Time to attack iran

Is this a joke? Please list for us the "good things" hamas has "done" for the people of Gaza?

sorry for just picking this again, but i am too lazy for the rest and you were answering another poster anyway.

here is an article about hamas:

Radical Welfare in the Gaza Strip: Uncle Hamas Cares for Palestinians - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

..
At first the wheelchair-bound Yassin, who founded Hamas in 1987 and was killed in a targeted Israeli missile attack in 2004, managed the organization's funds from the living room of his modest house a few streets away. Today the center has evolved into a giant charitable institution in Gaza, operating 16 kindergartens, 30 Koran schools, and providing thousands of families with money, food and clothing. The center also pays child support for 5,000 orphans.
..
try to see it from the side of a poor Palestinian in Gaza.
 
At first the wheelchair-bound Yassin, who founded Hamas in 1987 and was killed in a targeted Israeli missile attack in 2004, managed the organization's funds from the living room of his modest house a few streets away. Today the center has evolved into a giant charitable institution in Gaza, operating 16 kindergartens, 30 Koran schools, and providing thousands of families with money, food and clothing. The center also pays child support for 5,000 orphans...
try to see it from the side of a poor Palestinian in Gaza.[/QUOTE]

I see alot of poor people around the world, who are actually trying to IMPROVE their society. It is fucking hilarious to see the contortions a far left luntatic will do to try and apologise for the worst garbage of the earth.

Hamas: initiated Cast lead, fired another rocket into israel today, prevented the wounded in January from being evacuated to increase the casualty totals, builds religious schools extolling more hatred of jews, is a proxy army of iran whose sole existence is to perpetuate the conflict, regularly murders pals without trial whom it accuses of being israeli spies, regularly executes without trial fatah members, has taken power via elections almost 4 years ago - and plans to retain power indefinitely, has built little if any infrastructure like sewers of electrical systems in gaza, etc, etc.

This is not a functioning government, it is a terrorists group pretending to be one...
 
rhodescholar: Please list for us the "good things" hamas has "done" for the people of Gaza?

l.k.eder: here is information about good things hamas has done for the people of gaza.

rhodescholar: It is fucking hilarious to see the contortions a far left luntatic will do to try and apologise for the worst garbage of the earth.


l.k.eder: you are welcome.
 
Regardless of what Wilson tried to do in regards to the Treaty of Versailles his putting us in WW1 set the stage for the Treaty of Versailles. Had we maintained our neutrality they couldn't have forced the Treaty of Versailles on Germany.

and the US and West cannot allow iran to control the middle east.
Why not?

It is in Iran's back yard and not the West

We need to leave Iran alone

Leaving Iran alone is not necessarily an option, but neither is using military force at this time.
Those demanding we force immediate regime change in Iran forget their close ties to China and Russia, plus their stepchildren Hezbollah and Hamas. Any attack by Israel or the US must be a last resort, not a first or even third one. Otherwise we risk a wider conflict involving two powers with whom we have ambiguous relationships and are both nuclear and heavily invested in our national economy.
If Israel acts alone, it must be prepared to not only piss off its Arab neighbors by invading their nations and airspace on the way to drop their bombs but also immediate retaliatory attacks from Lebanon and within its borders. They are not suicidal.
Talks with the curent regime are out of the question right now, of course, but the door must be left open for discussion at some future date should it become necessary. Remember, both the Saudis and the Egyptians are rumored to be considering their own nuclear weapons programs in response to a potential Iranian bomb. At some point, attempting to avert a general nuclear arms race in the greater ME may become more important than even AN's threats, thuggery and lack of legitimacy.
Ahmadinejad and his gang of merry thugs are a little busy at home right now. It's time to keep everything firmly on the table and leave it there in plain sight as long as possible until we see how the resistance unfolds.
 
Leaving Iran alone is not necessarily an option, but neither is using military force at this time.

Already, I can tell you are, like 4x smarter than most of the other posters in this thread...

Those demanding we force immediate regime change in Iran forget their close ties to China and Russia,

China holds $2 TR US, and is not going to just walk away from that debt, which it in essence would be, as the US would just tear up the paper notes and say "fuck you" were china to ever conduct a military operation against us, and Russia is a paper tiger. Russia's nukes are all its got at this time.

plus their stepchildren Hezbollah and Hamas.

A wider conflict, with the US/UK/France crunching iran, and israel pulverizing hezboolah and hamas, is inevitable - its a matter of when, not if.

Any attack by Israel or the US must be a last resort, not a first or even third one.

Diplomacy and carrots have been ongoing for almost 7 years - how much longer do you think they would make any sense to string out? When iran tests its first bomb, which is expected to occur in 6 months to one year - do you think it would make sense then?

If Israel acts alone, it must be prepared to not only piss off its Arab neighbors by invading their nations and airspace on the way to drop their bombs but also immediate retaliatory attacks from Lebanon and within its borders.

You must not be familiar with the intracacies of the middle east, the sunni arab states would pay for israel to attack iran, they would love it. They would see their biggest hegemonic threat crushed - and could then turn around and point a nasty finger at israel, the regimes would be throwing private parties, believe me, just as they did in '81.

They are not suicidal.

But they are also not going to sit around until iran's nukes become functional...

Talks with the curent regime are out of the question right now, of course, but the door must be left open for discussion at some future date should it become necessary.

I'm sorry but time's up. Any further delays only helps iran perfect their weapons, and that is not acceptable.

Remember, both the Saudis and the Egyptians are rumored to be considering their own nuclear weapons programs in response to a potential Iranian bomb.

That is why it is so important iran's program be destroyed, Egypt/SA would not feel compelled to undertake one if they were not so directly threatened by their arch enemy, iran.
 
Thank you for the kind words, it's always nice to disagree without being disagreeable.
I've started a couple of replies but we're getting some nasty weather here and my connection is getting dicey. I'll be back with a full response when things quiet down.
 
I'm still new at this, so if I mess up the quotes I apologize in advance. :redface:

Leaving Iran alone is not necessarily an option, but neither is using military force at this time.

Already, I can tell you are, like 4x smarter than most of the other posters in this thread...

Thank you, I appreciate the compliment.

Those demanding we force immediate regime change in Iran forget their close ties to China and Russia,

China holds $2 TR US, and is not going to just walk away from that debt, which it in essence would be, as the US would just tear up the paper notes and say "fuck you" were china to ever conduct a military operation against us, and Russia is a paper tiger. Russia's nukes are all its got at this time.

Sounds like nukes are a pretty big trump card, if we're that concerned about Iran getting its hands on them. Honestly I'm far more concerned about Russian reaction to any attack than to Iran's response. While they may not attack the US or Israel directly, they have the ability to wreak havoc in many places - think Georgia, for starters.
And while China needs us, we need them just as much. In the event of an attack on Iran by the US and/or its ally Israel, do you suppose $2 trillion in notes will keep China from sticking its nose in, or worse, loosening the leash on N Korea? Maybe or maybe not, it depends on how badly they need the Iranian oil at that given time and what other sources of revenue (markets) they have at hand.

A wider conflict, with the US/UK/France crunching iran, and israel pulverizing hezboolah and hamas, is inevitable - its a matter of when, not if.

Hardly inevitable, especially now. And you're forgetting a few details. Like the two shooting wars already on our hands and the Iranian allies and neighbors who could (would) be drawn into the fight - most of them nuclear themselves. Why is now the best time to start WWIII?

Diplomacy and carrots have been ongoing for almost 7 years - how much longer do you think they would make any sense to string out? When iran tests its first bomb, which is expected to occur in 6 months to one year - do you think it would make sense then?

Two points here.
First, there has been little to no diplomacy between the US and Iran for 30 years. There have been no diplomatic relations since the 1979 overthrow of the Shah. On the occasions we need to speak with the Iranians, contacts must be handled through the Swiss. As for the diplomacy that has occurred, remember the offers by M. Khatami in 2001-2002 for comprehensive dialogue leading to normalization fo relations? Those offers were rejected in the runup to the Iraq war. That rebuff arguably led directly to the loss of influence among Khatami and the reformists, paving the way for the selection of Ahmadinejad.
Second, depending on the source estimates for an Iranian nuclear device range from the six to 12 months you quote to no program being in place. The fact is, we simply do not know. Scary in itself, but not justification for the type of urgency you are espousing.

You must not be familiar with the intracacies of the middle east, the sunni arab states would pay for israel to attack iran, they would love it. They would see their biggest hegemonic threat crushed - and could then turn around and point a nasty finger at israel, the regimes would be throwing private parties, believe me, just as they did in '81.

You make two big assumptions here. The first is that the Arab nations are all alike. Nothing could be further from the truth. The second is that Arab leaders could privately rejoice while publicly assuaging the street with a little finger-wagging at an ascendant, nuclear Israel bombing a neighbor. The enemy of their enemy is not necessarily their friend, especially where Israel is concerned. And dictators have no goal more important than the security of their own positions - especially in the Arab nations, where many are battling religious extremist movements.

But they are also not going to sit around until iran's nukes become functional...

Talks with the curent regime are out of the question right now, of course, but the door must be left open for discussion at some future date should it become necessary.

I'm sorry but time's up. Any further delays only helps iran perfect their weapons, and that is not acceptable.

We do not know how much time we have, nor do we know what effect the shakeup in their nuclear program has had. Reminds me of the leadup to Iraq, where for whatever reason (and that's a different thread) the intelligence we were given on WMDs turned out to be false. We would do well to verify, not to mention see who emerges victorious in the current effort to overthrow the regime, before making or backing yet another "preemptive" invasion. Those who do not learn from history...

Remember, both the Saudis and the Egyptians are rumored to be considering their own nuclear weapons programs in response to a potential Iranian bomb.

That is why it is so important iran's program be destroyed, Egypt/SA would not feel compelled to undertake one if they were not so directly threatened by their arch enemy, iran.

Not all relationships are black and white, especially in the ME. Egypt and Saudi Arabia are hardly Iran's "arch-enemies", in Saudi's case they are partners within OPEC with a common interest economically and in Egypt's case they are frenemies within the Non-Aligned movement with common political interests. Do they trust each other? No, but then again neither do Iran and Russia. Doesn't mean they won't stick together in pursuit of other national interests while arming themselves to the teeth in case of the worst.
 
Last edited:
I'm still new at this, so if I mess up the quotes I apologize in advance. :redface:

Leaving Iran alone is not necessarily an option, but neither is using military force at this time.

Already, I can tell you are, like 4x smarter than most of the other posters in this thread...

Thank you, I appreciate the compliment.


believe me, it is not a compliment.

rhodescholar simply cannot handle dissent. support his opinion, he will thank you and call you brilliant.
challenge his opinion, he will mount one of the sewer-rats near him and rain insults on you.
 
I'm still new at this, so if I mess up the quotes I apologize in advance. :redface:

Already, I can tell you are, like 4x smarter than most of the other posters in this thread...

Thank you, I appreciate the compliment.


believe me, it is not a compliment.

rhodescholar simply cannot handle dissent. support his opinion, he will thank you and call you brilliant.
challenge his opinion, he will mount one of the sewer-rats near him and rain insults on you.

I see. Well, I'd better get out the umbrella 'cuz he is definitely not seeing the full picture here.
 
believe me, it is not a compliment.

rhodescholar simply cannot handle dissent. support his opinion, he will thank you and call you brilliant.
challenge his opinion, he will mount one of the sewer-rats near him and rain insults on you.

It is a compliment. There are many posters here who i disagree with, but we have had VERY civil, reasonable conversations - on may topics, and in many threads.

The problem with the trash like shogun, KK, sunni man etc, is that they are NOT even remotely interested in an intelligent conversation - only to insult/bait/troll.
 
You've never been insulted, baited, or trolled by me, despite committing all three offenses yourself.
 
Imagine this:
A country where it's illegal to teach evolution.
A country where women have few rights.
A country where the clergy picks the political candidates.
A country where it's mandatory to pledge to God when you say the pledge.
A country where religion is taught in public schools.
A country where, by constitution, the majority religion IS the "national religion".
A country where gays are not tolerated.

This is what the right wing wants in this country. This IS the GOP platform. You would expect the GOP would support this country.

There are those in this country that want God taken out of the government. They want a secular government. You would expect that the GOP would never support this. The GOP in this country wants MORE God in government, not less.

So, which country am I talking about? Iran of course. The GOP is too blind to realize that Iran is their vision of America come to life. What the Iranians have is what the GOP wants for this country. Instead of Koran, put Bible. Instead of Allah, put Jesus. Other than that, it's a match.
 
Imagine this:
A country where it's illegal to teach evolution.
A country where women have few rights.
A country where the clergy picks the political candidates.
A country where it's mandatory to pledge to God when you say the pledge.
A country where religion is taught in public schools.
A country where, by constitution, the majority religion IS the "national religion".
A country where gays are not tolerated.

Sounds like a GREAT country!!!

I wish America would become everything on you list :eusa_pray:
 
Imagine this:
A country where it's illegal to teach evolution.
A country where women have few rights.
A country where the clergy picks the political candidates.
A country where it's mandatory to pledge to God when you say the pledge.
A country where religion is taught in public schools.
A country where, by constitution, the majority religion IS the "national religion".
A country where gays are not tolerated.

...(snip)...

So, which country am I talking about? Iran of course. The GOP is too blind to realize that Iran is their vision of America come to life. What the Iranians have is what the GOP wants for this country. Instead of Koran, put Bible. Instead of Allah, put Jesus. Other than that, it's a match.

The right-wing religous-nationalist extremists do not make up the entirety of the GOP. They just scream really loud.

You also haven't been following events in Iran, have you? There's a revolution in progress there, in case you didn't notice. Things are gonna change (with any luck).
 
Imagine this:
A country where it's illegal to teach evolution.
A country where women have few rights.
A country where the clergy picks the political candidates.
A country where it's mandatory to pledge to God when you say the pledge.
A country where religion is taught in public schools.
A country where, by constitution, the majority religion IS the "national religion".
A country where gays are not tolerated.

...(snip)...

So, which country am I talking about? Iran of course. The GOP is too blind to realize that Iran is their vision of America come to life. What the Iranians have is what the GOP wants for this country. Instead of Koran, put Bible. Instead of Allah, put Jesus. Other than that, it's a match.
You also haven't been following events in Iran, have you? There's a revolution in progress there, in case you didn't notice. Things are gonna change (with any luck).
There is NO revolution going on in Iran.

Just a bunch of criminals who are protesting.

Most are in jail or going to jail where they belong.
 
Imagine this:
A country where it's illegal to teach evolution.
A country where women have few rights.
A country where the clergy picks the political candidates.
A country where it's mandatory to pledge to God when you say the pledge.
A country where religion is taught in public schools.
A country where, by constitution, the majority religion IS the "national religion".
A country where gays are not tolerated.

...(snip)...

So, which country am I talking about? Iran of course. The GOP is too blind to realize that Iran is their vision of America come to life. What the Iranians have is what the GOP wants for this country. Instead of Koran, put Bible. Instead of Allah, put Jesus. Other than that, it's a match.
You also haven't been following events in Iran, have you? There's a revolution in progress there, in case you didn't notice. Things are gonna change (with any luck).
There is NO revolution going on in Iran.

Just a bunch of criminals who are protesting.

Most are in jail or going to jail where they belong.

I see.

Never mind then, go ahead and bomb the shit out of them. We don't need those people with their fingers on the nuclear button.

:cuckoo:
 
Imagine this:
A country where it's illegal to teach evolution.
A country where women have few rights.
A country where the clergy picks the political candidates.
A country where it's mandatory to pledge to God when you say the pledge.
A country where religion is taught in public schools.
A country where, by constitution, the majority religion IS the "national religion".
A country where gays are not tolerated.

Sounds like a GREAT country!!!

I wish America would become everything on you list :eusa_pray:

Well what are you doing here? You belong over there where you can do some good. Maybe you could get a job with Ahmadinejad.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thank you, I appreciate the compliment.

Welcome. I just hope you are not a JBeuk puppet pretending to be someone else...

Sounds like nukes are a pretty big trump card, if we're that concerned about Iran getting its hands on them.

No doubt, they make a country invulnerable to an attack, like NK.

Honestly I'm far more concerned about Russian reaction to any attack than to Iran's response.

Why should you? Russia and Iraq were FAR closer than they are to iran, and iraq owed russia a ton of money - and even forgave most of the debt after the US invasion...

While they may not attack the US or Israel directly, they have the ability to wreak havoc in many places - think Georgia, for starters.

At a low level yes, just as they helped hezbollah in lebanon locate several israeli spy cells recently, so the russians can be a problem if you are not prepared for them, but they would not even consider something major...

And while China needs us, we need them just as much.

After china has poisoned our food, dog food, murdered our children with defective toys, and provided tainted plasterboard for our homes, the US public can be easily swayed to stop buying chinese-made product. The 2 countries have a close trading relationship, but there are other countries very eager to build factories to export their wares to us...

In the event of an attack on Iran by the US and/or its ally Israel, do you suppose $2 trillion in notes will keep China from sticking its nose in, or worse, loosening the leash on N Korea?

LOL, not if they want to be paid back, they won't.

Maybe or maybe not, it depends on how badly they need the Iranian oil at that given time and what other sources of revenue (markets) they have at hand.

You do not understand how treasurys work, China has ALREADY bought them, it isn't a question of whether they will buy them or not - they already have them in their central bank registry account.

Like the two shooting wars already on our hands and the Iranian allies and neighbors who could (would) be drawn into the fight - most of them nuclear themselves. Why is now the best time to start WWIII?

You must not have read the General's article, re-read it again. An iranian campaign would require the use of assets not currently deployed in quantity, namely the Navy and Air Force.

Two points here. First, there has been little to no diplomacy between the US and Iran for 30 years. There have been no diplomatic relations since the 1979 overthrow of the Shah.

There have been many, many attempts in prior administrations, particularly during Clinton's 2 terms, and he was humiliated by them more than once...

On the occasions we need to speak with the Iranians, contacts must be handled through the Swiss.

Not always..... ;)

As for the diplomacy that has occurred, remember the offers by M. Khatami in 2001-2002 for comprehensive dialogue leading to normalization fo relations? Those offers were rejected in the runup to the Iraq war. That rebuff arguably led directly to the loss of influence among Khatami and the reformists, paving the way for the selection of Ahmadinejad.

#1, they were not considered genuine at the time, and probably weren't, and cannot possibly be considered the reason why Khatami was no re-elected. #2, the iranians did not elect him again because he failed to accomplish the freedom-driven reforms they expected and desired.

Second, depending on the source estimates for an Iranian nuclear device range from the six to 12 months you quote to no program being in place. The fact is, we simply do not know. Scary in itself, but not justification for the type of urgency you are espousing.

They are blocking the inspections required by the IAEA, and wouldn't be unless they had something to hide.

You make two big assumptions here. The first is that the Arab nations are all alike. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I know that, having lived in a few for over 20 years...but all sunnis hate the shia, and that is a fact regardless of arab muslim nation.

The second is that Arab leaders could privately rejoice while publicly assuaging the street with a little finger-wagging at an ascendant, nuclear Israel bombing a neighbor. The enemy of their enemy is not necessarily their friend, especially where Israel is concerned. And dictators have no goal more important than the security of their own positions - especially in the Arab nations, where many are battling religious extremist movements.

If you remember in the 2006 israeli-hezbollah skirmish, SA and Egypt issued strong statements AGAINST hezbollah, and recenltly, Egypt broke up a hezbollah cell inside the sinai. These are the 2 most important arab nations, and both detest iran, and have poor relations with iran at best. Even if both changed leadership tomorrow, Egypt and SA would be enemies of iran, that would not change. Anyone claiming otherwise does not know the middle east.

We do not know how much time we have, nor do we know what effect the shakeup in their nuclear program has had. Reminds me of the leadup to Iraq, where for whatever reason (and that's a different thread) the intelligence we were given on WMDs turned out to be false.

There were reports by some 20 intelligence services that saddam had them, shit he'd already used them on the kurds, so it wasn't exactly a stretch...

We would do well to verify, not to mention see who emerges victorious in the current effort to overthrow the regime, before making or backing yet another "preemptive" invasion. Those who do not learn from history...

#1, since they are blocking inspections, and have spread their acknowledged program across the country, and deep underground in hardened facilities which leads one to believe that they are hiding aspects of the program that would not be wise. Second, again, we do not have the luxury of time to "wait out" and see if the opposition can depose the current regime.

Not all relationships are black and white, especially in the ME. Egypt and Saudi Arabia are hardly Iran's "arch-enemies",

LOL, uh yes they are, you need to learn more about the middle east my friend. Statements like this are telling... :eusa_whistle:

in Saudi's case they are partners within OPEC with a common interest economically and in Egypt's case they are frenemies within the Non-Aligned movement with common political interests. Do they trust each other? No, but then again neither do Iran and Russia. Doesn't mean they won't stick together in pursuit of other national interests while arming themselves to the teeth in case of the worst.

SA' and Egypt's programs are directly in response to iran's, in fact, SA and iran have minimal diplomatic relations. I think it was only a few months ago that when AN showed up there, that it was many years since ANY high-ranking iranian official has stepped foot on SA soil.

POLITICS: A Thaw in Egypt-Iran Relations? - IPS ipsnews.net

"The recent visit to the Egyptian capital by a high-level Iranian official has reignited speculation about the state of Egyptian-Iranian diplomatic relations, officially frozen since 1979. Ali Larijani, head of Iran's Supreme National Security Council, is the highest ranking Iranian official to visit Egypt in the last 27 years."

Things were looking a tiny bit better until the hez' terrorists were caught in the sinai, plotting against the Mubarak gov't...

Saudi Arabia-Iran Relations | IranTracker

"As an ally of the United States, Saudi Arabia’s relations with the Islamic Republic of Iran have been relatively strained since the Islamic Revolution in 1979. Despite common membership to international organizations such as OPEC and NAM—Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries and the Non-Aligned Movement—and similar economies based on oil resources, Saudi Arabia and Iran have often found themselves in economic and political competition. During the Iran-Iraq War 1980-1988, Saudi Arabia supported Saddam Hussein against Iran.[8] In recent years, relations have been particularly strained as Saudi Arabia has publicly questioned the peaceful nature of Iran’s nuclear enrichment program."
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom