Torture, or whatever you want to call it, "justified" by majority

[rightwinger]

People who embrace torture hate America

Good thing America doesn't torture, huh.

We didn't used to.....There was a time when America stood on the moral high ground
How quickly we gave that up

Timeline on that?
Ya' mean since Woodrow Wilson suggested we shed the Constitution....or when FDR ended obedience to it?

Wilson engaged in torture?

You must have him confused with Bush/Cheney

What I wrote was very clear.

This post is inept, even for an oldie like you.

As usual, your post is a rightwing hysterical rant totally unrelated to the subject at hand

 

[ClosedCaption]

We didn't used to.....There was a time when America stood on the moral high ground
How quickly we gave that up

Washington had no mercy with captive redcoats...they talked or were hanged. Lincoln saw what went on at the Fort Delaware prison...same as Andersonville...torture and starvation. Eisenhower starved 100K German prisoners to death. I've already chronicled what we did in Vietnam...

So WHEN was this time you speak of you ignorant jackass?

"Happened in the past so its cool" is the name of this post

 

[rightwinger]

We didn't used to.....There was a time when America stood on the moral high ground
How quickly we gave that up

Washington had no mercy with captive redcoats...they talked or were hanged. Lincoln saw what went on at the Fort Delaware prison...same as Andersonville...torture and starvation. Eisenhower starved 100K German prisoners to death. I've already chronicled what we did in Vietnam...

So WHEN was this time you speak of you ignorant jackass?

link

 

[bodecea]

There is a huge difference between us and Iraq.

Should we act like Iraq in order to protect our freedoms?

How far are you willing to go?

It's been answered

If it takes nuking the barbarians......

Proceed

What is your suggestion for Ground Zero?

It only takes one. Do I get to pick it?

Believe me......

I'd be happy to

It only takes one? You think all the bad guys are within range of one nuke? Ok, what would you pick as Ground Zero? And why?

I don't need to take them all out. Just enough to bite off the snakes head.

The rest of your questions lead me to believe you do not understand this enemy.

I understand enough to notice you seem hesitant to speak up as to where you want your Ground Zero to be. Are you afraid to say?

 

[bodecea]

Let's preserve America for people who love America and appreciate the ideals and values that make us great.

Let's preserve America.....ban Liberals.

How would you manage that logistically?

Through education.

Ah...but we HAVE education. And yet, liberals haven't disappeared. In fact we seem to have done quite well in Presidential election years.

 

[Coyote]

Sure. Start a topic on it.

However...I'm not seeing this as a liberal/conservative issue.

If you actually read the article you would have found that conservatives and moderates, even Democrats, found the interrogations justified while liberals did not.

My comment was directed not at what was found in the article (which I read) but rather at the fact that I don't think torture itself is or should be a left/right issue. Maybe it is, but I would think it should bother people on both sides of the ideological divide. Fear certainly allows us to justify a lot of things that later we deeply regret and were found to be unnecessary and served no useful purpose - for example the internment of the Japanese-Americans.

While many regret the internment of Japanese-Americans, most do not seem to be sorry for the interrogation techniques used on people like KSM. This is the guy's testimony, "I decapitated with my blessed right hand the head of the American Jew,"

Sorry, your equivalency is BS.

Many regret it NOW - years after the fact. How long did it take to even grant the reparations? "Regret" is easy, long after the deed when rationality takes over isn't it? And there are still people who justify it even now.

KSM was only one person. Many of those tortured were of dubious value who may or may not have done anything worth torturing. And even then - no useful informatioin was gained. So what's the real purpose of the torture? Punative?

KSM was only one person? Didn't we already have a short chat about grasping the obvious and spewing platitudes?

When you seem incapable of grasping the obvious, it's a useful technique. Also...having a hissy fit over it certainly allows you to ignore what was said.

As for the rest, how the hell do you know these things? Based on a highly partisan report which has the legitimacy of a Rolling Stone article and has been roundly disavowed by all in the actual intelligence community?

Is it highly partisan simply because it disagrees with your view point? Specifically - what was wrong in the report? The fact that people died? The fact that there was little to no accountability? The fact that some of the prisoners were never charged with anything or found to have done anything wrong?

If I need a conscience or feel like self-flagellating, I'll let you know. In the meantime I call BS once again.

Your conscience or...physical desires...have nothing to do with me. That's your business.

 

[bodecea]

We didn't used to.....There was a time when America stood on the moral high ground
How quickly we gave that up

Washington had no mercy with captive redcoats...they talked or were hanged. Lincoln saw what went on at the Fort Delaware prison...same as Andersonville...torture and starvation. Eisenhower starved 100K German prisoners to death. I've already chronicled what we did in Vietnam...

So WHEN was this time you speak of you ignorant jackass?

I would like a link to that little tidbit of information being more than a fantasy.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Good thing America doesn't torture, huh.

We didn't used to.....There was a time when America stood on the moral high ground
How quickly we gave that up

Timeline on that?
Ya' mean since Woodrow Wilson suggested we shed the Constitution....or when FDR ended obedience to it?

Wilson engaged in torture?

You must have him confused with Bush/Cheney

What I wrote was very clear.

This post is inept, even for an oldie like you.

As usual, your post is a rightwing hysterical rant totally unrelated to the subject at hand

It was directly related to your post....

...you don't like it when you're put in your place, huh?


And don't defend Progressive Woodrow Wilson just because you voted for him.


This Wilson:

1. The Wilson Propaganda Ministry

a. George Creel was named to head the Committee on Public Information, the CPI. How liberal was he: “served as police commissioner in Denver, depriving policemen of guns and nightsticks”(www.jstor.org/stable/845226) Fear was a vital tool, “an important element to be bred into the civilian population.” (Goldberg, “Liberal Fascism,” p.109) He recruited about 75,000 "Four Minute Men," who spoke about the War at social events for an ideal length of four minutes, considering that the average human attention span was judged at the time to be four minutes.(George Creel - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia)

b. The official position of the US government's Committee on Public Information was: "The force of an idea lies in its inspirational value. It matters very little if it is true or false."
JTM Full text Comments on the nonpharmaceutical interventions in New York City and Chicago during the 1918 influenza pandemic

c. Wilson’s Sedition Act, May 1918 banned “uttering, printing, writing, or publishing any disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language about the United States government of the military.

d. The postmaster general had authority to deny mailing privileges to any publication: at least 75 were banned. The supply of newsprint was halted by the War Industries Board of any journal that disparaged the draft.

e. The censorship of “The Masses” was prosecuted under the Espionage Act of June 1917, because it carried a cartoon proclaiming that it was a war to “make the world safe for capitalism,” and editorials praising draft resistors. Six editors’ trial resulted in hung juries.

f. He proclaimed that the greatest threat came from ‘hyphenated’ Americans: “I cannot say too often- any man who carries a hyphen about with him carries a dagger that he is ready to plunge into the vitals of this Republic whenever he gets ready.” CONGRESS CHEERS AS WILSON URGES CURB ON PLOTTERS - Wild Applause Greets the President s Denunciation of Disloyal Citizens. ACCLAIM DEFENSE PLANS Members of Both Parties Express Approval of His Sentiments on Preparedness. UPHOLDS PAN-AMERICANISM Warns the World That We Will Defend the Independence and Liberty of the Whole Continent. CONGRESS CHEERS WILSON S ADDRESS - View Article - NYTimes.com

g. “The Nation, on April 17, 1920, recounted how a clothing salesman received six months in jail for saying that Vladimir Lenin was smart.” The Most Brainiest Man The Red Scare and Free Speech in Connecticut
Because the Oklahoma Council of Defense was an extralegal organization, numerous incidents of extreme measures occurred to eliminate dissent. Men were beaten with leather straps and tarred and feathered. OKLAHOMA COUNCIL OF DEFENSE



2. The Justice Department had its own quasi-official fascisti, the American Protective League, the APL. They has ‘Secret Service’ badges, and were charged with keeping an eye on neighbors, co-workers and friends, including reading neighbor’s mail and listening in on their phones with government approval. Membership exceeded a quarter million.
Zinn, Howard, “The Twentieth Century: A People’s History,” p.89-92

a. In Rockford, Illinois, the army asked the APL to extract confessions from 21 black soldiers charged with assaulting white women.
Barry, “The Great Influenza,” p. 124.

b. The APL Vigilante Patrol cracked down on “seditious street oratory,” and as ‘head crackers’ against ‘slackers’ who avoided conscription.



Bet you're sorry you even mentioned Wilson, huh?

 

[nodoginnafight]

We didn't used to.....There was a time when America stood on the moral high ground
How quickly we gave that up

Washington had no mercy with captive redcoats...they talked or were hanged. Lincoln saw what went on at the Fort Delaware prison...same as Andersonville...torture and starvation. Eisenhower starved 100K German prisoners to death. I've already chronicled what we did in Vietnam...

So WHEN was this time you speak of you ignorant jackass?

link

It's a flat out lie.

Washington NEVER condoned torture and I previously provided Washington's words on the issue.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Let's preserve America for people who love America and appreciate the ideals and values that make us great.

Let's preserve America.....ban Liberals.

How would you manage that logistically?

Through education.

Ah...but we HAVE education. And yet, liberals haven't disappeared. In fact we seem to have done quite well in Presidential election years.

Au contraire...we have Liberal-directed and controlled indoctrination.
I certainly agree as to its success.....some even believe (I almost said 'think') that America tortures.....

 

[rightwinger]

We didn't used to.....There was a time when America stood on the moral high ground
How quickly we gave that up

Timeline on that?
Ya' mean since Woodrow Wilson suggested we shed the Constitution....or when FDR ended obedience to it?

Wilson engaged in torture?

You must have him confused with Bush/Cheney

What I wrote was very clear.

This post is inept, even for an oldie like you.

As usual, your post is a rightwing hysterical rant totally unrelated to the subject at hand

It was directly related to your post....

...you don't like it when you're put in your place, huh?


And don't defend Progressive Woodrow Wilson just because you voted for him.


This Wilson:

1. The Wilson Propaganda Ministry

a. George Creel was named to head the Committee on Public Information, the CPI. How liberal was he: “served as police commissioner in Denver, depriving policemen of guns and nightsticks”(www.jstor.org/stable/845226) Fear was a vital tool, “an important element to be bred into the civilian population.” (Goldberg, “Liberal Fascism,” p.109) He recruited about 75,000 "Four Minute Men," who spoke about the War at social events for an ideal length of four minutes, considering that the average human attention span was judged at the time to be four minutes.(George Creel - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia)

b. The official position of the US government's Committee on Public Information was: "The force of an idea lies in its inspirational value. It matters very little if it is true or false."
JTM Full text Comments on the nonpharmaceutical interventions in New York City and Chicago during the 1918 influenza pandemic

c. Wilson’s Sedition Act, May 1918 banned “uttering, printing, writing, or publishing any disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language about the United States government of the military.

d. The postmaster general had authority to deny mailing privileges to any publication: at least 75 were banned. The supply of newsprint was halted by the War Industries Board of any journal that disparaged the draft.

e. The censorship of “The Masses” was prosecuted under the Espionage Act of June 1917, because it carried a cartoon proclaiming that it was a war to “make the world safe for capitalism,” and editorials praising draft resistors. Six editors’ trial resulted in hung juries.

f. He proclaimed that the greatest threat came from ‘hyphenated’ Americans: “I cannot say too often- any man who carries a hyphen about with him carries a dagger that he is ready to plunge into the vitals of this Republic whenever he gets ready.” CONGRESS CHEERS AS WILSON URGES CURB ON PLOTTERS - Wild Applause Greets the President s Denunciation of Disloyal Citizens. ACCLAIM DEFENSE PLANS Members of Both Parties Express Approval of His Sentiments on Preparedness. UPHOLDS PAN-AMERICANISM Warns the World That We Will Defend the Independence and Liberty of the Whole Continent. CONGRESS CHEERS WILSON S ADDRESS - View Article - NYTimes.com

g. “The Nation, on April 17, 1920, recounted how a clothing salesman received six months in jail for saying that Vladimir Lenin was smart.” The Most Brainiest Man The Red Scare and Free Speech in Connecticut
Because the Oklahoma Council of Defense was an extralegal organization, numerous incidents of extreme measures occurred to eliminate dissent. Men were beaten with leather straps and tarred and feathered. OKLAHOMA COUNCIL OF DEFENSE



2. The Justice Department had its own quasi-official fascisti, the American Protective League, the APL. They has ‘Secret Service’ badges, and were charged with keeping an eye on neighbors, co-workers and friends, including reading neighbor’s mail and listening in on their phones with government approval. Membership exceeded a quarter million.
Zinn, Howard, “The Twentieth Century: A People’s History,” p.89-92

a. In Rockford, Illinois, the army asked the APL to extract confessions from 21 black soldiers charged with assaulting white women.
Barry, “The Great Influenza,” p. 124.

b. The APL Vigilante Patrol cracked down on “seditious street oratory,” and as ‘head crackers’ against ‘slackers’ who avoided conscription.



Bet you're sorry you even mentioned Wilson, huh?

As I suspected

Cut and paste totally unrelated to the topic of torture

Don't you have some Joe McCarthy threads to start?

 

[PoliticalChic]

Timeline on that?
Ya' mean since Woodrow Wilson suggested we shed the Constitution....or when FDR ended obedience to it?

Wilson engaged in torture?

You must have him confused with Bush/Cheney

What I wrote was very clear.

This post is inept, even for an oldie like you.

As usual, your post is a rightwing hysterical rant totally unrelated to the subject at hand

It was directly related to your post....

...you don't like it when you're put in your place, huh?


And don't defend Progressive Woodrow Wilson just because you voted for him.


This Wilson:

1. The Wilson Propaganda Ministry

a. George Creel was named to head the Committee on Public Information, the CPI. How liberal was he: “served as police commissioner in Denver, depriving policemen of guns and nightsticks”(www.jstor.org/stable/845226) Fear was a vital tool, “an important element to be bred into the civilian population.” (Goldberg, “Liberal Fascism,” p.109) He recruited about 75,000 "Four Minute Men," who spoke about the War at social events for an ideal length of four minutes, considering that the average human attention span was judged at the time to be four minutes.(George Creel - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia)

b. The official position of the US government's Committee on Public Information was: "The force of an idea lies in its inspirational value. It matters very little if it is true or false."
JTM Full text Comments on the nonpharmaceutical interventions in New York City and Chicago during the 1918 influenza pandemic

c. Wilson’s Sedition Act, May 1918 banned “uttering, printing, writing, or publishing any disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language about the United States government of the military.

d. The postmaster general had authority to deny mailing privileges to any publication: at least 75 were banned. The supply of newsprint was halted by the War Industries Board of any journal that disparaged the draft.

e. The censorship of “The Masses” was prosecuted under the Espionage Act of June 1917, because it carried a cartoon proclaiming that it was a war to “make the world safe for capitalism,” and editorials praising draft resistors. Six editors’ trial resulted in hung juries.

f. He proclaimed that the greatest threat came from ‘hyphenated’ Americans: “I cannot say too often- any man who carries a hyphen about with him carries a dagger that he is ready to plunge into the vitals of this Republic whenever he gets ready.” CONGRESS CHEERS AS WILSON URGES CURB ON PLOTTERS - Wild Applause Greets the President s Denunciation of Disloyal Citizens. ACCLAIM DEFENSE PLANS Members of Both Parties Express Approval of His Sentiments on Preparedness. UPHOLDS PAN-AMERICANISM Warns the World That We Will Defend the Independence and Liberty of the Whole Continent. CONGRESS CHEERS WILSON S ADDRESS - View Article - NYTimes.com

g. “The Nation, on April 17, 1920, recounted how a clothing salesman received six months in jail for saying that Vladimir Lenin was smart.” The Most Brainiest Man The Red Scare and Free Speech in Connecticut
Because the Oklahoma Council of Defense was an extralegal organization, numerous incidents of extreme measures occurred to eliminate dissent. Men were beaten with leather straps and tarred and feathered. OKLAHOMA COUNCIL OF DEFENSE



2. The Justice Department had its own quasi-official fascisti, the American Protective League, the APL. They has ‘Secret Service’ badges, and were charged with keeping an eye on neighbors, co-workers and friends, including reading neighbor’s mail and listening in on their phones with government approval. Membership exceeded a quarter million.
Zinn, Howard, “The Twentieth Century: A People’s History,” p.89-92

a. In Rockford, Illinois, the army asked the APL to extract confessions from 21 black soldiers charged with assaulting white women.
Barry, “The Great Influenza,” p. 124.

b. The APL Vigilante Patrol cracked down on “seditious street oratory,” and as ‘head crackers’ against ‘slackers’ who avoided conscription.



Bet you're sorry you even mentioned Wilson, huh?

As I suspected

Cut and paste totally unrelated to the topic of torture

Don't you have some Joe McCarthy threads to start?

I love making you squirm.

 

[nodoginnafight]

We didn't used to.....There was a time when America stood on the moral high ground
How quickly we gave that up

Washington had no mercy with captive redcoats...they talked or were hanged. Lincoln saw what went on at the Fort Delaware prison...same as Andersonville...torture and starvation. Eisenhower starved 100K German prisoners to death. I've already chronicled what we did in Vietnam...

So WHEN was this time you speak of you ignorant jackass?

link

"“Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any [prisoner]. . . I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary punishment as the enormity of the crime may require."
- George Washington, Sept. 14, 1775

 

[Meathead]

If you actually read the article you would have found that conservatives and moderates, even Democrats, found the interrogations justified while liberals did not.

My comment was directed not at what was found in the article (which I read) but rather at the fact that I don't think torture itself is or should be a left/right issue. Maybe it is, but I would think it should bother people on both sides of the ideological divide. Fear certainly allows us to justify a lot of things that later we deeply regret and were found to be unnecessary and served no useful purpose - for example the internment of the Japanese-Americans.

While many regret the internment of Japanese-Americans, most do not seem to be sorry for the interrogation techniques used on people like KSM. This is the guy's testimony, "I decapitated with my blessed right hand the head of the American Jew,"

Sorry, your equivalency is BS.

Many regret it NOW - years after the fact. How long did it take to even grant the reparations? "Regret" is easy, long after the deed when rationality takes over isn't it? And there are still people who justify it even now.

KSM was only one person. Many of those tortured were of dubious value who may or may not have done anything worth torturing. And even then - no useful informatioin was gained. So what's the real purpose of the torture? Punative?

KSM was only one person? Didn't we already have a short chat about grasping the obvious and spewing platitudes?

When you seem incapable of grasping the obvious, it's a useful technique. Also...having a hissy fit over it certainly allows you to ignore what was said.

As for the rest, how the hell do you know these things? Based on a highly partisan report which has the legitimacy of a Rolling Stone article and has been roundly disavowed by all in the actual intelligence community?

Is it highly partisan simply because it disagrees with your view point? Specifically - what was wrong in the report? The fact that people died? The fact that there was little to no accountability? The fact that some of the prisoners were never charged with anything or found to have done anything wrong?

If I need a conscience or feel like self-flagellating, I'll let you know. In the meantime I call BS once again.

Your conscience or...physical desires...have nothing to do with me. That's your business.

Bull shit. It was highly partisan because it was. Stop with the ding bat stuff. You don't even know enough to know you don't know anything.

Three "know"s in one sentence. Pretty impressive, huh?

Yeah, it can be called torture, but who cares? It damn well worked!

 

[nodoginnafight]

Yeah, torture worked well enough to cost us the lives of 4,500 American soldiers who died tracking down those false WMD leads.

 

[Coyote]

It's a fine line when one of the things we value is a free and open society - how far are people really willing to go, and sacrifice those freedoms, in order to have "security"?

Most of the time - like the internment of the Japanese, people are perfectly willing to sacrifice the rights and freedoms of "others" - as long as it's not their own. Same with torture - it doesn't matter that information can be gained another way, or that the people being tortured may or may not have done anything wrong - they aren't "us" so we're willing to sacrifice them thinking it will make us safer because we're afraid.

There's been a huge upsurge in school shootings and random gun violence - should the rights of gun owners be sacrificed for public safety?

Well, we were in pretty much the same place after Pearl Harbor that we were after 9/11...not knowing what was coming next. It's easy to criticize after the smoke has cleared.....forgetting to thank those who cleared the smoke for us. Should the Japanese have been put in camps? Nobody knows how much sabotage and insurgency was prevented but there would have been some. The difference between interning the Japanese but not the German Americans was one of simple reality....our Germans never believed Hitler was a deity like the Japs believed Hirohito was....no German pilot was ever involved in a planned kamikaze attack...they were fanatics of a whole different stripe.

I agree - it's easy, in hindsight to be judgemental. However - even then, there were people who opposed those measures. It's not that different than the issue of torture - there were people who opposed it at the onset and who still do now that a lot more has been revealed. My opinion on it hasn't changed from then to now.

I would rather take the risk of possible terrorist attacks then start to carve away at our rights and especially, the rights of those in our country least able to defend themselves against the fear of the majority. I'm not sure if I'm making sense - it's difficult to find the right words.

 

[Coyote]

My comment was directed not at what was found in the article (which I read) but rather at the fact that I don't think torture itself is or should be a left/right issue. Maybe it is, but I would think it should bother people on both sides of the ideological divide. Fear certainly allows us to justify a lot of things that later we deeply regret and were found to be unnecessary and served no useful purpose - for example the internment of the Japanese-Americans.

While many regret the internment of Japanese-Americans, most do not seem to be sorry for the interrogation techniques used on people like KSM. This is the guy's testimony, "I decapitated with my blessed right hand the head of the American Jew,"

Sorry, your equivalency is BS.

Many regret it NOW - years after the fact. How long did it take to even grant the reparations? "Regret" is easy, long after the deed when rationality takes over isn't it? And there are still people who justify it even now.

KSM was only one person. Many of those tortured were of dubious value who may or may not have done anything worth torturing. And even then - no useful informatioin was gained. So what's the real purpose of the torture? Punative?

KSM was only one person? Didn't we already have a short chat about grasping the obvious and spewing platitudes?

When you seem incapable of grasping the obvious, it's a useful technique. Also...having a hissy fit over it certainly allows you to ignore what was said.

As for the rest, how the hell do you know these things? Based on a highly partisan report which has the legitimacy of a Rolling Stone article and has been roundly disavowed by all in the actual intelligence community?

Is it highly partisan simply because it disagrees with your view point? Specifically - what was wrong in the report? The fact that people died? The fact that there was little to no accountability? The fact that some of the prisoners were never charged with anything or found to have done anything wrong?

If I need a conscience or feel like self-flagellating, I'll let you know. In the meantime I call BS once again.

Your conscience or...physical desires...have nothing to do with me. That's your business.

Bull shit. It was highly partisan because it was. Stop with the ding bat stuff. You don't even know enough to know you don't know anything.

Three "know"s in one sentence. Pretty impressive, huh?

Yeah, it can be called torture, but who cares? It damn well worked!

Ok. You're good at the name calling but weak on substance.

What did the report present that was wrong?

 

[Pop23]

It's been answered

If it takes nuking the barbarians......

Proceed

What is your suggestion for Ground Zero?

It only takes one. Do I get to pick it?

Believe me......

I'd be happy to

It only takes one? You think all the bad guys are within range of one nuke? Ok, what would you pick as Ground Zero? And why?

I don't need to take them all out. Just enough to bite off the snakes head.

The rest of your questions lead me to believe you do not understand this enemy.

I understand enough to notice you seem hesitant to speak up as to where you want your Ground Zero to be. Are you afraid to say?

You understand we aren't fighting a country, right? You understand this enemy has no established military bases, correct?

Pinpointing a location against the wandering herds would be impossible until such a time the bomb was authorized.

But continue with your fairy tale life Bodey, you make us laugh.

 

[BullKurtz]

BWAAAAH

Yeah it takes a "real man" to abandon America's ideals and principles because the big bad ol' terrorists made 'em soil their lil' panties.

It's embarrassing.

Man don't you folks have ANY pride?

"ideals and principles"? You don't have a clue what's been done for you to be able to write crap like that....in English. You want the truth? YOU CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH! What we take pride in is overcoming the shit Clinton did to give us 9/11 and the pitiful cowardice of the Kenyan you rubes put in office to do it again.....go buy a koran and a prayer rug fool....you belong with them.

 

[Vandalshandle]