Tolerance? Not for Christians...

[Newby]

You can't be an oppressed minority when you're the dominant majority. That's why I thanked Kalam's post. He made a good point.

No one was saying anything about oppression, I think the word was discrimination, and it can happen to anyone.

She's not being discriminated against. She's refusing to comply with professional counseling standards. She's placing the Bible over APA and ACA ethics.

No, she is not, Sky, that's an outright lie. She hasn't freakin' counseled anyone because she's still in school. Provide a damn link to show where she has used a Bible in counseling anyone. I thought you were better than that?

 

[Newby]

The counseling program abides by both the ACA and the APA guidelines. Ms Keeton's own words tell the true story.

She said she could not affirm a gay or lesbian's lifestyle. A client does not go to see a counselor to be condemned as wrong for who he or she happens to love.

Perhaps she would neither affirm, nor condemn. As a professional, according to evidence you have posted, the APA does not consider it a disorder, therefore she would not be required to 'treat' it at all. It's a moot point. Neither has she ever said she would push her views or opinions on anyone while counseling, that's something that's been made up throughout this entire thread and is based on dishonesty. At least be honest and admit that you are making assumptions about what she would or would not do, because that's exactly what you are doing.

Actually, she has stated that she would be compelled to not affirm homosexuality in a counseling session. Considering the guidelines of the APA/ACA include non-discrimination that means she would be unable to counsel gay and lesbian clients.

As far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't care if she got her degree as long as she didn't get the certification that states she follows the ethics of the counseling profession. She should stay away from counseling gays and lesbians. She clearly cannot keep her bias out of the counseling session. She thinks Christian morals work for ALL people. She's wrong. She has no business imposing her biblical value system on her clients.

Here are the APA guidelines:
"Before beginning any treatment with a homosexual client, a therapist has the responsibility of making sure he or she is well versed on issues related to sexuality, has the skills necessary to create a positive and nonjudgmental environment, and will not feel uncomfortable discussing issues related to homosexuality. If a therapist believes homosexuality is wrong, sinful, immoral, or a mental illness, he or she should NOT work with gay clients. Refer this client to someone who is able to provide the necessary components of a therapeutic relationship." Couples therapy should be treated no different than marital therapy, aside from the obvious legal and social issues. Any bias a therapist has will be very difficult to hide when dealing with relationship issues with a gay or lesbian client. Their relationships should be treated with the same legitimacy as any committed relationship, and the therapist should be aware that like any sexual relationship, their may be intimacy concerns, fidelity issues, children, parents, and other issues that may be a part of treatment. Be prepared for this and once again, refer out if you are not able to accept and respect your client."

Keeton believes homosexuality is wrong, immoral and sinful. She has stated she is unwilling to affirm a homosexual relationship. She considers homosexuality a mental illness--identity confusion. She has stated Christian values are applicable to ALL people. She isn't willing to take diversity training and learn something about gay and lesbian people.

Even in your own post the APA says to not work with them and to refer them to another therapist, it doesn't state that they can't get their license. And it certainly has nothing to do with the school graduating her with the degree that she has earned and paid for.

 

[Coyote]

Perhaps she would neither affirm, nor condemn. As a professional, according to evidence you have posted, the APA does not consider it a disorder, therefore she would not be required to 'treat' it at all. It's a moot point. Neither has she ever said she would push her views or opinions on anyone while counseling, that's something that's been made up throughout this entire thread and is based on dishonesty. At least be honest and admit that you are making assumptions about what she would or would not do, because that's exactly what you are doing.

Actually, she has stated that she would be compelled to not affirm homosexuality in a counseling session. Considering the guidelines of the APA/ACA include non-discrimination that means she would be unable to counsel gay and lesbian clients.

As far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't care if she got her degree as long as she didn't get the certification that states she follows the ethics of the counseling profession. She should stay away from counseling gays and lesbians. She clearly cannot keep her bias out of the counseling session. She thinks Christian morals work for ALL people. She's wrong. She has no business imposing her biblical value system on her clients.

Here are the APA guidelines:
"Before beginning any treatment with a homosexual client, a therapist has the responsibility of making sure he or she is well versed on issues related to sexuality, has the skills necessary to create a positive and nonjudgmental environment, and will not feel uncomfortable discussing issues related to homosexuality. If a therapist believes homosexuality is wrong, sinful, immoral, or a mental illness, he or she should NOT work with gay clients. Refer this client to someone who is able to provide the necessary components of a therapeutic relationship." Couples therapy should be treated no different than marital therapy, aside from the obvious legal and social issues. Any bias a therapist has will be very difficult to hide when dealing with relationship issues with a gay or lesbian client. Their relationships should be treated with the same legitimacy as any committed relationship, and the therapist should be aware that like any sexual relationship, their may be intimacy concerns, fidelity issues, children, parents, and other issues that may be a part of treatment. Be prepared for this and once again, refer out if you are not able to accept and respect your client."

Keeton believes homosexuality is wrong, immoral and sinful. She has stated she is unwilling to affirm a homosexual relationship. She considers homosexuality a mental illness--identity confusion. She has stated Christian values are applicable to ALL people. She isn't willing to take diversity training and learn something about gay and lesbian people.

Even in your own post the APA says to not work with them and to refer them to another therapist, it doesn't state that they can't get their license. And it certainly has nothing to do with the school graduating her with the degree that she has earned and paid for.

In order to get their license, they have to show the ability to counseling a broad array of clients. It's not too different then MD's doing rotations even though they will subsequently be specializing in only one of those areas. Once they are licensed then they can opt not to work with certain people andn refer them to someone more appropriate.

But that is after they have attained their professional degree and, if Ms. Keeton is a proponent of conversion therapy, it does not seem likely she will refer.

 

[Coyote]

No one was saying anything about oppression, I think the word was discrimination, and it can happen to anyone.

She's not being discriminated against. She's refusing to comply with professional counseling standards. She's placing the Bible over APA and ACA ethics.

No, she is not, Sky, that's an outright lie. She hasn't freakin' counseled anyone because she's still in school. Provide a damn link to show where she has used a Bible in counseling anyone. I thought you were better than that?

That's a strawman - she is not making that argument. The argument is that Ms. Keeton is unable to seperate her biblical values from her professional ethics and may allow her religious beliefs to over-rule her professional standards.

In her schoolwork and practicum - she has to show she is able to abide by the professional standards she will need to if she graduates. She doesn't have to be actually counseling to be accountable to those standards.

 

[Newby]

Actually, she has stated that she would be compelled to not affirm homosexuality in a counseling session. Considering the guidelines of the APA/ACA include non-discrimination that means she would be unable to counsel gay and lesbian clients.

As far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't care if she got her degree as long as she didn't get the certification that states she follows the ethics of the counseling profession. She should stay away from counseling gays and lesbians. She clearly cannot keep her bias out of the counseling session. She thinks Christian morals work for ALL people. She's wrong. She has no business imposing her biblical value system on her clients.

Here are the APA guidelines:
"Before beginning any treatment with a homosexual client, a therapist has the responsibility of making sure he or she is well versed on issues related to sexuality, has the skills necessary to create a positive and nonjudgmental environment, and will not feel uncomfortable discussing issues related to homosexuality. If a therapist believes homosexuality is wrong, sinful, immoral, or a mental illness, he or she should NOT work with gay clients. Refer this client to someone who is able to provide the necessary components of a therapeutic relationship." Couples therapy should be treated no different than marital therapy, aside from the obvious legal and social issues. Any bias a therapist has will be very difficult to hide when dealing with relationship issues with a gay or lesbian client. Their relationships should be treated with the same legitimacy as any committed relationship, and the therapist should be aware that like any sexual relationship, their may be intimacy concerns, fidelity issues, children, parents, and other issues that may be a part of treatment. Be prepared for this and once again, refer out if you are not able to accept and respect your client."

Keeton believes homosexuality is wrong, immoral and sinful. She has stated she is unwilling to affirm a homosexual relationship. She considers homosexuality a mental illness--identity confusion. She has stated Christian values are applicable to ALL people. She isn't willing to take diversity training and learn something about gay and lesbian people.

Even in your own post the APA says to not work with them and to refer them to another therapist, it doesn't state that they can't get their license. And it certainly has nothing to do with the school graduating her with the degree that she has earned and paid for.

In order to get their license, they have to show the ability to counseling a broad array of clients. It's not too different then MD's doing rotations even though they will subsequently be specializing in only one of those areas. Once they are licensed then they can opt not to work with certain people andn refer them to someone more appropriate.

But that is after they have attained their professional degree and, if Ms. Keeton is a proponent of conversion therapy, it does not seem likely she will refer.

Yeah, the facists are hard at work to take her down and make sure she doesn't get what she paid for and worked for. Congrats! You people are pathetic.

 

[Coyote]

Even in your own post the APA says to not work with them and to refer them to another therapist, it doesn't state that they can't get their license. And it certainly has nothing to do with the school graduating her with the degree that she has earned and paid for.

In order to get their license, they have to show the ability to counseling a broad array of clients. It's not too different then MD's doing rotations even though they will subsequently be specializing in only one of those areas. Once they are licensed then they can opt not to work with certain people andn refer them to someone more appropriate.

But that is after they have attained their professional degree and, if Ms. Keeton is a proponent of conversion therapy, it does not seem likely she will refer.

Yeah, the facists are hard at work to take her down and make sure she doesn't get what she paid for and worked for. Congrats! You people are pathetic.

No. The fascists aren't doing a damn thing.

Tell me, how do you feel about voodoo in the medical field? That question, along with faith healing, remain hanging.

 

[Newby]

She's not being discriminated against. She's refusing to comply with professional counseling standards. She's placing the Bible over APA and ACA ethics.

No, she is not, Sky, that's an outright lie. She hasn't freakin' counseled anyone because she's still in school. Provide a damn link to show where she has used a Bible in counseling anyone. I thought you were better than that?

That's a strawman - she is not making that argument. The argument is that Ms. Keeton is unable to seperate her biblical values from her professional ethics and may allow her religious beliefs to over-rule her professional standards.
In her schoolwork and practicum - she has to show she is able to abide by the professional standards she will need to if she graduates. She doesn't have to be actually counseling to be accountable to those standards.

Excuse my language, Coyote, but that is a ******* lie. I'm tired of hearing it. She has not shown that, she has not yet worked in a professional capacity, and she has publically stated (which I've posted in this thread somewhere) that she could indeed separate her beliefs from her profession.

In Sky's own post she stated that the APA has allowances for referral in a situation where your beliefs will not allow you to work with someone. It wouldn't surprise me if the school purposely went out of their way to place her into this situation so they could do exactly what they're doing.

 

[AllieBaba]

Well then if you want to campaign to change the ethics of the entire counseling field have at it. That's what the Alliance Defense Fund seeks. To make Christianity the ethics of the counseling field. And not just Christianity, but the narrow kind that Ms Keeton practices.

Plenty of Christians love and accept gay people. Keeton does not. What Keeton wants to do would be harmful to gay and lesbian clients.

The ethics of the profession say do no harm.

A.4.a. Avoiding Harm

Counselors act to avoid harming their clients, trainees, and research participants
and to minimize or to remedy unavoidable or unanticipated harm.

So when did Miss Keaton harm her clients?

She didn't.

Has she even had any clients yet?

Exactly, you ******* moron. The claims that she has tried to force her clients or intends to force her clients to listen to her proselytize is complete hogwash. She is being persecuted because in a safe environment, in a classroom and out of it, while discussing issues with her classmates and friends, she has openly stated she is Christian. When she did this, ears perked up and they decided to required her, based upon her RELIGIOUS CONVICTIONS, to participate in additional re-education that nobody else has been asked to participate in, and to promise to "support" clients in their homosexual endeavors. Based upon her faith only.

 

[Newby]

In order to get their license, they have to show the ability to counseling a broad array of clients. It's not too different then MD's doing rotations even though they will subsequently be specializing in only one of those areas. Once they are licensed then they can opt not to work with certain people andn refer them to someone more appropriate.

But that is after they have attained their professional degree and, if Ms. Keeton is a proponent of conversion therapy, it does not seem likely she will refer.

Yeah, the facists are hard at work to take her down and make sure she doesn't get what she paid for and worked for. Congrats! You people are pathetic.

No. The fascists aren't doing a damn thing.

Tell me, how do you feel about voodoo in the medical field? That question, along with faith healing, remain hanging.

If voo doo had anything to do with the situation at hand, maybe I would tell you, but it doesn't. It's a bullshit argument.

 

[Coyote]

Should an athiest be allowed to graduate from divinity school and preach?

 

[Newby]

Should an athiest be allowed to graduate from divinity school and preach?

Why would an atheist want too to begin with? Another bad comparison. This woman has a right to be a counselor if she wants to be one and hasn't acted in any unethical way that would prohibit her from being one. She has not acted in such a way, but the thought police with their pitch forks and torches are going to make damn sure that everyone thinks she has and try to strip her of all of her credentials by foul means. It's a shame what people will stoop too to try to rationalize their bigotry.

 

[AllieBaba]

In order to get their license, they have to show the ability to counseling a broad array of clients. It's not too different then MD's doing rotations even though they will subsequently be specializing in only one of those areas. Once they are licensed then they can opt not to work with certain people andn refer them to someone more appropriate.

But that is after they have attained their professional degree and, if Ms. Keeton is a proponent of conversion therapy, it does not seem likely she will refer.

Yeah, the facists are hard at work to take her down and make sure she doesn't get what she paid for and worked for. Congrats! You people are pathetic.

No. The fascists aren't doing a damn thing.

Tell me, how do you feel about voodoo in the medical field? That question, along with faith healing, remain hanging.

So when did she force her clients to listen to her views on faith?

Oh, that's right. Never.

 

[Coyote]

No, she is not, Sky, that's an outright lie. She hasn't freakin' counseled anyone because she's still in school. Provide a damn link to show where she has used a Bible in counseling anyone. I thought you were better than that?

That's a strawman - she is not making that argument. The argument is that Ms. Keeton is unable to seperate her biblical values from her professional ethics and may allow her religious beliefs to over-rule her professional standards.
In her schoolwork and practicum - she has to show she is able to abide by the professional standards she will need to if she graduates. She doesn't have to be actually counseling to be accountable to those standards.

Excuse my language, Coyote, but that is a ******* lie. I'm tired of hearing it. She has not shown that, she has not yet worked in a professional capacity, and she has publically stated (which I've posted in this thread somewhere) that she could indeed separate her beliefs from her profession.

She has publically stated that she would not and could not "affirm" a homosexual's lifestyle. Affirmation is part of the professional standard, and has been quoted numerous times.

If she can not do that, then how can she "indeed separate her beliefs from her profession"? Perhaps it's these contradictions that concern the faculty in her program. Counseling young people involves a high degree of empathy - it is not moralistic and judgemental. If you are unable seperate out your personal feelings in order to empathize with a client, are you truely able to do the job? The remediation program she is supposed to undergo is supposed to help her with that.

In Sky's own post she stated that the APA has allowances for referral in a situation where your beliefs will not allow you to work with someone. It wouldn't surprise me if the school purposely went out of their way to place her into this situation so they could do exactly what they're doing.

You totally skip over the fact that she is not yet a professional, and just like a medical student is not yet a professional he must go through rotations showing he has the ability to work in a variety of specialties even though he will eventually only be assuming one. She needs to show she can do the whole caboodle before opting out of part of it.

It wouldn't surprise me if the group that is supporting (and likely paying) for her lawsuit is the one putting her up to this. I highly doubt she is the only Christian in that program, but she is the only one who apparently can't do what is academically required in order to graduate from that program.

 

[Coyote]

Yeah, the facists are hard at work to take her down and make sure she doesn't get what she paid for and worked for. Congrats! You people are pathetic.

No. The fascists aren't doing a damn thing.

Tell me, how do you feel about voodoo in the medical field? That question, along with faith healing, remain hanging.

So when did she force her clients to listen to her views on faith?

Oh, that's right. Never.

Nice strawman.

Now read the posts.

 

[Coyote]

Should an athiest be allowed to graduate from divinity school and preach?

Why would an atheist want too to begin with? Another bad comparison. This woman has a right to be a counselor if she wants to be one and hasn't acted in any unethical way that would prohibit her from being one. She has not acted in such a way, but the thought police with their pitch forks and torches are going to make damn sure that everyone thinks she has and try to strip her of all of her credentials by foul means. It's a shame what people will stoop too to try to rationalize their bigotry.

No one has "the right" to be a counselor. They earn that right by showing they meet the requirements.

So let me ask you: why would someone choose to enter a program, knowing she is going to have substantial ethical issues with a portion of it? Perhaps, for the same reason as the athiest wanting to enter divinity school, so he can preach what he feels, is the correct version of the religion?

 

[Coyote]

Yeah, the facists are hard at work to take her down and make sure she doesn't get what she paid for and worked for. Congrats! You people are pathetic.

No. The fascists aren't doing a damn thing.

Tell me, how do you feel about voodoo in the medical field? That question, along with faith healing, remain hanging.

If voo doo had anything to do with the situation at hand, maybe I would tell you, but it doesn't. It's a bullshit argument.

No. The "bullshit" part, is the fact that you guys keep ignoring it.

Sky wrote:

Voodoo is a religious form of faith healing. Should the AMA adopt voodoo in it's medical standards or ask medical students to follow AMA guidelines? Is this oppressive to the voodoo religion?

Keeton's biblical views on homosexuality are as off the ACA standards as voodoo is for the AMA. She can believe whatever she wants to, but if she wants to become a certified school counselor from an accredited institution she has to abide by the ethical guidelines they set forth. She has made it clear that she won't. She has clearly stated she won't affirm homosexuality.

So tell me, should the AMA adopt voodo in it's standards or should medical students follow the AMA guidelines? Why or why not?

 

[Father Time]

So when did Miss Keaton harm her clients?

She didn't.

Has she even had any clients yet?

Exactly, you ******* moron. The claims that she has tried to force her clients or intends to force her clients to listen to her proselytize is complete hogwash. She is being persecuted because in a safe environment, in a classroom and out of it, while discussing issues with her classmates and friends, she has openly stated she is Christian. When she did this, ears perked up and they decided to required her, based upon her RELIGIOUS CONVICTIONS, to participate in additional re-education that nobody else has been asked to participate in, and to promise to "support" clients in their homosexual endeavors. Based upon her faith only.

And your proof of this ludicrous conspiracy theory is...?

Has it happened to most other Christians or is it just her?

 

[AllieBaba]

They do have the right not to have additional requirements heaped upon them based upon faith alone.

Which is what is happening here.

 

[AllieBaba]

No. The fascists aren't doing a damn thing.

Tell me, how do you feel about voodoo in the medical field? That question, along with faith healing, remain hanging.

If voo doo had anything to do with the situation at hand, maybe I would tell you, but it doesn't. It's a bullshit argument.

No. The "bullshit" part, is the fact that you guys keep ignoring it.

Sky wrote:

Voodoo is a religious form of faith healing. Should the AMA adopt voodoo in it's medical standards or ask medical students to follow AMA guidelines? Is this oppressive to the voodoo religion?

Keeton's biblical views on homosexuality are as off the ACA standards as voodoo is for the AMA. She can believe whatever she wants to, but if she wants to become a certified school counselor from an accredited institution she has to abide by the ethical guidelines they set forth. She has made it clear that she won't. She has clearly stated she won't affirm homosexuality.

So tell me, should the AMA adopt voodo in it's standards or should medical students follow the AMA guidelines? Why or why not?

It figures that you morons start whining about straw men about the time you start posting them.

 

[AllieBaba]

Has she even had any clients yet?

Exactly, you ******* moron. The claims that she has tried to force her clients or intends to force her clients to listen to her proselytize is complete hogwash. She is being persecuted because in a safe environment, in a classroom and out of it, while discussing issues with her classmates and friends, she has openly stated she is Christian. When she did this, ears perked up and they decided to required her, based upon her RELIGIOUS CONVICTIONS, to participate in additional re-education that nobody else has been asked to participate in, and to promise to "support" clients in their homosexual endeavors. Based upon her faith only.

And your proof of this ludicrous conspiracy theory is...?

Has it happened to most other Christians or is it just her?

Straw man.