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To those who oppose the Keystone XL pipeline for environmental reasons

TemplarKormac

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Liberals worry about the environment being harmed by this pipeline, and won't even take the State Department's word that the project would have little to no impact on the environment. Well, let me see if I can't ram some reality through some really thick heads.

This is from the final impact report which was issued in January 2014

On March 11, 2010, the NEB issued its Reasons for Decision granting Keystone’s application. The NEB’s Reasons for Decision included an Environmental Screening Report (ESR) that was prepared to meet the requirements of Canadian Environmental Assessment Act for the Canadian portion of the proposed pipeline. The ESR concluded that implementation of the proposed pipeline in Canada would not likely result in significant adverse environmental effects with incorporation of Keystone’s proposed measures to avoid or minimize impacts and with Keystone’s acceptance of the NEB’s regulatory requirements and recommended conditions attached to the ESR (see also Section 4.15.4.1, Canadian National Energy Board Environmental Analysis of the Proposed Project, for a listing of NEB’s conditions).

Chapter 1, Section 7, ENVIRONMENTAL REVIEW OF THE CANADIAN PORTION OF THE KEYSTONE 1.7
XL PROJECT, Final Supplemental Environmental Impact Statement

And this is Chapter 4, Section 16, or a list of all the potential impacts of the project...and what I see reading through it. is that there are negligible or limited impacts to the surrounding environment:

http://keystonepipeline-xl.state.gov/documents/organization/221192.pdf

Given these things, it would be reasonable to assume that the same circumstances would be true here in the United States. So, what other rationales are there for stopping this project? In the time it has taken to block this project, (over 5 years) the pipeline could already be close to completion.
 
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gipper

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But those top 1% Dem donors believe in the AGW hoax,which is purposely designed to empower and enrich them, so no go on keystone.
 
OP
TemplarKormac

TemplarKormac

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Apparently there are no sly remarks, personal insults, ifs, ands, or buts from the eco-liberal crowd. Color me green.
 

occupied

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If Big Oil were a person you would be on your knees eagerly unzipping their fly.
 

initforme

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I say build it. And if it leaks, the company pays a hefty fine. Anyone who disagrees is anti American. I can be built safely and be environmentally safe as well. I would assume any company building it would spend a lot of extra funds not needed to ensure the safety. The jobs however will be temporary. And not one drop of this oil should EVER be sold to the highest bidder. That should be illegal. That is our oil it should ALL stay here. If it doesn't, shut the company down.
 

occupied

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I say build it. And if it leaks, the company pays a hefty fine. Anyone who disagrees is anti American. I can be built safely and be environmentally safe as well. I would assume any company building it would spend a lot of extra funds not needed to ensure the safety. The jobs however will be temporary. And not one drop of this oil should EVER be sold to the highest bidder. That should be illegal. That is our oil it should ALL stay here. If it doesn't, shut the company down.
Fines never put a spill area back just like it was.
Fines are always endlessly litigated and usually reduced.
The oil legally must be sold on the open market.
The company is Canadian and we have little power over their activities, much less shutting them down.

This thing will eventually be built, the jobs it creates will end, the oil will end up in China, it will leak at some point, the company will get a slap on the wrist and plentiful political cover and there is nothing anyone can do to make it deliver the benefits promised. It's all part of living in a plutocracy.
 

Mr. H.

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I say build it. And if it leaks, the company pays a hefty fine. Anyone who disagrees is anti American. I can be built safely and be environmentally safe as well. I would assume any company building it would spend a lot of extra funds not needed to ensure the safety. The jobs however will be temporary. And not one drop of this oil should EVER be sold to the highest bidder. That should be illegal. That is our oil it should ALL stay here. If it doesn't, shut the company down.
Fines never put a spill area back just like it was.
Fines are always endlessly litigated and usually reduced.
The oil legally must be sold on the open market.
The company is Canadian and we have little power over their activities, much less shutting them down.

This thing will eventually be built, the jobs it creates will end, the oil will end up in China, it will leak at some point, the company will get a slap on the wrist and plentiful political cover and there is nothing anyone can do to make it deliver the benefits promised. It's all part of living in a plutocracy.
20 million tons of ag chemicals spread over 900 million acres year after year after year...

And you could give a flying fuck?

Get some perspective you dimwit. :slap:
 

occupied

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I say build it. And if it leaks, the company pays a hefty fine. Anyone who disagrees is anti American. I can be built safely and be environmentally safe as well. I would assume any company building it would spend a lot of extra funds not needed to ensure the safety. The jobs however will be temporary. And not one drop of this oil should EVER be sold to the highest bidder. That should be illegal. That is our oil it should ALL stay here. If it doesn't, shut the company down.
Fines never put a spill area back just like it was.
Fines are always endlessly litigated and usually reduced.
The oil legally must be sold on the open market.
The company is Canadian and we have little power over their activities, much less shutting them down.

This thing will eventually be built, the jobs it creates will end, the oil will end up in China, it will leak at some point, the company will get a slap on the wrist and plentiful political cover and there is nothing anyone can do to make it deliver the benefits promised. It's all part of living in a plutocracy.
20 million tons of ag chemicals spread over 900 million acres year after year after year...

And you could give a flying fuck?

Get some perspective you dimwit. :slap:
I actually don't care that much if it gets built or not, I am just tired of Republicans misrepresenting and overselling this thing as a grand vision of energy independence and employment. Republicans purposely made this a national political issue and so now they must face a lot more resistance than if they had left it a local issue and patiently waited for the legal system to work as intended. Classic case of overreach, overselling and miscalculation.
 

tinydancer

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I say build it. And if it leaks, the company pays a hefty fine. Anyone who disagrees is anti American. I can be built safely and be environmentally safe as well. I would assume any company building it would spend a lot of extra funds not needed to ensure the safety. The jobs however will be temporary. And not one drop of this oil should EVER be sold to the highest bidder. That should be illegal. That is our oil it should ALL stay here. If it doesn't, shut the company down.
Fines never put a spill area back just like it was.
Fines are always endlessly litigated and usually reduced.
The oil legally must be sold on the open market.
The company is Canadian and we have little power over their activities, much less shutting them down.

This thing will eventually be built, the jobs it creates will end, the oil will end up in China, it will leak at some point, the company will get a slap on the wrist and plentiful political cover and there is nothing anyone can do to make it deliver the benefits promised. It's all part of living in a plutocracy.

Keystone is built from Alberta to the Gulf passing all environmental requirements.
XL is just a secondary line. It's the Northern leg which will pick up crude from the Bakken fields in Montana and North Dakota and link up with the Keystone.

TransCanada is responsible for any spills from the Keystone.

Oil will end up in China will it eh? The old Canadians need the pipeline to the Gulf so they can ship to China routine? :lol: No offense but are you geographically retarded?

We have pipelines to the Pacific. This big blue thingy called an ocean off the coast of British Columbia. Direct route.

Keystone is only a pipeline connecting Canuck crude and domestic production with your refineries in the midwest and in the Gulf.

It's just a freaking pipeline.
 

BULLDOG

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I say build it. And if it leaks, the company pays a hefty fine. Anyone who disagrees is anti American. I can be built safely and be environmentally safe as well. I would assume any company building it would spend a lot of extra funds not needed to ensure the safety. The jobs however will be temporary. And not one drop of this oil should EVER be sold to the highest bidder. That should be illegal. That is our oil it should ALL stay here. If it doesn't, shut the company down.
It's all going to be sold over seas.
That's not ours, and it's not oil. It is diluted bitumen. Oil comes from wells. Bitumen is mined with heavy equipment just like coal and is then is diluted with carcinogens like benzene to make it fluid enough to flow through a pipe. It will ALL be sold on the world market, even though we will be able to compete for it on an equal basis with China or any other country. All we will get is the potential for an environmental disaster, and oil companies with a lot more profit. Of course that profit will mean nothing to us because the refineries are all free trade zones. No taxes for value added for refining are collected.
 

tinydancer

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Trans Canada like all canuck companies try to live up to extraordinary high standards when it comes to the environment.

Check out what they do with land reclamation.

"Looking out at his land, Charles Barber can hardly believe what he sees. Or, maybe more properly, what he doesn’t see.

”The ground doesn’t look any different than it did beforehand,” he remarks. Barber’s farm was located along the route of the first phase of the Keystone pipeline. In the planning stages, he worked with TransCanada officials, who recognized the importance of making sure that his land was returned to its original state.

Yankton-Reclamation-640.jpg


Environmental Performace: TransCanada is committed to minimizing its environmental impact along the proposed route

A personal story from a Keystone landowner on land reclamation Keystone XL Pipeline
 

tinydancer

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Here's what they actually do. It's pretty awesome.

Preserving Topsoil

As part of the process of developing a Construction Mitigation and Reclamation Plan, TransCanada collects data identifying soil type, physical characteristics, depth of topsoil, and land-use.

This information is used to establish the depth of topsoil stripping and the appropriate soil handling procedure for each parcel of land traversed by the pipeline.

The objective is to establish procedures to be employed to maintain the agricultural capability of the soil and avoid the potential for degradation of topsoil from mixing, compaction, rutting, or loss of organic matter.

To avoid soil mixing, topsoil is salvaged and stored separately from subsoil and other construction related activities.

After pipeline installation is complete, subsoil is replaced to the trench and disturbed right-of-way to re-establish the land’s natural contours.

Following this, the topsoil is also then returned across the disturbed right-of-way and the topsoil conservation activities are complete.

TransCanada has nearly 50,000 miles of pipelines running across the continent, and every one of these requires that we communicate openly and honestly with the stakeholders and landowners along our route

. When pipeline construction is complete, we work closely with environmental experts and landowners to restore their land back to its original state and productivity level.

We monitor environmental reclamation for years following construction, and our job isn’t done until landowners and regulatory agencies are satisfied.

- See more at: A personal story from a Keystone landowner on land reclamation Keystone XL Pipeline
 

BULLDOG

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I say build it. And if it leaks, the company pays a hefty fine. Anyone who disagrees is anti American. I can be built safely and be environmentally safe as well. I would assume any company building it would spend a lot of extra funds not needed to ensure the safety. The jobs however will be temporary. And not one drop of this oil should EVER be sold to the highest bidder. That should be illegal. That is our oil it should ALL stay here. If it doesn't, shut the company down.
Fines never put a spill area back just like it was.
Fines are always endlessly litigated and usually reduced.
The oil legally must be sold on the open market.
The company is Canadian and we have little power over their activities, much less shutting them down.

This thing will eventually be built, the jobs it creates will end, the oil will end up in China, it will leak at some point, the company will get a slap on the wrist and plentiful political cover and there is nothing anyone can do to make it deliver the benefits promised. It's all part of living in a plutocracy.

Keystone is built from Alberta to the Gulf passing all environmental requirements.
XL is just a secondary line. It's the Northern leg which will pick up crude from the Bakken fields in Montana and North Dakota and link up with the Keystone.

TransCanada is responsible for any spills from the Keystone.

Oil will end up in China will it eh? The old Canadians need the pipeline to the Gulf so they can ship to China routine? :lol: No offense but are you geographically retarded?

We have pipelines to the Pacific. This big blue thingy called an ocean off the coast of British Columbia. Direct route.

Keystone is only a pipeline connecting Canuck crude and domestic production with your refineries in the midwest and in the Gulf.

It's just a freaking pipeline.
No, you dumbass. The refineries will turn it into products which will be sold to China. Free trade zones make it much more profitable to sell it over seas than here. Surely you aren't that dumb are you?
 

tinydancer

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I say build it. And if it leaks, the company pays a hefty fine. Anyone who disagrees is anti American. I can be built safely and be environmentally safe as well. I would assume any company building it would spend a lot of extra funds not needed to ensure the safety. The jobs however will be temporary. And not one drop of this oil should EVER be sold to the highest bidder. That should be illegal. That is our oil it should ALL stay here. If it doesn't, shut the company down.
It's all going to be sold over seas.
That's not ours, and it's not oil. It is diluted bitumen. Oil comes from wells. Bitumen is mined with heavy equipment just like coal and is then is diluted with carcinogens like benzene to make it fluid enough to flow through a pipe. It will ALL be sold on the world market, even though we will be able to compete for it on an equal basis with China or any other country. All we will get is the potential for an environmental disaster, and oil companies with a lot more profit. Of course that profit will mean nothing to us because the refineries are all free trade zones. No taxes for value added for refining are collected.

Ok. Let's look at your lie that it will all be shipped overseas. The Keystone has been in full operation for over a year now.

Can you come up with the link that will show us how and when every drop of crude that was delivered by the Keystone and refined in the year 2014 was shipped abroad?

By your refineries. Because Keystone is just a pipeline to deliver crude.

They have no say where the refined product ends up. So I'm dying to see your information that proves that every drop of crude that was refined at the Gulf refineries was shipped overseas last year.

Give er'. Show us your data.
 

BULLDOG

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I say build it. And if it leaks, the company pays a hefty fine. Anyone who disagrees is anti American. I can be built safely and be environmentally safe as well. I would assume any company building it would spend a lot of extra funds not needed to ensure the safety. The jobs however will be temporary. And not one drop of this oil should EVER be sold to the highest bidder. That should be illegal. That is our oil it should ALL stay here. If it doesn't, shut the company down.
It's all going to be sold over seas.
That's not ours, and it's not oil. It is diluted bitumen. Oil comes from wells. Bitumen is mined with heavy equipment just like coal and is then is diluted with carcinogens like benzene to make it fluid enough to flow through a pipe. It will ALL be sold on the world market, even though we will be able to compete for it on an equal basis with China or any other country. All we will get is the potential for an environmental disaster, and oil companies with a lot more profit. Of course that profit will mean nothing to us because the refineries are all free trade zones. No taxes for value added for refining are collected.

Ok. Let's look at your lie that it will all be shipped overseas. The Keystone has been in full operation for over a year now.

Can you come up with the link that will show us how and when every drop of crude that was delivered by the Keystone and refined in the year 2014 was shipped abroad?

By your refineries. Because Keystone is just a pipeline to deliver crude.

They have no say where the refined product ends up. So I'm dying to see your information that proves that every drop of crude that was refined at the Gulf refineries was shipped overseas last year.

Give er'. Show us your data.

If it's already in production, why do they need approval?
 

tinydancer

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Oh and while your at it Warren Buffets rail line and other rail lines have been delivering crude to the refineries over the past few years to be refined.

So you better come up with the data that proves that every drop of crude that was refined after being delivered to the Gulf by rail was exported.

Thanks in advance. :) When you say ALL I want you to prove it.
 

tinydancer

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I say build it. And if it leaks, the company pays a hefty fine. Anyone who disagrees is anti American. I can be built safely and be environmentally safe as well. I would assume any company building it would spend a lot of extra funds not needed to ensure the safety. The jobs however will be temporary. And not one drop of this oil should EVER be sold to the highest bidder. That should be illegal. That is our oil it should ALL stay here. If it doesn't, shut the company down.
It's all going to be sold over seas.
That's not ours, and it's not oil. It is diluted bitumen. Oil comes from wells. Bitumen is mined with heavy equipment just like coal and is then is diluted with carcinogens like benzene to make it fluid enough to flow through a pipe. It will ALL be sold on the world market, even though we will be able to compete for it on an equal basis with China or any other country. All we will get is the potential for an environmental disaster, and oil companies with a lot more profit. Of course that profit will mean nothing to us because the refineries are all free trade zones. No taxes for value added for refining are collected.

Ok. Let's look at your lie that it will all be shipped overseas. The Keystone has been in full operation for over a year now.

Can you come up with the link that will show us how and when every drop of crude that was delivered by the Keystone and refined in the year 2014 was shipped abroad?

By your refineries. Because Keystone is just a pipeline to deliver crude.

They have no say where the refined product ends up. So I'm dying to see your information that proves that every drop of crude that was refined at the Gulf refineries was shipped overseas last year.

Give er'. Show us your data.

If it's already in production, why do they need approval?

XL is just a secondary northern leg. Nothing more.
 

tinydancer

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Let's start here.

Myth: Keystone XL is an export pipeline to China and other nations.
Fact: Keystone XL is not an export pipeline.

It is a supply line to U.S. Gulf Coast refineries — which have signed up to 20-year binding commercial contracts to receive oil through Keystone XL.

This much-needed oil will allow refineries to create products that we all rely on every day — gasoline for our vehicles, aviation fuels, and diesel fuels to help transport goods throughout the continent.

It makes absolutely no sense for companies to purchase cheaper Canadian crude, and then pay (again) to ship that product overseas, while continuing to import higher-priced oil from the Middle East and Venezuela.

- See more at: Myths addressed Exports Jobs Economic benefits and more Keystone XL Pipeline
 

tinydancer

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But a better myth buster comes from the US State Department. And the link I'll put up will also take you directly to the State Departments findings.

In fact, the State Department’s own Environmental Impact Statement addresses this directly:

  • Exports of Canadian crude are “unlikely to be economically justified for any significant durable trade given transport costs and market conditions.”

  • Once [Canadian crude] arrives at the Gulf Coast, Gulf Coast refiners have a significant competitive advantage in processing compared to foreign refiners who would have to incur additional transportation charges to have the crude oil delivered from the Gulf Coast to their location.

  • Gulf Coast refiners’ traditional sources of heavy crudes, particularly Mexico and Venezuela are declining and are expected to continue.

  • Both the EIA’s 2013 AEO and EnSys WORLD model indicate that this demand for heavy crude in the Gulf Coast refineries is likely to persist.

  • EnSys modeling shows no export of light or heavy crude carried on Keystone XL or any other pipeline into PADD 3 onward to overseas markets, confirming the barriers that PADD 3 heavy crude demand and transport costs.
The U.S. is an overwhelming net importer of crude oil. The International Energy Agency (IEA) and the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) have both forecast the U.S. will still need to import oil to meet its domestic demand for decades, despite growing oil production in the U.S. Canadian and U.S. production transported by pipeline will displace more expensive crude oils from less stable countries.

Myths addressed Exports Jobs Economic benefits and more Keystone XL Pipeline
 

BULLDOG

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I say build it. And if it leaks, the company pays a hefty fine. Anyone who disagrees is anti American. I can be built safely and be environmentally safe as well. I would assume any company building it would spend a lot of extra funds not needed to ensure the safety. The jobs however will be temporary. And not one drop of this oil should EVER be sold to the highest bidder. That should be illegal. That is our oil it should ALL stay here. If it doesn't, shut the company down.
It's all going to be sold over seas.
That's not ours, and it's not oil. It is diluted bitumen. Oil comes from wells. Bitumen is mined with heavy equipment just like coal and is then is diluted with carcinogens like benzene to make it fluid enough to flow through a pipe. It will ALL be sold on the world market, even though we will be able to compete for it on an equal basis with China or any other country. All we will get is the potential for an environmental disaster, and oil companies with a lot more profit. Of course that profit will mean nothing to us because the refineries are all free trade zones. No taxes for value added for refining are collected.

Ok. Let's look at your lie that it will all be shipped overseas. The Keystone has been in full operation for over a year now.

Can you come up with the link that will show us how and when every drop of crude that was delivered by the Keystone and refined in the year 2014 was shipped abroad?

By your refineries. Because Keystone is just a pipeline to deliver crude.

They have no say where the refined product ends up. So I'm dying to see your information that proves that every drop of crude that was refined at the Gulf refineries was shipped overseas last year.

Give er'. Show us your data.

If it's already in production, why do they need approval?

XL is just a secondary northern leg. Nothing more.

Ok, The secondary northern leg that goes from Canada to Cushing Oklahoma. The Cushing to Port Arthur leg has been completed, and is in use. My brother worked on it for a few months until it was finished. Again, I ask, if it is already complete, why do they need approval? The answer is because they want a cross border line to import diluted Bitumen from Canada. I know some of the Bitumen is already being delivered by other means, but not near the volume the XL is designed to carry. Oil from Montana or North Dakota is not an issue, for a couple of reasons. First, it is crude oil, and not diluted Bitumen, next, because oil produced in the US is not subject to the tax giveaways permitted by free trade zones. I've explained some of the advantages of those zones several times, so I won't go into it again, other than to reiterate that Canadian imports that are refined here and then exported are not subject to the taxes on increased value that is gained by refining. In simplest terms, exporting anything refined from Canadian feed stock gives lots more profit than selling it here.
 

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