Trickle-Up Recession: The 1% Getting Real About the Permanent Fix for the Economy

[Toddsterpatriot]

Again, General Welfare, prohibits the created a system that taxes one group of people for the benefit of others.

UH is "UNIVERSAL Healthcare". If you opt out, you opt out. But it is yours, every person's for the taking if they want. So, yeah. There is no "one group of people" taxed. It is all people who decide to buy sodas, tobacco or booze. If you opt to buy sodas, tobacco or booze, you pay the tax. If you don't buy those things, you don't pay it. Very simple. Also, should we eliminate gas taxes at the pump because some people only ride bicycles? Of course not. Yet will those taxes go away? No. No they won't.

If you don't buy those things, you don't pay it.

Your "universal healthcare" is going to be similar to Cuba's, based on the amount those taxes will raise.

 

[Andylusion]

As an american citizen of 79 years andy your rant is a bunch of bunk. America is about the dollar...thats it. He who has the most wins. That is the very essence of america. Always has been always will be. It stands for the dollar. Truth be told. To view it any other way is ridiculous.

Nothing you said, changes anything I said.

But it's interesting to me that your claim doesn't seem to meet reality....

America is the (second) most generous country in the world

When you say America is about the dollar, and that's it...... based on what metric do you make that claim?

Because when you compare America being charitable, to the rest of the world........ there's only one country that ranks higher on that list. And it's a 3rd world country. And that's only 2015.

World Giving Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the prior two polls... we were number one.

And generally charity increases during a catastrophe, like the massive flooding that killed hundreds last year in Myanmar.

These are the world's most generous countries

And Charitable giving as a percent of GDP, the top of the world, the USA at 1.44%. Next highest? New Zealand at 0.79%. As a percent of GDP, we give nearly double what the rest of the world gives to charity.

So.... when you say America is only about the dollar.... are you saying that because YOU are only about the dollar? Left-wingers are only about the dollar? Because right-wingers give nearly double to charity that left-wing liberals give.

Please do explain... by what metric, what evidence, what rational do you claim America is only about the dollar?

Do tell, and provide your evidence.

 

[Andylusion]

"employers are just regular people like you, except they own businesses and can hire people"

Who live WAY over their heads.
The average small business owner on Long Island who makes less than 200K/year lives like he makes 3 million a year.
All of your RW talk is complete bullshit influenced by your Stock gains.

"the average business owner..... on long island?" There are an estimated just under 30 million business owners in this country. Long Island has a population of 7.8 Million. I wager the majority of that population does not own a business. Even if we assumed they did, that doesn't make them representative of "the average business owner".

And Long Island itself isn't representative of anything. It's the most populated Island in the entire country, in one of the most expensive cities in the country.

Trying to make a broad statement about the rich, or business owners, based on an extremely isolated example, in one of the most economically extreme places in the US... is beyond ridiculous.... it is intellectual dishonesty.

Once again.... you are a liar.

My RW talk is influenced by truth, and fact. Neither of which you have shown any propensity for.

 

[Indeependent]

They're not automating, they're bringing in "highly skilled" Indians to stack shelves.

No, they're bringing in highly educated Indians to write code.

Which is why IBM, Oracle and MS are kicking technological ass?
You've got to be kidding.

Those are the innovators in the IT world. I'm talking about the companies that use their products. Indian programmers have a very strong presence in nearly every IT department in the country, and for good reason. They're well educated, do good work and don't charge as much for their services as American programmers. That's one reason why I transferred to Database Administration.

"Those are the innovators in the IT world"
You missed my point...
IBM, MS and Oracle haven't innovated ANYTHING since the late 90s.
Nobody even knows who IBM or Oracle are except for people in their 50s or older.
And MS keeps offering up even shitter Indian written code with every version of every product they release.

"don't charge as much for their services as American programmers"
That's the key line.

Their products suck and that's why so many software products have disappeared from the market.
I bet you can't name one innovation from any company other than Apple.
Go ahead, I dare you.
Even the H1-Bs at Google are screwing up Android.

Those are rather bold claims.......... especially coming from someone using this forum..... whose software requires MySQL Server.... you know.... provided by Oracle.

And last I checked, IBM was the first to demo a 6nm transistor in 2002. And they have announced plans to mass produce 7nm transistors hopefully next year. Not exactly the zero innovation since the 1990s.

Microsoft is different, because they have acquisition has a corporate philosophy. It's hard to say what actually innovation they do, when their primary Modus Operandi, is to find small companies that are innovating, and buy them, thus making their innovative people, Microsoft employees.

Thus, did MS really inspire and fund the innovating... or did they simply buy out people who already were innovating?

That is a debatable point, and you can argue both sides.

But as for IBM, Oracle do not innovate.... especially while on a forum made possible by Oracle's innovations.... Nah, you are dead wrong.

By the way, IBM now has just under 1/3rd of all web servers. I was interested to find out what hardware this forum is hosted on, because it would make it even more ironically funny, if this forum was using Oracle software, running on IBM hardware. Which could easily still be true, but I can't prove it.

I could only prove it is running it's running on an Nginx server, which could be hosted on any hardware. Although I did find Nginx has an Oracle distribution.

Of course now that IBM has created a special open source version of Linux designed for it's POWER cpu servers, they have dramatically gained ground in the web server and corporate server market. Which of course proves they are not innovating at all.... since the 1990s..... right?

I am specifically discussing their SOFTWARE development tools, the ones they say NO ONE but an Indian H1-B knows.
They built these platforms around compilers and databases dating back at least 20 years.
And then they claim no one knows COBOL, DB2 or Oracle except for Indians.
What a joke.
I'm so happy that IBM's Indians had to copy and paste code that non-Indians wrote.

Anything else?

 

[Indeependent]

"employers are just regular people like you, except they own businesses and can hire people"

Who live WAY over their heads.
The average small business owner on Long Island who makes less than 200K/year lives like he makes 3 million a year.
All of your RW talk is complete bullshit influenced by your Stock gains.

"the average business owner..... on long island?" There are an estimated just under 30 million business owners in this country. Long Island has a population of 7.8 Million. I wager the majority of that population does not own a business. Even if we assumed they did, that doesn't make them representative of "the average business owner".

And Long Island itself isn't representative of anything. It's the most populated Island in the entire country, in one of the most expensive cities in the country.

Trying to make a broad statement about the rich, or business owners, based on an extremely isolated example, in one of the most economically extreme places in the US... is beyond ridiculous.... it is intellectual dishonesty.

Once again.... you are a liar.

My RW talk is influenced by truth, and fact. Neither of which you have shown any propensity for.

Nope, I stated "the average business owner..... on long island" and you are trying to Rush Limbaugh my statement.
I have noticed this pattern of yours to FoxNews everything anybody posts.

Now take into account the Housing Bubble occurring across the entire country, plus the relatives and friends of mine who live around the country, business owners making way less than a million a year are living WAY above their heads.
I PRESUME you've noticed commercial and residential palaces popping up everywhere you drive.

 

[Indeependent]

"employers are just regular people like you, except they own businesses and can hire people"

Who live WAY over their heads.
The average small business owner on Long Island who makes less than 200K/year lives like he makes 3 million a year.
All of your RW talk is complete bullshit influenced by your Stock gains.

And Long Island itself isn't representative of anything. It's the most populated Island in the entire country, in one of the most expensive cities in the country.

I believe you have missed the point (no shock there) that I am discussing hotbeds of Illegals and Business Visas.
Business owners in the middle of nowhere cannot live above their heads.

 

[Andylusion]

I don't know you need humans bolting down seats? Someone has to Design, build, program, install, maintain, monitor, order all of those Automation machines. Higher pay, better jobs. This allows all that human labor to be used elsewhere.

Am I way wrong?

No, but there is a shortage of trained labor to do these jobs. Employers are importing workers in some fields because American workers lack the education or the training. Americans are unwilling to use taxpayer dollars for training or to provide incentives for employers to hire and train. But they are willing to cut taxes for corporations, even though corporations are awash in cash and still not spending it on increasing or improving their labor force.

The problem is that not all government programs are a bad idea. Some even show a profit - that is they return more in tax dollars paid than they cost in tax dollars spent. But this is only true if the jobs being handed out result in the worker paying taxes. This notion of "earned income credits" is appalling. The idea that people who work a 40 hour week should be given wage subsidies taken out of the pockets of middle class Americans, because corporations don't want to pay a living wage? In Canada, they'd destroy any political party who tried to pull bullshit like that on the backs of the taxpayers.

Here's the problem.......

Companies that give paid training, often find their employees quit and get hired by other companies.

I've talked with people who openly said, they hired someone into an apprenticeship... paid them, and trained them, and as soon as they were good enough to work, they quit and got hired on elsewhere. The company lost money paying them when they couldn't work yet, and lost money paying someone to train them, and then they left.

Well of course no company is going to pay to train people, to work for their competitors! If you had a small business, would you hire me, to pay me a full wage, to train me... knowing I would quit and go help someone who was competing against you, and run you out of business?

Of course not. Of course not!

See, in most other countries, especially the European countries, nearly all of them have an apprenticeship wage far below the minimum wage. This allows the employers to train you at a much lower wage. That at least mitigates the risk of you leaving. You might still leave, but the money lost training you is much much lower.

You don't even give companies that.

And here's the thing...... It does not matter that companies are awash with money.

Would you pay me, and train me... to quit and join your competitor to run you out of business? No? Well what if you had $50,000? Still no? What if you had $100,000? Still no? What if you had a million dollars? Would you pay me, and train me, to run you out of business by quitting and joining your competitor?

No. Of course not. You are not going to spend tens thousands on thousands, to help me, run you out of business. And we are talking tens of thousands of dollars.

Back in 2001, I was working for a Cadillac dealership. They had two apprenticeship positions. One as a mechanic, and one as a body shop. They told me, they were closing both positions that year. I asked why. The answer.... because it cost too much, and then people leave. The cost of training people was too high (because they couldn't pay them less), and the risk was too high that people leave.

So now they only hire trained mechanics. They expect you to go to Columbus State Community College, get trained there, and then they'll hire you, after you pay for your own training.

 

[Indeependent]

I don't know you need humans bolting down seats? Someone has to Design, build, program, install, maintain, monitor, order all of those Automation machines. Higher pay, better jobs. This allows all that human labor to be used elsewhere.

Am I way wrong?

No, but there is a shortage of trained labor to do these jobs. Employers are importing workers in some fields because American workers lack the education or the training. Americans are unwilling to use taxpayer dollars for training or to provide incentives for employers to hire and train. But they are willing to cut taxes for corporations, even though corporations are awash in cash and still not spending it on increasing or improving their labor force.

The problem is that not all government programs are a bad idea. Some even show a profit - that is they return more in tax dollars paid than they cost in tax dollars spent. But this is only true if the jobs being handed out result in the worker paying taxes. This notion of "earned income credits" is appalling. The idea that people who work a 40 hour week should be given wage subsidies taken out of the pockets of middle class Americans, because corporations don't want to pay a living wage? In Canada, they'd destroy any political party who tried to pull bullshit like that on the backs of the taxpayers.

Here's the problem.......

Companies that give paid training, often find their employees quit and get hired by other companies.

I've talked with people who openly said, they hired someone into an apprenticeship... paid them, and trained them, and as soon as they were good enough to work, they quit and got hired on elsewhere. The company lost money paying them when they couldn't work yet, and lost money paying someone to train them, and then they left.

Well of course no company is going to pay to train people, to work for their competitors! If you had a small business, would you hire me, to pay me a full wage, to train me... knowing I would quit and go help someone who was competing against you, and run you out of business?

Of course not. Of course not!

See, in most other countries, especially the European countries, nearly all of them have an apprenticeship wage far below the minimum wage. This allows the employers to train you at a much lower wage. That at least mitigates the risk of you leaving. You might still leave, but the money lost training you is much much lower.

You don't even give companies that.

And here's the thing...... It does not matter that companies are awash with money.

Would you pay me, and train me... to quit and join your competitor to run you out of business? No? Well what if you had $50,000? Still no? What if you had $100,000? Still no? What if you had a million dollars? Would you pay me, and train me, to run you out of business by quitting and joining your competitor?

No. Of course not. You are not going to spend tens thousands on thousands, to help me, run you out of business. And we are talking tens of thousands of dollars.

Back in 2001, I was working for a Cadillac dealership. They had two apprenticeship positions. One as a mechanic, and one as a body shop. They told me, they were closing both positions that year. I asked why. The answer.... because it cost too much, and then people leave. The cost of training people was too high (because they couldn't pay them less), and the risk was too high that people leave.

So now they only hire trained mechanics. They expect you to go to Columbus State Community College, get trained there, and then they'll hire you, after you pay for your own training.

Complete bullshit.
Business Visas have to be trained; NO ONE walks into a White Collar position knowing the procedures and functions the company follows.
This is just one more bullshit reason for cheap labor.
Hell, after hearing this excuse for the umpteenth time since 2004 I'm still waiting for someone to give me a concrete example of it's occurrence.
80% of my Town is business owners and I can't get an example of this from one of them.
All they want is Illegals for janitors and Visas for office work.
Oh, in case you missed it...Complete bullshit.

 

[Andylusion]

"employers are just regular people like you, except they own businesses and can hire people"

Who live WAY over their heads.
The average small business owner on Long Island who makes less than 200K/year lives like he makes 3 million a year.
All of your RW talk is complete bullshit influenced by your Stock gains.

"the average business owner..... on long island?" There are an estimated just under 30 million business owners in this country. Long Island has a population of 7.8 Million. I wager the majority of that population does not own a business. Even if we assumed they did, that doesn't make them representative of "the average business owner".

And Long Island itself isn't representative of anything. It's the most populated Island in the entire country, in one of the most expensive cities in the country.

Trying to make a broad statement about the rich, or business owners, based on an extremely isolated example, in one of the most economically extreme places in the US... is beyond ridiculous.... it is intellectual dishonesty.

Once again.... you are a liar.

My RW talk is influenced by truth, and fact. Neither of which you have shown any propensity for.

Nope, I stated "the average business owner..... on long island" and you are trying to Rush Limbaugh my statement.
I have noticed this pattern of yours to FoxNews everything anybody posts.

Now take into account the Housing Bubble occurring across the entire country, plus the relatives and friends of mine who live around the country, business owners making way less than a million a year are living WAY above their heads.
I PRESUME you've noticed commercial and residential palaces popping up everywhere you drive.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I have not seen anything from Fox News, in 13 years. I don't own a TV, and I don't have cable. My typical news sources are SkyNews and the BBC, and occasionally CBS (normally when Sky News re-broadcasts them over Youtube). The BBC, I download their documentary podcast.

As for Rush, I haven't listened to anything from him, or any other right-wing radio in at least 10 years. Quite frankly, if you people on the left, would stop trying to blame every comment you don't like, or fact your refuse to accept on Rush Limbaugh, I'd likely forget he's still around.

Honestly, I can't say that I have. Yes, there are few... but then, I have never noticed any time where there was not a few.

The company I work for right now, might have someone like you describe in it. It merged with PC-Mall, the 1990s massive mail order computer giant. So the 'owners' or not the owners anymore. But two decades ago, the company I worked for was an average guy who worked hard to open his own computer store, and grew it until a nation wide company. He still owns an average home.

Additionally, the guy I worked for before this, was just an average guy. His home was comparable to my parent home. About $200k, or roughly there. The guy before him, has an average suburb home, that any public school teacher could afford.

Before that, the CEO was a guy that started the company, soldering circuit board together in his basement.

In fact, nearly all the business owners and CEOs I have personally worked for, and talked with, were average people. They lived in upper-middle class homes, drove upper-middle class cars, lived upper middle-class lives.

Out of all of them.... I can only think of one. One guy that was crazy, and he wasn't even the owner or CEO. His dad was, and he was a spoiled brat. When he's daddy dies, he'll be hurting, because he had no business sense at all.

There were a few, that my brother in law, who works for the VA, had a bigger house. So, no, I don't see what you are saying at all.

Yes there are people in this country who live way above their wages. But that group isn't even remotely limited to, or exemplified by business owners. In fact, it's usually employees. I had one guy, who was earning $11/hour, go buy a new car on 24% interest because "Well I really wanted a new Honda Accord.".

 

[Andylusion]

I don't know you need humans bolting down seats? Someone has to Design, build, program, install, maintain, monitor, order all of those Automation machines. Higher pay, better jobs. This allows all that human labor to be used elsewhere.

Am I way wrong?

No, but there is a shortage of trained labor to do these jobs. Employers are importing workers in some fields because American workers lack the education or the training. Americans are unwilling to use taxpayer dollars for training or to provide incentives for employers to hire and train. But they are willing to cut taxes for corporations, even though corporations are awash in cash and still not spending it on increasing or improving their labor force.

The problem is that not all government programs are a bad idea. Some even show a profit - that is they return more in tax dollars paid than they cost in tax dollars spent. But this is only true if the jobs being handed out result in the worker paying taxes. This notion of "earned income credits" is appalling. The idea that people who work a 40 hour week should be given wage subsidies taken out of the pockets of middle class Americans, because corporations don't want to pay a living wage? In Canada, they'd destroy any political party who tried to pull bullshit like that on the backs of the taxpayers.

Here's the problem.......

Companies that give paid training, often find their employees quit and get hired by other companies.

I've talked with people who openly said, they hired someone into an apprenticeship... paid them, and trained them, and as soon as they were good enough to work, they quit and got hired on elsewhere. The company lost money paying them when they couldn't work yet, and lost money paying someone to train them, and then they left.

Well of course no company is going to pay to train people, to work for their competitors! If you had a small business, would you hire me, to pay me a full wage, to train me... knowing I would quit and go help someone who was competing against you, and run you out of business?

Of course not. Of course not!

See, in most other countries, especially the European countries, nearly all of them have an apprenticeship wage far below the minimum wage. This allows the employers to train you at a much lower wage. That at least mitigates the risk of you leaving. You might still leave, but the money lost training you is much much lower.

You don't even give companies that.

And here's the thing...... It does not matter that companies are awash with money.

Would you pay me, and train me... to quit and join your competitor to run you out of business? No? Well what if you had $50,000? Still no? What if you had $100,000? Still no? What if you had a million dollars? Would you pay me, and train me, to run you out of business by quitting and joining your competitor?

No. Of course not. You are not going to spend tens thousands on thousands, to help me, run you out of business. And we are talking tens of thousands of dollars.

Back in 2001, I was working for a Cadillac dealership. They had two apprenticeship positions. One as a mechanic, and one as a body shop. They told me, they were closing both positions that year. I asked why. The answer.... because it cost too much, and then people leave. The cost of training people was too high (because they couldn't pay them less), and the risk was too high that people leave.

So now they only hire trained mechanics. They expect you to go to Columbus State Community College, get trained there, and then they'll hire you, after you pay for your own training.

Complete bullshit.
Business Visas have to be trained; NO ONE walks into a White Collar position knowing the procedures and functions the company follows.
This is just one more bullshit reason for cheap labor.
Hell, after hearing this excuse for the umpteenth time since 2004 I'm still waiting for someone to give me a concrete example of it's occurrence.
80% of my Town is business owners and I can't get an example of this from one of them.
All they want is Illegals for janitors and Visas for office work.
Oh, in case you missed it...Complete bullshit.

Completely different. I was talking about Americans. Not H1-Bs.

My example was real life, heard it directly from the employer to my ears. It's not BS. It's fact.

As for your rant about walking into a white collar job knowing procedures and functions.... what are you talking about? That's not the kind of training anyone here is referring to. Why are you talking crazy?

The shortage of skilled labor, has nothing to do with being trained on with how to file your TPS Report.

That's from the 90s Office Space movie... in case you don't get the reference.

 

[Andylusion]

For five dollars an hour nobody should show up.

Again.... do you understand that in many places on this planet... $5 an hour is a luxury lifestyle? Do you realize, that people who earn $5 an hour here, is what MOST people on this planet..... DREAM of?

You shouldn't show up. I get that. I shouldn't show up. I get that. I know I can earn more than $5 an hour.... so *I* don't show up. But there are people who honestly, they can't earn more more than $5 an hour, and $5 an hour is the best opportunity they could have at a better life.

Why don't you want them to have a better life? Why do you want them to starve to death?

Because YOU can earn more? Great. Go earn more. What about them??

It's like that whole thing with the Nike shoe factory in Malaysia.. You people demanded Nike pay more money. But what you ignored was that Nike already paid far more money to those employees, than ANY OTHER EMPLOYER IN THE COUNTRY. It was like hundred Malaysians applied for each single job that opened at that Nike Plant. The people who got jobs there, were the envy of the rest of the country.

And here's what you people never cared about. After Nike raised their wages... which they did slightly to appease you people.... they laid off hundreds of workers.

Hundreds of workers sent back to far lower wages. Doomed to poverty. A small door to a better life, closed by the left-wing.

Why? Why doom other people to worse living conditions, because you don't like how much they are paid? Nike closed several other factories in Asia too. Well done. Thousands more doomed to poverty. But at least they are not paying 'slave wages'. Zero wages isn't slavery after all. It's starvation. But at least no one makes a profit on starvation, right? Who cares if they die, as long as you feel good about your im-moral crusade.

 

[hadit]

The simple fact is that Universal Healthcare would immediately remove the burden from employers and businesses, allowing them to hire more people straight away. From there, the harvest of taxes from the sale of sodas, candy bars, sugar treats of all varieties, tobacco products and booze across the country begins to pool a vast resource for UH. Then the nominal co-pay each visit helps alleviate costs and discourages overuse of the system by hypochondriacs. People paying for their own private insurance suddenly have the equivalent of a 2nd mortgage freed up each month. They begin consuming more which will drive more sales which will drive more production which will drive more jobs.

From there, more working people each day is a new tax base for income taxes which also boost the economy. New startup businesses will no longer fear hiring more people for the health insurance issues. Someone getting hurt on the job won't bankrupt the company anymore; that fear is gone. Streamline costs, subsidize medical school, and limit malpractice suits and you will see our economy go from the red into the black.

Article I, section 8. It's there for all other services that save or protect human life. So the precedent is already set.

Microsoft SQL Server.
Oracle Database Server.
IBM DB2...These products are the backbone of thousands of corporations around the world for good reason, because they work. You seem to think that innovation began 5 years ago.

Innovation is what would increase exponentially if people with really good ideas weren't afraid of starting up a company because of the health & injury issues associated with employing people. UH would rescue our economy via rescuing innovation.

You are also missing the regulatory burden the government places on people who are willing to work hard and have good ideas, but face overwhelming hurdles just to get started.

 

[hadit]

LOL!!!


Once again a liberal creates more business for lawyers by failing to understand markets and economics and setting the foundation for large black markets...

Booze and tobacco are taxed to the hilt. There already is a robust black market for cigarettes, and people are making their own moonshine in the South again...

A liberal simply thinks you just hike taxes and you get no change other than the tax rate and viola, more money to government. Reagan and Bill Clinton (Newt Gingrich really) proved that completely wrong, as is O by taxing companies like Burger King right out of the country.

To say nothing of the perverse incentive. When you dedicate tobacco and alcohol taxes to schools, you create an incentive for people to continue smoking and drinking.

 

[hadit]

^^ and all that would be solved by stimulating the economy using Universal Healthcare.

Which would simultaneously suck tremendous amounts of money OUT of the economy just when it's needed the most. You do know, don't you, that government healthcare would cost trillions?

 

[hadit]

No, they're bringing in highly educated Indians to write code.

Which is why IBM, Oracle and MS are kicking technological ass?
You've got to be kidding.

Those are the innovators in the IT world. I'm talking about the companies that use their products. Indian programmers have a very strong presence in nearly every IT department in the country, and for good reason. They're well educated, do good work and don't charge as much for their services as American programmers. That's one reason why I transferred to Database Administration.

"Those are the innovators in the IT world"
You missed my point...
IBM, MS and Oracle haven't innovated ANYTHING since the late 90s.
Nobody even knows who IBM or Oracle are except for people in their 50s or older.
And MS keeps offering up even shitter Indian written code with every version of every product they release.

"don't charge as much for their services as American programmers"
That's the key line.

Their products suck and that's why so many software products have disappeared from the market.
I bet you can't name one innovation from any company other than Apple.
Go ahead, I dare you.
Even the H1-Bs at Google are screwing up Android.

Microsoft SQL Server.
Oracle Database Server.
IBM DB2.

These products are the backbone of thousands of corporations around the world for good reason, because they work. You seem to think that innovation began 5 years ago.

They were developed by the Americans who fired for "lacking the skill set" to use them.

???

Doesn't address the fact that innovation has been going on for a long time.

 

[Andylusion]

Again, General Welfare, prohibits the created a system that taxes one group of people for the benefit of others.

UH is "UNIVERSAL Healthcare". If you opt out, you opt out. But it is yours, every person's for the taking if they want. So, yeah. There is no "one group of people" taxed. It is all people who decide to buy sodas, tobacco or booze. If you opt to buy sodas, tobacco or booze, you pay the tax. If you don't buy those things, you don't pay it. Very simple. Also, should we eliminate gas taxes at the pump because some people only ride bicycles? Of course not. Yet will those taxes go away? No. No they won't.

Irrelevant. Taxing one group, to pay for the benefits to another group, is still a violation of the general welfare clause.

Now the states can do that if they wish. All rights reserved to the states. But the Federal government can not.

And Universal doesn't matter. Just because I could use it, doesn't mean I do use it, or that I need to use it. I know people right now that have never been to a hospital. Whether they could.... doesn't matter. They have never needed to.

Thus, regardless of your claims... it's still one group of people, paying for the benefits of another group of people... in complete violation of the general welfare clause. You are punishing some, for the freebies to another.

Besides that, as I already pointed out... even if it did not violating the general welfare clause (which it clearly does), the fact remains that the authority to tax and provide for the general welfare is, as it was intended... limited to the specific powers granted the Federal government.

The act was founded, avowedly, on the principle that the phrase in the constitution which authorizes Congress "to lay taxes, to pay the debts and provide for the general welfare," was an extension of the powers specifically enumerated to whatever would promote the general welfare; and this, you know, was the federal doctrine. Whereas, our tenet ever was, and, indeed, it is almost the only landmark which now divides the federalists from the republicans, that Congress had not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but were restrained to those specifically enumerated.
​

Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1: Thomas Jefferson to Albert Gallatin

Thomas Jefferson, written in a letter in 1817 to Albert Gallatin, Secretary of the Treasury and other political positions.

Now unless you can provide evidence that 'Universal Healthcare' was one of the "powers specifically enumerated".... then you citing Article 1 Section 8, completely destroys your own argument.

But again.... sweeping all that aside.... let us again, pretend that the constitution did provide for UniHealth.

It still wouldn't change the fact that your claims are absolutely bonkers. Just like the tobacco tax has already shown... tax revenues wouldn't even come close to providing for the cost. Smoke Taxes have declining revenue for the past 7 years. People find cheaper alternatives, or start using the black market to bypass the taxes.

Then you'll have to spend millions of dollars strangling untaxed cigarette dealers on the streets of New York?

Then you'll complain about law enforcement.

It won't cover the cost of health care. It won't work. It never has anywhere else in the world, and it won't work here either. Stop being childish about this. Your math doesn't work.

 

[LaDexter]

When you dedicate tobacco and alcohol taxes to schools, you create an incentive for people to continue smoking and drinking

Public education is the greatest example of what happens to a taxpayer funded government monopoly. The more it costs the taxpayer, the worse it gets. Public education was once called a "national treasure" by an editor of The Nation magazine. What she really meant is a "treasure" for Democratic campaign coffers - the more money that vanishes in public schools, the more teachers unions donate to the Democrats. The synergy is off the scale. Democrats want people dumb for a variety of reasons

1. dumb people are more likely to need "government assistance"
2. dumb people are more likely to believe the lies the Democrats tell the public
3. dumb people are more easily frightened by BS election year "scare tactics"

 

[Silhouette]

^^ You forgot: 4. dumb people are more likely to vote for Trump..

 

[Silhouette]

The simple fact is that Universal Healthcare would immediately remove the burden from employers and businesses, allowing them to hire more people straight away. From there, the harvest of taxes from the sale of sodas, candy bars, sugar treats of all varieties, tobacco products and booze across the country begins to pool a vast resource for UH. Then the nominal co-pay each visit helps alleviate costs and discourages overuse of the system by hypochondriacs. People paying for their own private insurance suddenly have the equivalent of a 2nd mortgage freed up each month. They begin consuming more which will drive more sales which will drive more production which will drive more jobs.

From there, more working people each day is a new tax base for income taxes which also boost the economy. New startup businesses will no longer fear hiring more people for the health insurance issues. Someone getting hurt on the job won't bankrupt the company anymore; that fear is gone. Streamline costs, subsidize medical school, and limit malpractice suits and you will see our economy go from the red into the black.

Innovation is what would increase exponentially if people with really good ideas weren't afraid of starting up a company because of the health & injury issues associated with employing people. UH would rescue our economy via rescuing innovation.

You are also missing the regulatory burden the government places on people who are willing to work hard and have good ideas, but face overwhelming hurdles just to get started.

Yes, I know. Baby steps though. The huge burden on both employers and those they would employ if they only could afford to is the costs of private insurance.

 

[LaDexter]

When you dedicate tobacco and alcohol taxes to schools, you create an incentive for people to continue smoking and drinking

Assuming the drunk or smoker doesn't understand the real goal of public education:


HELP THE DEMOCRATS BY STEALING MONEY AND DUMBING DOWN KIDS