and limit malpractice suits and you will see our economy go from the red into the black.

Article I, section 8. It's there for all other services that save or protect human life. So the precedent is already set.

Microsoft SQL Server.
Oracle Database Server.
IBM DB2...These products are the backbone of thousands of corporations around the world for good reason, because they work. You seem to think that innovation began 5 years ago.

Innovation is what would increase exponentially if people with really good ideas weren't afraid of starting up a company because of the health & injury issues associated with employing people. UH would rescue our economy via rescuing innovation.

From there, the harvest of taxes from the sale of sodas, candy bars, sugar treats of all varieties, tobacco products and booze across the country begins to pool a vast resource for UH.

Until you explain how much money needs to be raised by your new "sin tax", we can't discuss the plausibility of your idea.

How much money do we need?

 

[Silhouette]

From there, the harvest of taxes from the sale of sodas, candy bars, sugar treats of all varieties, tobacco products and booze across the country begins to pool a vast resource for UH.

Until you explain how much money needs to be raised by your new "sin tax", we can't discuss the plausibility of your idea.

How much money do we need?

1st, they're not "sin taxes". Sugar, tobacco and booze have been exhaustively proven to kill more people in the US than all the wars combined. So it's only natural that those things pick up the tab for healthcare. I like things that make pragmatic sense.

Second, it will cost a lot of money for UH. But then again, think of how many times a day a soda bottle, pack of smokes or a 6-pack of suds crosses a cash register scanner? Also, did you forget about the nominal co-pays at each doctor visit to discourage overuse? The medical malpractice reform component? The cost reduction from subsidizing medical school? Did you forget to include that? You did! Aw, well now you can include it..

 

[Dragonlady]

I don't know you need humans bolting down seats? Someone has to Design, build, program, install, maintain, monitor, order all of those Automation machines. Higher pay, better jobs. This allows all that human labor to be used elsewhere.

Am I way wrong?

No, but there is a shortage of trained labor to do these jobs. Employers are importing workers in some fields because American workers lack the education or the training. Americans are unwilling to use taxpayer dollars for training or to provide incentives for employers to hire and train. But they are willing to cut taxes for corporations, even though corporations are awash in cash and still not spending it on increasing or improving their labor force.

The problem is that not all government programs are a bad idea. Some even show a profit - that is they return more in tax dollars paid than they cost in tax dollars spent. But this is only true if the jobs being handed out result in the worker paying taxes. This notion of "earned income credits" is appalling. The idea that people who work a 40 hour week should be given wage subsidies taken out of the pockets of middle class Americans, because corporations don't want to pay a living wage? In Canada, they'd destroy any political party who tried to pull bullshit like that on the backs of the taxpayers.

 

[Silhouette]

^^ and all that would be solved by stimulating the economy using Universal Healthcare.

 

[Dragonlady]

Second, it will cost a lot of money for UH. But then again, think of how many times a day a soda bottle, pack of smokes or a 6-pack of suds crosses a cash register scanner? Also, did you forget about the nominal co-pays at each doctor visit to discourage overuse? The medical malpractice reform component? The cost reduction from subsidizing medical school? Did you forget to include that? You did! Aw, well now you can include it..

Are you aware that the AMA carefully controls the number of doctors coming out of medical schools so that there is always a shortage of physicians, thereby keeping their wages artificially higher? I therefore doubt your "subsidized med school" plan will get much support from the medical lobby. "Doctor shortages" could be wiped out by increasing the numbers of doctors graduating each year.

 

[LaDexter]

The simple fact is that Universal Healthcare would immediately remove the burden from employers and businesses, allowing them to hire more people straight away.

Transferring a cost from business to taxpayer does not make the cost disappear. Liberals have a hard time understanding this. Uncle Sam is not infinitely loaded with cash to steal, despite decades of Democrats doing just that...

 

[Silhouette]

The simple fact is that Universal Healthcare would immediately remove the burden from employers and businesses, allowing them to hire more people straight away.

Transferring a cost from business to taxpayer does not make the cost disappear. Liberals have a hard time understanding this. Uncle Sam is not infinitely loaded with cash to steal, despite decades of Democrats doing just that...

Nope. It's transferring the cost to sales of sodas, tobacco and booze. You play with that deadly trio, you pay. You don't have to buy any of those.

 

[LaDexter]

LOL!!!


Once again a liberal creates more business for lawyers by failing to understand markets and economics and setting the foundation for large black markets...

Booze and tobacco are taxed to the hilt. There already is a robust black market for cigarettes, and people are making their own moonshine in the South again...

A liberal simply thinks you just hike taxes and you get no change other than the tax rate and viola, more money to government. Reagan and Bill Clinton (Newt Gingrich really) proved that completely wrong, as is O by taxing companies like Burger King right out of the country.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

From there, the harvest of taxes from the sale of sodas, candy bars, sugar treats of all varieties, tobacco products and booze across the country begins to pool a vast resource for UH.

Until you explain how much money needs to be raised by your new "sin tax", we can't discuss the plausibility of your idea.

How much money do we need?

1st, they're not "sin taxes". Sugar, tobacco and booze have been exhaustively proven to kill more people in the US than all the wars combined. So it's only natural that those things pick up the tab for healthcare. I like things that make pragmatic sense.

Second, it will cost a lot of money for UH. But then again, think of how many times a day a soda bottle, pack of smokes or a 6-pack of suds crosses a cash register scanner? Also, did you forget about the nominal co-pays at each doctor visit to discourage overuse? The medical malpractice reform component? The cost reduction from subsidizing medical school? Did you forget to include that? You did! Aw, well now you can include it..

1st, they're not "sin taxes".

Right. You want to punish people who don't do or eat as you'd like.

How much money do we need to raise with your taxes?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The simple fact is that Universal Healthcare would immediately remove the burden from employers and businesses, allowing them to hire more people straight away.

Transferring a cost from business to taxpayer does not make the cost disappear. Liberals have a hard time understanding this. Uncle Sam is not infinitely loaded with cash to steal, despite decades of Democrats doing just that...

Transferring a cost from business to taxpayer does not make the cost disappear.

First thing you've said that makes sense.

 

[Silhouette]

The simple fact is that Universal Healthcare would immediately remove the burden from employers and businesses, allowing them to hire more people straight away. From there, the harvest of taxes from the sale of sodas, candy bars, sugar treats of all varieties, tobacco products and booze across the country begins to pool a vast resource for UH. Then the nominal co-pay each visit helps alleviate costs and discourages overuse of the system by hypochondriacs. People paying for their own private insurance suddenly have the equivalent of a 2nd mortgage freed up each month. They begin consuming more which will drive more sales which will drive more production which will drive more jobs.

From there, more working people each day is a new tax base for income taxes which also boost the economy. New startup businesses will no longer fear hiring more people for the health insurance issues. Someone getting hurt on the job won't bankrupt the company anymore; that fear is gone. Streamline costs, subsidize medical school, and limit malpractice suits and you will see our economy go from the red into the black.

Transferring a cost from business to taxpayer does not make the cost disappear. Liberals have a hard time understanding this. Uncle Sam is not infinitely loaded with cash to steal, despite decades of Democrats doing just that...

Transferring a cost from business to taxpayer does not make the cost disappear.

First thing you've said that makes sense.

Funny, I never thought of people buying sodas as "taxpayers at the register". But I guess they are. We tax them there on all sorts of things though already. Will we suddenly stop doing that? No, of course not. So if everyone agrees "yeah, I'll pay a little more for cokes, smokes or suds if it means my kids have free healthcare", then everyone agrees. Are you trying to save us from ourselves? We can "make this horrible blunder" if we so choose. So says Article I, Section 8:

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.."

 

[Andylusion]

I do not have to, because they didn't say that. You are just a liar.

I will leave a comment on the CNN App to address their error.

Now back to how Supply Side has created a whopping 1% success story.
I notice how you're avoiding this issue.

So I did a search of CNN, looking for any story about Apple, Taxes, and Ireland. Not one single story came up saying they paid zero tax. Not one.

Save your comments. You lied to cover your lie, and now are trying to deflect to a false argument.

No one anywhere mentioned Supply Side anything. And as for the 1% success story... most of America is the 1%. Like I said, two minimum wage workers at McDonald's, is the top 1% of wage earners on the face of the Earth.

Quite frankly, the standard of living the lowest class of people in our country, is above the middle class of most countries on this planet.

I notice how you're avoiding the facts.

I'm not avoiding any facts.
The fact is most people DO NOT know they are invested in the market.
By the way, how is it mathematically possible for most of anything to be the 1%.
That makes ZERO sense.

The vast majority of the people who live in this country, are the top 1% of wage earners in the world today.

In fact, the average welfare check, places you in the top 20%.

I like that...switch it from the US to the WORLD.
Not quite so clever as you think.
The problem is that Supply Side is turning the US INTO those other nations.
And, pray tell, who supplies the Welfare System?
Certainly not Microsoft.

This is a big pet peeve of mine. I'll warn you ahead of time, this will be a rant. I admit it openly. First though, yes Microsoft does, and most companies do. You realize that the water crisis in Flint Michigan, that up till about early this year, the combined donations of major corporation of free bottled water, was greater than that of the local government, the state government, and the Federal government... AND Charities... combined. The major corporations provided more than all the others COMBINED.

It's a fact.... the major corporate are the biggest suppliers of charity. Similarly, the wealthy give far more to charity, than the left-wing. In fact, conservatives routinely out donate to charity, than the left-wing has, by 50% to 100% more. But lets move on....

I've always said the world. Americans are so self-centered, and selfish, and myopic. I have never met a person yet... not one... who said he's rich. I've met people that make more money in one year, than I do in 3 years.... and no, they are not the rich no no... it's so and so, and so and so, say's he's not the rich, it's that doctor over they, and the doctor says he's not rich, it's the CEOs, and the CEOs say they are not rich, it's Elon Musk, and Bill Gates, and Warren Buffet.

Everyone, everywhere, want to proclaim themselves the poor and lower class.

Well, you are all full of crap. There are 7 Billion other people in the world, who would look at a person working at Wendy's, and think it was like life styles of the rich and famous.

I was listening to this this BBC documentary about musicians in West African countries. These musicians would release some music, and end up invited to the US, and talk with US musicians. And then listen to these Americans talk about how poor they were, and had to buy a used guitar, or used drum set. They would laugh.... they had to literally have to share one guitar, with only three strings, with 5 people. Owning an actual functional instrument, would be like winning the lottery.... and here Americans would complain because they couldn't afford something new?

Let me give you a more personal example......

One of the churches ran a charity I support. The charity operates a home for abused children in Mexico. We sent one of our men down there, to help out at the charity. There was a guy there, at this charity, who had been working there for over a year. This Mexican man, asked our guy, to come to his home for dinner, because he wanted to celebrate a great blessing for his family.

So he hops on the back of this moped (the cheap two wheeled motor bikes the poor in Mexico use), and ended up at this guys home.... which turned out to be a refrigerator box. The blessing this man was celebrating.... he got a new job which allowed him to afford electricity. In the middle of their box, was a light bulb, hanging from a wire. Now their son could read school books after dark.

You people, and the left-wing of America, are such spoiled brats.... you have no idea what life is really like for the vast majority of the planet. You have no idea at all. You complain and b!tch and moan, about every aspect of our Capitalist system, while the rest of the world, without capitalism, would think they had found Heaven on Earth, if they got $5/hour.

You demand the rich pay more and more, while in other countries with much higher tax rates, and more socialized government systems, they live in refrigerator boxes. You whine and cry about immigrants taking your jobs, and how you can't earn $100,000 as an engineer, while in the rest of the world, if they had access to a job at McDonald's, they'd think they were royalty.

So, I say it again. YOU are the rich. YOU are the top 1%. YOU. When you complain about the wealthy who don't give enough to charity, that is YOU. Here's this guy is living in a refrigerator box, and he's volunteering... doing unpaid work, for a charity, to help those less fortunate than him.

What have *YOU* done? Huh? How much have YOU given to charity? Maybe, you and people like you and your ideology, and your fellow employees replaced by H1-B visa people.... maybe you people should be more worried about what YOU give and donate, and do for those less fortunate than you. And less concerned about everyone you think is more wealthy than you.

 

[Andylusion]

The simple fact is that Universal Healthcare would immediately remove the burden from employers and businesses, allowing them to hire more people straight away. From there, the harvest of taxes from the sale of sodas, candy bars, sugar treats of all varieties, tobacco products and booze across the country begins to pool a vast resource for UH. Then the nominal co-pay each visit helps alleviate costs and discourages overuse of the system by hypochondriacs. People paying for their own private insurance suddenly have the equivalent of a 2nd mortgage freed up each month. They begin consuming more which will drive more sales which will drive more production which will drive more jobs.

From there, more working people each day is a new tax base for income taxes which also boost the economy. New startup businesses will no longer fear hiring more people for the health insurance issues. Someone getting hurt on the job won't bankrupt the company anymore; that fear is gone. Streamline costs, subsidize medical school, and limit malpractice suits and you will see our economy go from the red into the black.

Article I, section 8. It's there for all other services that save or protect human life. So the precedent is already set.

Transferring a cost from business to taxpayer does not make the cost disappear. Liberals have a hard time understanding this. Uncle Sam is not infinitely loaded with cash to steal, despite decades of Democrats doing just that...

Transferring a cost from business to taxpayer does not make the cost disappear.

First thing you've said that makes sense.

Funny, I never thought of people buying sodas as "taxpayers at the register". But I guess they are. We tax them there on all sorts of things though already. Will we suddenly stop doing that? No, of course not. So if everyone agrees "yeah, I'll pay a little more for cokes, smokes or suds if it means my kids have free healthcare", then everyone agrees. Are you trying to save us from ourselves? We can "make this horrible blunder" if we so choose. So says Article I, Section 8:

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.."

Again, General Welfare, prohibits the created a system that taxes one group of people for the benefit of others.

Additionally, the creators of the constitution, said very specifically that this "general welfare" was not a blank check, but only limited to the things specifically enumerated as powers of the Federal Government. Health care is not an enumerated power. You once again discredit your own argument.

Again, if simply charging a little more for cokes, smokes and suds worked..... then show me an example? Because wouldn't one of the dozens of countries with universal health care have done it? Of course they have tried, but all have failed. The end result is massive increases in taxes, that would be larger than the cost of insurance premiums we pay now. You can say it over and over, but the facts still stand against you.

 

[Silhouette]

Again, General Welfare, prohibits the created a system that taxes one group of people for the benefit of others.

UH is "UNIVERSAL Healthcare". If you opt out, you opt out. But it is yours, every person's for the taking if they want. So, yeah. There is no "one group of people" taxed. It is all people who decide to buy sodas, tobacco or booze. If you opt to buy sodas, tobacco or booze, you pay the tax. If you don't buy those things, you don't pay it. Very simple. Also, should we eliminate gas taxes at the pump because some people only ride bicycles? Of course not. Yet will those taxes go away? No. No they won't.

 

[initforme]

As an american citizen of 79 years andy your rant is a bunch of bunk. America is about the dollar...thats it. He who has the most wins. That is the very essence of america. Always has been always will be. It stands for the dollar. Truth be told. To view it any other way is ridiculous.

 

[initforme]

For five dollars an hour nobody should show up.

 

[Andylusion]

Greed will always be a factor in life. But would you prefer a company not automate, not increase efficiency and find ways to do more with less and ultimately close their doors, leaving ALL the employees on the street? You seem to have an emotional instead of logical understanding of how a company works, the costs and risks involved, the tough decisions that those at the top have to make every single day. I worked at Circuit City during it's peak time. Things were great, it was a fun place to work. Leadership was making good decisions and they were very profitable. There was a change in leadership and bad decisions were made which ultimately led to a company that once employed 50,000 well paid people shut down and went away. The top cats during the good times deserved all the perks they got.

They're not automating, they're bringing in "highly skilled" Indians to stack shelves.

No, they're bringing in highly educated Indians to write code.

Which is why IBM, Oracle and MS are kicking technological ass?
You've got to be kidding.

Those are the innovators in the IT world. I'm talking about the companies that use their products. Indian programmers have a very strong presence in nearly every IT department in the country, and for good reason. They're well educated, do good work and don't charge as much for their services as American programmers. That's one reason why I transferred to Database Administration.

"Those are the innovators in the IT world"
You missed my point...
IBM, MS and Oracle haven't innovated ANYTHING since the late 90s.
Nobody even knows who IBM or Oracle are except for people in their 50s or older.
And MS keeps offering up even shitter Indian written code with every version of every product they release.

"don't charge as much for their services as American programmers"
That's the key line.

Their products suck and that's why so many software products have disappeared from the market.
I bet you can't name one innovation from any company other than Apple.
Go ahead, I dare you.
Even the H1-Bs at Google are screwing up Android.

Those are rather bold claims.......... especially coming from someone using this forum..... whose software requires MySQL Server.... you know.... provided by Oracle.

And last I checked, IBM was the first to demo a 6nm transistor in 2002. And they have announced plans to mass produce 7nm transistors hopefully next year. Not exactly the zero innovation since the 1990s.

Microsoft is different, because they have acquisition has a corporate philosophy. It's hard to say what actually innovation they do, when their primary Modus Operandi, is to find small companies that are innovating, and buy them, thus making their innovative people, Microsoft employees.

Thus, did MS really inspire and fund the innovating... or did they simply buy out people who already were innovating?

That is a debatable point, and you can argue both sides.

But as for IBM, Oracle do not innovate.... especially while on a forum made possible by Oracle's innovations.... Nah, you are dead wrong.

By the way, IBM now has just under 1/3rd of all web servers. I was interested to find out what hardware this forum is hosted on, because it would make it even more ironically funny, if this forum was using Oracle software, running on IBM hardware. Which could easily still be true, but I can't prove it.

I could only prove it is running it's running on an Nginx server, which could be hosted on any hardware. Although I did find Nginx has an Oracle distribution.

Of course now that IBM has created a special open source version of Linux designed for it's POWER cpu servers, they have dramatically gained ground in the web server and corporate server market. Which of course proves they are not innovating at all.... since the 1990s..... right?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The simple fact is that Universal Healthcare would immediately remove the burden from employers and businesses, allowing them to hire more people straight away. From there, the harvest of taxes from the sale of sodas, candy bars, sugar treats of all varieties, tobacco products and booze across the country begins to pool a vast resource for UH. Then the nominal co-pay each visit helps alleviate costs and discourages overuse of the system by hypochondriacs. People paying for their own private insurance suddenly have the equivalent of a 2nd mortgage freed up each month. They begin consuming more which will drive more sales which will drive more production which will drive more jobs.

From there, more working people each day is a new tax base for income taxes which also boost the economy. New startup businesses will no longer fear hiring more people for the health insurance issues. Someone getting hurt on the job won't bankrupt the company anymore; that fear is gone. Streamline costs, subsidize medical school, and limit malpractice suits and you will see our economy go from the red into the black.

Article I, section 8. It's there for all other services that save or protect human life. So the precedent is already set.

Transferring a cost from business to taxpayer does not make the cost disappear. Liberals have a hard time understanding this. Uncle Sam is not infinitely loaded with cash to steal, despite decades of Democrats doing just that...

Transferring a cost from business to taxpayer does not make the cost disappear.

First thing you've said that makes sense.

Funny, I never thought of people buying sodas as "taxpayers at the register". But I guess they are. We tax them there on all sorts of things though already. Will we suddenly stop doing that? No, of course not. So if everyone agrees "yeah, I'll pay a little more for cokes, smokes or suds if it means my kids have free healthcare", then everyone agrees. Are you trying to save us from ourselves? We can "make this horrible blunder" if we so choose. So says Article I, Section 8:

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.."

The simple fact is that Universal Healthcare would immediately remove the burden from employers and businesses, allowing them to hire more people straight away.

You wouldn't be able to raise enough to pay for universal healthcare by taxing those things.

In 2013 US health care spending increased 3.6 percent to $2.9 trillion, or $9,255 per person. The share of gross domestic product devoted to health care spending has remained at 17.4 percent since 2009.

US Health Care Spending in 2013 « Healthcare Economist