Tolerance? Not for Christians...

[Sky Dancer]

Actually, Madeline, I think the LIGHT wants the US to become a Christian theocracy.

That's bullshit and completely dishonest. I would have expected better than that from you, very disappointing.

Read his posts.

 

[Sky Dancer]

In case you do not understand the school is not the APA.

And I highly doubt that the written curriculum for the school stated anything at all about having to discard one's faith prior to graduation nor I am sure did it state anything at all about not imposing one's personal values on their client by setting up boundaries so as not to be judgmental. Although, anyone that wanted to be a counselor would know that is inappropriate and would not attempt to do so.

I hate to say it, but the fact is that despite you and Coyote insisting repeatedly throughout these threads, there is not a shred of evidence that Ms. Keeton would not provide very professional counseling to anyone.

You two can continue to insist that this is the case, but you have not proven it to be so.



She never said she would espouse her faith upon others.

Again, you can keep repeating this inaccurate statement that she plans on proselytizing but the only people you will convince are people that have not and will not read the articles.

Immie

The counseling program abides by both the ACA and the APA guidelines. Ms Keeton's own words tell the true story.

She said she could not affirm a gay or lesbian's lifestyle. A client does not go to see a counselor to be condemned as wrong for who he or she happens to love.

Perhaps she would neither affirm, nor condemn. As a professional, according to evidence you have posted, the APA does not consider it a disorder, therefore she would not be required to 'treat' it at all. It's a moot point. Neither has she ever said she would push her views or opinions on anyone while counseling, that's something that's been made up throughout this entire thread and is based on dishonesty. At least be honest and admit that you are making assumptions about what she would or would not do, because that's exactly what you are doing.

Actually Keeton has stated that she would not affirm her clients lifestyle. She has stated that Christian morals are applicable to ALL.

She has stated homosexuality is identity confusion. It is Keeton who is confused. She doesn't know whether she wants to be a professonal counselor or a Christian minister.

 

[Sky Dancer]

And you 'thank' him Sky? Seriously? If living under his religion, you wouldn't even dare to admit that you're gay for fear of being killed, and yet you would 'thank' him for his posts? That's amazing that you would 'affirm' his beliefs, yet be dishonest about christian beliefs all because they 'affect you personally'. I guess you better hope that the lousy christians in this country keep defending the constitution that they wrote that gave you the freedoms that you have from the onslaught of muslim theocrasy that's taking place around the globe.

You can't be an oppressed minority when you're the dominant majority. That's why I thanked Kalam's post. He made a good point.

No one was saying anything about oppression, I think the word was discrimination, and it can happen to anyone.

She's not being discriminated against. She's refusing to comply with professional counseling standards. She's placing the Bible over APA and ACA ethics.

 

[Sky Dancer]

In case you do not understand the school is not the APA.

And I highly doubt that the written curriculum for the school stated anything at all about having to discard one's faith prior to graduation nor I am sure did it state anything at all about not imposing one's personal values on their client by setting up boundaries so as not to be judgmental. Although, anyone that wanted to be a counselor would know that is inappropriate and would not attempt to do so.

I hate to say it, but the fact is that despite you and Coyote insisting repeatedly throughout these threads, there is not a shred of evidence that Ms. Keeton would not provide very professional counseling to anyone.

You two can continue to insist that this is the case, but you have not proven it to be so.



She never said she would espouse her faith upon others.

Again, you can keep repeating this inaccurate statement that she plans on proselytizing but the only people you will convince are people that have not and will not read the articles.

Immie

The counseling program abides by both the ACA and the APA guidelines. Ms Keeton's own words tell the true story.

She said she could not affirm a gay or lesbian's lifestyle. A client does not go to see a counselor to be condemned as wrong for who he or she happens to love.

Perhaps she would neither affirm, nor condemn. As a professional, according to evidence you have posted, the APA does not consider it a disorder, therefore she would not be required to 'treat' it at all. It's a moot point. Neither has she ever said she would push her views or opinions on anyone while counseling, that's something that's been made up throughout this entire thread and is based on dishonesty. At least be honest and admit that you are making assumptions about what she would or would not do, because that's exactly what you are doing.

Actually, she has stated that she would be compelled to not affirm homosexuality in a counseling session. Considering the guidelines of the APA/ACA include non-discrimination that means she would be unable to counsel gay and lesbian clients.

As far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't care if she got her degree as long as she didn't get the certification that states she follows the ethics of the counseling profession. She should stay away from counseling gays and lesbians. She clearly cannot keep her bias out of the counseling session. She thinks Christian morals work for ALL people. She's wrong. She has no business imposing her biblical value system on her clients.

Here are the APA guidelines:
"Before beginning any treatment with a homosexual client, a therapist has the responsibility of making sure he or she is well versed on issues related to sexuality, has the skills necessary to create a positive and nonjudgmental environment, and will not feel uncomfortable discussing issues related to homosexuality. If a therapist believes homosexuality is wrong, sinful, immoral, or a mental illness, he or she should NOT work with gay clients. Refer this client to someone who is able to provide the necessary components of a therapeutic relationship." Couples therapy should be treated no different than marital therapy, aside from the obvious legal and social issues. Any bias a therapist has will be very difficult to hide when dealing with relationship issues with a gay or lesbian client. Their relationships should be treated with the same legitimacy as any committed relationship, and the therapist should be aware that like any sexual relationship, their may be intimacy concerns, fidelity issues, children, parents, and other issues that may be a part of treatment. Be prepared for this and once again, refer out if you are not able to accept and respect your client."

Keeton believes homosexuality is wrong, immoral and sinful. She has stated she is unwilling to affirm a homosexual relationship. She considers homosexuality a mental illness--identity confusion. She has stated Christian values are applicable to ALL people. She isn't willing to take diversity training and learn something about gay and lesbian people.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Keeton would rather file a lawsuit than comply with her counselor training program like every other student. She thinks the Bible puts her above her academic requirements. She faovrs conversion therapy. She refuses the education that is offered to her.

"Reparative Therapy"

The American Counseling Association has adopted a resolution that states that it: "opposes portrayals of lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth and adults as mentally ill due to their sexual orientation; and supports the dissemination of accurate information about sexual orientation, mental health, and appropriate interventions in order to counteract bias that is based on ignorance or unfounded beliefs about same-gender sexual orientation." [Resolution adopted by American Counseling Association Governing Council, March 1998.] Further, at its 1999 World Conference, ACA adopted a position opposing the promotion of "reparative therapy" as a "cure" for individuals who are homosexual. [Action by American Counseling Association Governing Council, April 1999.]

Taken from The American Psychological Association Online Fact Sheet — Just the Facts About Sexual Orientation & Youth: A Primer for Principals, Educators and School Personnel.

 

[Coyote]

Standards don't set themselves.

And that is relevant to the issue - how?

Point being, those who wrote the standards chose to impose their beliefs upon those getting accredited by being bigoted towards the beliefs of Christians.

Probably the same sort of people who wrote the medical standards excluding faith healing and thus impose their beliefs upon those getting accredited by being bigoted towards the beliefs of Christians.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Voodoo is a religious form of faith healing. Should the AMA adopt voodoo in it's medical standards or ask medical students to follow AMA guidelines? Is this oppressive to the voodoo religion?

Keeton's biblical views on homosexuality are as off the ACA standards as voodoo is for the AMA. She can believe whatever she wants to, but if she wants to become a certified school counselor from an accredited institution she has to abide by the ethical guidelines they set forth. She has made it clear that she won't. She has clearly stated she won't affirm homosexuality.

This is the standard she rejects:

Ethical Standards for School Counselors

http://www.schoolcounselor.org/content.asp?contentid=173
" Each person has the right to be respected, be treated with dignity and have access to a comprehensive school counseling program that advocates for and affirms all students from diverse populations regardless of ethnic/racial status, age, economic status, special needs, English as a second language or other language group, immigration status, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity/expression, family type, religious/spiritual identity and appearance……..

 

[Coyote]

However, up until the post that I am now quoting, you have not yet shown a hairs breadth of evidence that Ms. Keeton would violate any of those guidelines. You keep claiming that she would and that she has said she would, but none of the articles about this case have actually said that.

I am beginning to think that you guys think she is a liar for no other reason than that she is a Christian.

Immie

But SkyDancer did post that - in Keeton's own words, she said: “[Y]ou are requiring me to alter my objective beliefs and also to commit now that if I ever may have a client who wants me to affirm their decision to have an abortion or engage in gay, lesbian, or transgender behavior, I will do that. I can’t alter my biblical beliefs, and I will not affirm the morality of those behaviors in a counseling situation.”

Sky then posted the guidelines pertaining to it.

Does Keeton deny saying that?

Apparently, Keeton is the only one making some of these claims - they do not seem substantiated by her peers at school, or any of the school faculty or staff. It seems she is not being totally honest and it has nothing to do with her being Christian or not, but with the evidence presented thus far.

Since when are counselors required to cite their support any choice a client makes? That is not something that is required of any counselor. They are requiring it of THIS student because she's a Christian and made the horrific mistake of openly espousing Christian values.

The school should lose all financial support from the state and the feds.

Umm...no. Are you a counseler? Part of the profession involves seperating your own personal feelings from those of your client. As a profession, it also does not cast value or moral judgements on the client.

Sky Dancer made it pretty clear (as she has throughout this debate):

The Preamble to the ASCA document additionally states that Professional school counselors . . . subscrib[e] to the following tenets of professional
responsibility:

· Each person has the right to be respected, be treated with dignity and have access to a comprehensive school counseling program that advocates for and
affirms all students from diverse populations regardless of ethnic/racial status, age, economic status, special needs, English as a second language or other
language group, immigration status, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity/expression, family type, religious/spiritual identity and appearance.

Keeton has stated she doesn't respect homosexuality. She condemns it as wrong and cannot affirm the lifestyle of gay and lesbian clients.

Ms. Keeton should have been well aware of the tenets of her chosen profession by this time yet she chose to continue. Personally, I have an issue the use of animal testing in such industries as cosmetics. Would it be appropriate for me to go into a program that involves animal subjects, and then complain that it is against my belief system when the requirements of my program requires me to handle those animals? I wouldn't think so.

In fact, I don't understand why, if her beliefs were so strong that she couldn't follow the neccessary tenets - she did not go into a religious counseling vocation which would have been more appropriate for her goals and beliefs?

Why does she, and her supporters think that the entire profession must be remodeled to accommodate her particular belief system?

 

[Sky Dancer]

Bingo, Coyote

The university has to consider how to keep it's accreditation. If the student is unwilling to abide by the standards of the profession the faculty has a responsibility to advise the student to change programs.

From just page 5 of the 2009 Standards of The Council for Accreditation of Counseling and Related Educational
Programs (CACREP)…..

I. The Academic Unit
P. The program faculty conducts a systematic developmental assessment of each student’s progress throughout the program, including consideration of the student’s academic performance, professional development, and personal development. Consistent with established institutional due process policy and the American Counseling Association’s (ACA) code of ethics and other relevant codes of ethics and standards of practice, if evaluations indicate that a student is not appropriate for the program, faculty members help facilitate the student’s transition out of the program and, if possible, into a more appropriate area of study.

 

[Coyote]

But she is finding it more...er...satisfying to play the martyr now.

Keeton notes that the professors told her that they wanted her to change her view that her moral system was right for everybody. She was told that what they wanted her to do was change to a position that while her moral views may be fine for her, she should not expect others to conform to those views.

Frankly, I think Keeton is a pawn in the Alliance Defense Fund's game.

Here's a link to Keeton's complaint:
http://www.telladf.org/userdocs/KeetonComplaint.pdf

Here is Keeton's own words:

"I think the Bible’s teaching is true for all people, and it shows the right way to live."

Here is her professors response:

" I do not expect you to change your personal beliefs and values. What is the issue is if you believe your personal beliefs and values should be the same beliefs and values for all people. This is the unethical part—applying your own personal beliefs and values on other people and not truly accepting that others can have different beliefs and values that are equally valid as your own."

Thoughts can't be unethical, Sky.

And neither you nor anyone else, including professors, are allowed to punish people based on their thoughts.

And not only that..."applying your own personal beliefs and values on other people" ... does that include telling someone their beliefs are wrong? Because that's exactly what is being done here. She's not allowed to think or say she believes her religion is the one religion.

What utter horseshit. I'll stand by and wait for all the Muslims to be evicted from schools now. Of course that won't happen. Because it's not about religion, it's about Christianity.

That is totally irrrational. Are you not reading the posts??? She is not being punished for her thoughts. She was specifically told she is entitled to her beliefs and, entitled to do what she wishes with them in her private life. What she CAN NOT do is force those beliefs on a client because that runs COUNTER to the tenets of her desired profession.

Honest to god - if a lawyer acted in that manner, he'd be disbarred. If a doctor acted in that manner she'd lose her license. If a minister in certain denominations, advocated for gay marriage - the church would fire him from his post, and they'd have a perfect right to - because he is not adhering to the tenets and ethics of his chosen profession.

For some unexplicable reason, you don't understand that distinction - you blur the lines if the "victim" is a Christian and you seem to think that they should be able to apply their "morals" on any profession regardless. Then you obfuscate and flail around with Muslims. Well, I assume then it's ok for an athiest to preach in your church and if he gets fired, well, I guess we can chalk it up to religious discrimmination.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Keeton is undertaking a master’s degree in counselling, and irrational prejudice against homosexuals is extremely likely to impact on her ability to competently perform her job in the future. You simply can’t go into counselling if you hold beliefs that will cause you to see some of your clients as essentially sub-​​human. This falls into the same category as biology students refusing to accept evolution, or pharmacists refusing to dispense certain drugs — if your religious beliefs preclude you from learning and understanding the course material or doing your job, then you need to study another subject or find another job. Simple as that.

 

[Coyote]

I wonder how Ms. Keeton would counsel her clients in regards to shrimp.

Eating shellfish, after all, is a biblican abomination.

 

[Coyote]

Keeton is undertaking a master’s degree in counselling, and irrational prejudice against homosexuals is extremely likely to impact on her ability to competently perform her job in the future. You simply can’t go into counselling if you hold beliefs that will cause you to see some of your clients as essentially sub-​​human. This falls into the same category as biology students refusing to accept evolution, or pharmacists refusing to dispense certain drugs — if your religious beliefs preclude you from learning and understanding the course material or doing your job, then you need to study another subject or find another job. Simple as that.

Exactly. That is what I fail to understand. My beliefs preclude me from certain careers. I do not expect those professions to change their entire system to accommodate me, yet that is exactly what this faux-discrimmination suit is about.

 

[dilloduck]

She should have kept her mouth shut like everyone in class who will carry their personal biases and bigotry along with them into their profession.

 

[Sky Dancer]

She should have kept her mouth shut like everyone in class who will carry their personal biases and bigotry along with them into their profession.

She has no one to blame but herself.

No one’s asking her to alter her beliefs. She just has to keep them to herself if she’s counseling a student. Just like Creationists could theoretically get jobs as public school science teachers as long as they taught evolution properly and didn’t bring up their faith.
Just like Christians could get jobs as pharmacists as long as they didn’t prevent a woman from obtaining her birth control. If she can’t help but evangelize, she’s in the wrong line of work. She’s basically admitting she can’t counsel an atheist or Muslim or Hindu or gay or transgendered student properly. Keeton doesn't have the emotional maturity to be an accredited counselor. This isn't about her being a Christian. It's about her being a religious fanatic and wanting to impose Christian morality on ALL people. If she’s really desperate, then she can go to a Christian college and work at a Christian school.

 

[Coyote]

Oh I am perfectly honest about this. You are the one that is being dishonest.

The honest thing, The Light, is to admit you want the school to redesign its cirriculum. What attracts you to this lady's cause is that she shares a belief with you -- homophobia -- and claims a similar basis for it -- christianity. You wouldn't give two hoots about her "freedom of religion" if she didn't.

You know that is a lie.

Are you saying then you don't want the school to redesign it's curricula? If so, then I fail to see how you can argue on behalf of Ms. Keeton remaining in the program yet not being absolved from having to meet it's stated professional standards.

The HONEST thing, Madeline, is to admit you hate Christians and you will do anything in your power to silence them, but instead you choose to go about silencing them via stealth by using a message of tolerance while employing any chance you can to bash them.

Where has Madeline bashed, silenced or expressed hatred of Christians?

Your Christianphobia has you so rabid that you can fight for Muslims to place a mosque next to the site where they murdered thousands of people and destroyed thousands upon thousands of families, yet you bash a innocent girl who has no intentions to harm anyone.

What does one have to do with the other - two very seperate issues here, but that's ok. I understand that you are incapable of religious debate without resorting to dishonestly bashing the Muslim faith in order to support Christians. I find it quite easy to find good in both, if you open your eyes.

 

[Kalam]

Oh... wow. German Jews circa 1940 had it easy compared to these persecuted Christians in Christian-majority America.

So, being in a majority makes it fair game for bashing?

I don't recall saying that. I was simply pointing out how silly I think the OP's premise is. If being held to the same standards as everyone else (in this case, those set by the APA) is the worst that Christians here have to worry about, I'd hardly say that they face intolerance.

 

[Newby]

Actually, Madeline, I think the LIGHT wants the US to become a Christian theocracy.

That's bullshit and completely dishonest. I would have expected better than that from you, very disappointing.

Read his posts.

I have read every one of them, and not one has said anything about a theocracy or forcing his views on anyone. He defends and supports his beliefs, just as you do, and just as he has every right to do. That's a far cry from what your accusations imply.

 

[Father Time]

Oh I am perfectly honest about this. You are the one that is being dishonest.

The honest thing, The Light, is to admit you want the school to redesign its cirriculum. What attracts you to this lady's cause is that she shares a belief with you -- homophobia -- and claims a similar basis for it -- christianity. You wouldn't give two hoots about her "freedom of religion" if she didn't.

You know that is a lie.

The HONEST thing, Madeline, is to admit you hate Christians and you will do anything in your power to silence them,

Persecution complex?

 

[Newby]

The counseling program abides by both the ACA and the APA guidelines. Ms Keeton's own words tell the true story.

She said she could not affirm a gay or lesbian's lifestyle. A client does not go to see a counselor to be condemned as wrong for who he or she happens to love.

Perhaps she would neither affirm, nor condemn. As a professional, according to evidence you have posted, the APA does not consider it a disorder, therefore she would not be required to 'treat' it at all. It's a moot point. Neither has she ever said she would push her views or opinions on anyone while counseling, that's something that's been made up throughout this entire thread and is based on dishonesty. At least be honest and admit that you are making assumptions about what she would or would not do, because that's exactly what you are doing.

Actually Keeton has stated that she would not affirm her clients lifestyle. She has stated that Christian morals are applicable to ALL.

She has stated homosexuality is identity confusion. It is Keeton who is confused. She doesn't know whether she wants to be a professonal counselor or a Christian minister.

She stated her beliefs, not what she would do while professionally counseling anyone. Your problem is that you have to muddy the waters with innuendo in order for there to even be a point to your arguments of condmenation against her.