flacaltenn
I’m going to try to start fresh because the conversation did really go off in all sorts of directions as well as off the rails (even to whether minorities should get government funds!). I’m going to try and look at this logically and make my points and put down how I see the conversation.
First – the OP: Time to Declare War on Islam
Not terrorists, not even religious extremists but Islam. The entire religion, every man, woman and child, from the most liberal to the most extreme. So that is are starting point – a blanket assertion that brooks no contradictions and takes no hostages. The OP overshadows the entire conversation.
Second…how did it get into the conversation? I thought someone else had brought it up, but you are right – I did. But not intended as a diversion because it goes hand in hand with such things as honor killing (and the post I brought it up in, #421 was in response to you bringing up honor killings as examples of abusing women which followed from talking about misogynistic cultures. You asked how we got on to “women’s issues” and I think that was a natural segueing of the conversation – cultures, human rights, violence – that the OP inspired. Human rights – specifically that of women, homosexual and ethnic or religious minorities are frequently brought up as a barometer of a culture’s evolution. The biggest criticisms of Islam, as a religion and of many Muslim-majority cultures involve those, especially women’s rights.
So why do acid attacks matter and what relevance do they have on “sick cultures”? I disagree with you on the assertion that the only relevance is “availability of the weapon”. Acid attacks are not just any weapon. They destroy a woman – her life, her looks, her future prospects, any potential for a marriage in those cultures. They are not only horribly disfiguring, they are debilitating and leave her forever ruined. They don’t just destroy her face, they destroy her future and make her worthless in her community and may often leave her wishing for death. And acid is used precisely because of it’s horrific damage. A knife attack doesn’t do that. Beating her up doesn’t do that. Shooting her doesn’t do that. So what kind of sick culture does that to a woman? Where a man goes out and gets acid specifically for that purpose? It is very much a measure of the sickness of the culture.
Third…honor killings. Laws are only as good as the will and means to enforce them. You made a blanket statement that in India that all family murders are prosecuted but that isn’t actually true. I linked to an article that indicates in rural villages, these crimes are handled by the village councils, who are just as likely to judge that the victim as deserving of being killed if they feel she acted dishonerably and they are not charged with murder.
You dismissed my one source, so I’ll offer some others (and if you dismiss these, then please tell me what sort of source you’ll find acceptable).
India: Prosecute Rampant ‘Honor’ Killings
This is a 2010 article, so things could have changed in 6 years. However, it notes the same things as my other source did – namely, accurate statistics on honor killing are difficult to come due to differing definitions of what is honor killing and a tendancy to hide honor killing as something else such as suicide. I’m sure that applies to countries other than India as well.
From the article:
There are no official figures on "honor" killings because they often go unreported or are passed off as suicide or natural deaths by the family members involved. However, a recent independent study found that at least 900 such murders occur every year in Haryana, Punjab, and Uttar Pradesh states alone. There are no estimates of other injuries, unlawful confinement, or forced marriages suffered by women and girls, or by couples, in the name of "honor."
It notes that at least 900 such murders occur every year. That’s a lot. It’s not much different than what my first source said which is not surprising since I think my first article sourced this one for its claims.
Here is another source which talks about honor killing and laws in a number of countries:
Violence against woman - Issue of Honor killing
This article points out the weakness’ and lack of enforcement in honor killing laws (which are nothing more than recognizing honor killing as murder) including Pakistan, which actually doesn’t make it “ok” by apology but by paying compensation (though, since the culprits are usually the family, that is meaningless). That is still not enough – it should be treated like any other murder. But the problem with any of these laws though is that they are only as good as the will to enforce them.
This article also makes the following statement (one caveate – this is 2002, and things might have changed since then) – but it’s noteworthy the number of countries around the world that allow for an “honor defense” when it comes to murdering women (which implies that it is “sanctioned” by the state using your terminology):
Honor killing in national legal codes
According to the report of the Special Rapporteur submitted to the 58th session of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights (2002) concerning cultural practices in the family that reflect violence against women:
The Special Rapporteur indicated that there had been contradictory decisions with regard to the honor defence in Brazil, and that legislative provisions allowing for partial or complete defence in that context could be found in the penal codes of Argentina, Bangladesh, Ecuador, Egypt, Guatemala, Iran, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Peru, Syria, Turkey, Venezuela and the Palestinian National Authority.
From another article, concerning India, the author makes the following point:
Debate about honor killings resurfaces in India | Asia | DW.COM | 19.05.2010
The age-old practice of honour killing thrives because it is approved of in many parts of the country. But it also thrives because of the reluctance of the police and courts to intervene and the government to understand the seriousness of this issue.
If a state is unwilling or disinclined to prosecute honor killings – then what good are laws? Is there a significant difference in regards to honor killing, between the culture of India, where this is occurring and the culture of Pakistan or Arab countries, where it also occurs?
You make a statement that I find really odd. You call Saudi Arabia “the most advanced Arab Muslim country”. Saudi Arabia has never been a country I would call “advanced”. It has one of the most conservative religious societies in the Muslim world. Women are heavily restricted in freedom of movement, ability to act independently, even drive. Changes are occurring, very very slowly. I would not ever call it “advanced”.
You also dismiss what I said about rural vs. urban populations saying it’s systemic throughout the whole culture. Again, I disagree.
First – educational levels. Education, especially for women, is probably the single most important driver of liberal values. In developing countries - educational levels are far higher in urban areas than in rural areas and the effects of that can be seen in voting patterns, political initiatives, human rights. I’ll give two examples.
Forced child marriages in Yemen.
The Painful Death of a Yemen Child Bride A huge problem, in Yemen where modern values clash with religious and tribal customs. A story of a child brides death on her wedding night angered Yemeni’s enough that they pushed for new laws against such marriages. The push came from urban areas and was met with heavy resistance from rural villages where tribal customs are strong. Not sure if they succeeded and I suspect even if they did, enforcement would be spotty.
Iranian elections. The last election was the first time more liberal candidates made a strong showing (liberal in relation to the normal run of Cleric-vetted candidates). Most of their support came from urban areas. Rural areas were still pretty staunchly conservative.
When you are talking about cultures, there are differences even within the same culture.
I've got my own list of injustices that rile me. The largest of which is that the G8 have NEVER given anything but lip service to ending SLAVERY in our lifetimes. I'm no cultural Imperialist, and I am NOT a global crusader. My PRIMARY concern is that we do not IMPORT these sick cultural practices into OUR country or into our Western Allies. But SLAVERY is a clear bright line and should guide ALL of our International Relations.
SO -- when we finally get back to the topic of the THREAT of importing this cancer -- you devote 2 sentences to acknowledge that you are following the MASSIVE outbreak of FOCUSED inspiration for the shit storm of death and violence that extremist Muslim Terrorism is bringing to the West. Can't seem to keep you on that issue tho.
Ok. Let’s talk about this threat – what you call a massive outbreak. How much is fear and how much is fear mongering? Fear is justified, especially when the threat is seemingly impossible to predict and leaves a huge swath of destruction. Yet, we, as a nation, must be doing something right. We have many successful and flourishing immigrant communities from the same countries you refer to as having “sick cultures”.
We aren’t Europe. Our history, our culture, our immigrant experience is completely different. Our immigrants assimilate well, are largely successful and employed. Oh I’m sure someone is going to bring up “well what about xxxxx terrorist” but in terms of overall numbers I think we are very successful with immigrants and have a long history to show that. We have Somali’s, Lebonese, Syrians, Iraqi’s, Afghanis, Palestinians, etc etc. We must be doing something right. But now, suddenly, a massive tidal wave of fear is rolling over us and its target is nebulous. We aren’t taking in a huge number of refugees and those refugees are heavily vetted to begin with. Even proposed expansions of that number are still very small.
One recent Large Story was the prosecution of 5 Somali immigrants who tried to travel Syria and join the fighting. The Small Story, that was entirely ignored was that their disapearance was reported to authorities by the Somali immigrant community and their families who were concerned.
Unfortunately, I’m winding down…I spent too much time on the beginning of this and to little time on the end so I’ll try to say more later. But I’ll end with this article you posted as an example:
-------------------
Knifing a mother and kids at a quiet French resort YESTERDAY -- with the Muslim's wife and kids watching the carnage. Motivation --
Mother and three daughters are STABBED in French holiday resort
A mother and her three daughters were reportedly stabbed while on holiday in France because they were 'scantily dressed'.
A knifeman attacked the woman and her three daughters, aged eight, 12, and 14, in the village of Garde-Colombe near Laragne-Monteglin, in south-east France, at around 10.30 this morning.
The attacker, named locally as Moroccan-born Mohamed Boufarkouch, was later arrested on suspicion of attempted murder and remains in police custody.
Local reports suggest the Boufarkouch attacked the victims because they were 'scantily dressed'. The victims are believed to have been wearing shorts and t-shirts at the time.
Jean-Marc Duprat, a deputy mayor for the nearby town, said the attacker was upset because the victims were wearing shorts and t-shirts.
French TV channel TF1 said he 'may have acted out of religious motives'.
A small folding knife with a blade measuring from 8 to 10 centimeters was found at the scene.
Boufarkouch, who is now in custody, has been known to police for at least 15 years. He reportedly fled after the attack, leaving behind his family and his wife 'in tears'.
This article is the OP for another thread. In subsequent articles officials have denied the claim that the attacker was upset because of the victim’s “scanty dress”. That appears to have been made up. They also said they haven’t found any indication of a religious motive. They are looking into a claim that the man was schitzophrenic and had been off his meds for 6 months.
All of this makes me ask this: Why is it, when the perpetrator is muslim, all reason flies out the window. It can’t be mental illness. It has to be his religion. Yet here, it may very well be a psychotic state. But it can’t even be considered when it’s a muslim.
This is NOT a new kind of issue that we should just learn "to cope with". And we NEED to not make ALL of the mistakes that our Euro buds have made. So you need to understand WHY people start threads like this. And until you DO --- you are not gonna be able to talk them down from OVER-reacting.
It's DAILY outrages of senseless violence and mayhem. It CAN NOT be ignored. There is no "fairness violation" here. It's out of proportion to all sense of decency and justice.
So how do you deal with the incredible degree of hatred that is spewed? Ignore it? I don’t know. I’m tired though, it’s really late and I’m not at my best but I'm trying very hard to stay civil, rational and not yell
) 
-- when just a bit of "arbitration" on the fears and angst would do. 
... 
