Time for a New Declaration of Independence?

[Sky Dancer]

This whole discussion is a bunch of BULLSHIT!

The government is NOT the problem. The WEALTHY and the CORPORATIONS are the ones who rule over us AND our government.

If we want "government for and by the people" we have to break the grip that the wealthy have on our government.

The rich will always have unfair advantage. That's just the way it is.

 

[Richard-H]

Because of capitalism and freedom.

no. because of liberal ideals like emancipation, the great society and new deal. and because of supreme court justices who actually protected individual rights.

in fact the results of laissez faire capitalism was a huge part of the problem that needed correcting.

Indeed.

American would have been a far stronger nation today had an environmental impact study been required before building the intercontinental rail road, and anti-descrimination work laws been in effect for laborers..... I'll not even count the benefits that OSHA would have had in expanding the nation's industrial base.

Maybe if it was you that had to bare hand nitro-gylserin just to feed your family, you have a change in attitude.

 

[Richard-H]

This whole discussion is a bunch of BULLSHIT!

The government is NOT the problem. The WEALTHY and the CORPORATIONS are the ones who rule over us AND our government.

If we want "government for and by the people" we have to break the grip that the wealthy have on our government.

The rich will always have unfair advantage. That's just the way it is.

Yes, and Kings must rule over the people because they could never rule themselves.

 

[Samson]

no. because of liberal ideals like emancipation, the great society and new deal. and because of supreme court justices who actually protected individual rights.

in fact the results of laissez faire capitalism was a huge part of the problem that needed correcting.

Indeed.

American would have been a far stronger nation today had an environmental impact study been required before building the intercontinental rail road, and anti-descrimination work laws been in effect for laborers..... I'll not even count the benefits that OSHA would have had in expanding the nation's industrial base.

is it a terrible thing to balance the needs of business with conservation of our environment?

or heaven forbid, making sure workers don't lose hands, fingers, hearing or get cancer from workplace carcinogens.

the horror...

Sure, but don't expect it for FREE.

The only reason the USA can afford draconian regulations (e.g. you MUST wear a hardhat at a worksite, even if you are sitting in your truck), is because they were nonexistant for 300 years.

There WILL be a cost, and the cost will be those jobs lost forever to nations where people are quite happy to exchange starvation for the possiblilty of losing a hand.

 

[Richard-H]

Indeed.

American would have been a far stronger nation today had an environmental impact study been required before building the intercontinental rail road, and anti-descrimination work laws been in effect for laborers..... I'll not even count the benefits that OSHA would have had in expanding the nation's industrial base.

is it a terrible thing to balance the needs of business with conservation of our environment?

or heaven forbid, making sure workers don't lose hands, fingers, hearing or get cancer from workplace carcinogens.

the horror...

Sure, but don't expect it for FREE.

The only reason the USA can afford draconian regulations (e.g. you MUST wear a hardhat at a worksite, even if you are sitting in your truck), is because they were nonexistant for 300 years.

There WILL be a cost, and the cost will be those jobs lost forever to nations where people are quite happy to exchange starvation for the possiblilty of losing a hand.

Or we could have government for and by the people which would make laws that protect Americans from inequities in the global markets.

 

[Samson]

no. because of liberal ideals like emancipation, the great society and new deal. and because of supreme court justices who actually protected individual rights.

in fact the results of laissez faire capitalism was a huge part of the problem that needed correcting.

Indeed.

American would have been a far stronger nation today had an environmental impact study been required before building the intercontinental rail road, and anti-descrimination work laws been in effect for laborers..... I'll not even count the benefits that OSHA would have had in expanding the nation's industrial base.

Maybe if it was you that had to bare hand nitro-gylserin just to feed your family, you have a change in attitude.

Yeah I'm sure you're ancestors refused to work until a Daily Job Safety Analysis was signed at the goose-down plucking plant.

 

[Samson]

is it a terrible thing to balance the needs of business with conservation of our environment?

or heaven forbid, making sure workers don't lose hands, fingers, hearing or get cancer from workplace carcinogens.

the horror...

Sure, but don't expect it for FREE.

The only reason the USA can afford draconian regulations (e.g. you MUST wear a hardhat at a worksite, even if you are sitting in your truck), is because they were nonexistant for 300 years.

There WILL be a cost, and the cost will be those jobs lost forever to nations where people are quite happy to exchange starvation for the possiblilty of losing a hand.

Or we could have government for and by the people which would make laws that protect Americans from inequities in the global markets.

"laws that protect Americans from inequalities in the global markets"

You might not have noticed, but US law doesn't apply to China.

Its why its called "China."

Another nation.

Its own laws.



Am I going too fast?

 

[Richard-H]

Indeed.

American would have been a far stronger nation today had an environmental impact study been required before building the intercontinental rail road, and anti-descrimination work laws been in effect for laborers..... I'll not even count the benefits that OSHA would have had in expanding the nation's industrial base.

Maybe if it was you that had to bare hand nitro-gylserin just to feed your family, you have a change in attitude.

Yeah I'm sure you're ancestors refused to work until a Daily Job Safety Analysis was signed at the goose-down plucking plant.

First, I come from a long line of executives. Second, I'm a engineer that generally signs that 'Daily Job Safety Analysis' before anyone is allowed to work.

And yes, I believe that people have a right "to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness", which means freedom from economic oppression.

People have rights, but there is no inalienable right to do business. If you can't meet reasonable safety standards then you have no right to be in business.

 

[Richard-H]

Sure, but don't expect it for FREE.

The only reason the USA can afford draconian regulations (e.g. you MUST wear a hardhat at a worksite, even if you are sitting in your truck), is because they were nonexistant for 300 years.

There WILL be a cost, and the cost will be those jobs lost forever to nations where people are quite happy to exchange starvation for the possiblilty of losing a hand.

Or we could have government for and by the people which would make laws that protect Americans from inequities in the global markets.

"laws that protect Americans from inequalities in the global markets"

You might not have noticed, but US law doesn't apply to China.

Its why its called "China."

Another nation.

Its own laws.



Am I going too fast?

It's called 'protective tarriffs' and is as old as commerce itself.

Moron!

 

[Avatar4321]

This whole discussion is a bunch of BULLSHIT!

The government is NOT the problem. The WEALTHY and the CORPORATIONS are the ones who rule over us AND our government.

If we want "government for and by the people" we have to break the grip that the wealthy have on our government.

The rich will always have unfair advantage. That's just the way it is.

Yes, and Kings must rule over the people because they could never rule themselves.

Speak for yourself.

 

[American Horse]

we have more of a represenative domcracy than when George Washington was elected by Congress and the states appointed Senators, Women were not allowed to vote and slaves had not rights what so ever.

Most of what you described is exactly the problem (with the exception of the slavery bit). This country was never intended to be run by the Masses, but rather by an Informed and Educated electorate. While I would suggest that the definition of an Informed and Educated electrorate has changed slightly over time, I would say it's much closer to what it was at that time than what it is now.

The informed and educated electorate. Question: What does the word electorate mean to you? To me it means the people choose who will lead. You seem to be advocating that appointed leadership would be better than leaders being selected by the "masses". Interesting choice of word (masses) why do people who have zero respect for America and his fellow man always refer to the people as the masses? It's so insulting. You are lost forever. Over the edge my friend, this nation will never be a satisfying place for you to live. Too bad.

Ah, but the Anac would be in the ruling group, dontcha know? That would make it all better. He's made clear before how he feels about the "masses (aka T-party; am I wrong Anac?).

 

[Richard-H]

The rich will always have unfair advantage. That's just the way it is.

Yes, and Kings must rule over the people because they could never rule themselves.

Speak for yourself.

Uhmmm....that was ...'sarcasm'.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Actually, the "good old days" that the GOP wants to return us to is a version where the robber barons have control again, and the common worker is paid slave wages.

 

[rckirby]

So the great American experiment is dead? It failed? You trust professional politicians that have become a quasi king/dictator to have superior morals, values, ethics, and ideals to those of the people they govern?

Yes, it has failed and it is dead. In fact TODAY, July 3rd marks the 148th Anniversary of that death. It died on a small rise of land known as Cemetary Ridge in the town of Gettysburg, Pennsylvania when Union soldiers repulsed the Confederate attack which has come to be known as Pickett's Charge. In the decisive moments of that battle the fate of America hung in the balance, and with the Union victory the American Civil War was all but LOST for True Americans and the True America WAS LOST for all eternity more than likely. Pickett's Charge is the turning point in American history, and it turned out to be a turn for the WORST.

And I'm not even from a southern state.

 

[rckirby]

Actually, the "good old days" that the GOP wants to return us to is a version where the robber barons have control again, and the common worker is paid slave wages.

Oh Please.

If you can't see that both the D's and R's are both in bed with the 'robber barons' then you don't have a clue.....or just want your team to win. Sad.

 

[dblack]

If you can't see that both the D's and R's are both in bed with the 'robber barons' then you don't have a clue.....or just want your team to win. Sad.

C'mon. You're spoiling all the fun! We have to pretend our 'team' is the best and fight the evil enemy!

 

[Samson]

Or we could have government for and by the people which would make laws that protect Americans from inequities in the global markets.

"laws that protect Americans from inequalities in the global markets"

You might not have noticed, but US law doesn't apply to China.

Its why its called "China."

Another nation.

Its own laws.



Am I going too fast?

It's called 'protective tarriffs' and is as old as commerce itself.

Moron!

That is pure genius!!!

We could raise tarriffs on Chinese Imports.

Wonder why no one has thought of that before???



Maybe because then practically everything we buy would cost twice as much.

Duh.

 

[Foxfyre]

"laws that protect Americans from inequalities in the global markets"

You might not have noticed, but US law doesn't apply to China.

Its why its called "China."

Another nation.

Its own laws.



Am I going too fast?

It's called 'protective tarriffs' and is as old as commerce itself.

Moron!

That is pure genius!!!

We could raise tarriffs on Chinese Imports.

Wonder why no one has thought of that before???



Maybe because then practically everything we buy would cost twice as much.

Duh.

That and also we would have a tough time exporting anything. Do people really think our trading partners would not retaliate if we apply punative tariffs on them?

There was a time that U.S. business was as competitive as anybody in the world. We produced some of the best stuff in the world and could produce it at prices that people elsewhere could and would pay. Whole populations would have starved if it wasn't for the abundance of grain, corn, and other foodstuffs mass produced in the USA. A 'Made in the USA' label was coveted. Trade imbalance was not a problem for us.

So what happened? Well the federal government decided to meddle in work and product safety, wages, benefits, promoted unions that almost demanded inefficiency in production, and demanded affirmative action long after the original goals were achieved. It also has failed to curb illegal workers and has made it quite unattractive to work for a less motivated segment of society, and has adopted environmental and energy policies that only enviromental wackos and socialists could love. Mismanagement of the money supply is creating quick little booms followed by just as quick busts and the value of the dollar continues to erode.

All this contributes to a decline in quality and/or attractiveness of American products coupled with ever higher prices that makes our products even less desirable and has driven a huge chunk of our manufacturing base elsewhere.

If we are going to draft a new Declaration of Independence to drag an irresponsible government back on track, all this should be considered in the wording.

 

[Samson]

It's called 'protective tarriffs' and is as old as commerce itself.

Moron!

That is pure genius!!!

We could raise tarriffs on Chinese Imports.

Wonder why no one has thought of that before???



Maybe because then practically everything we buy would cost twice as much.

Duh.

That and also we would have a tough time exporting anything. Do people really think our trading partners would not retaliate if we apply punative tariffs on them?

,,,,,.

But.....but, we're really nice!!

Why would you even suspect another country would do such a thing?

 

[Foxfyre]

That is pure genius!!!

We could raise tarriffs on Chinese Imports.

Wonder why no one has thought of that before???



Maybe because then practically everything we buy would cost twice as much.

Duh.

That and also we would have a tough time exporting anything. Do people really think our trading partners would not retaliate if we apply punative tariffs on them?

,,,,,.

But.....but, we're really nice!!

Why would you even suspect another country would do such a thing?

Because I'm a mean spirited, hateful, greedy, and uncaring conservative. Didn't you get the memo?