Time for a New Declaration of Independence?

[Anachronism]

Everyone knows that the politicians have incredibly strong morals, values, ethics and ideals. Bill Clinton comes to mind. Another is Anthony Weiner. And the list goes on!

Are politicians not part of the American public, Too Tall? Assuming they are, why would I expect anything more from them than I do from the general public.

My intent is to have the US Constitution re-written to include the necessary language while REMOVING the ability to amend the document in the future.

 

[Too Tall]

Everyone knows that the politicians have incredibly strong morals, values, ethics and ideals. Bill Clinton comes to mind. Another is Anthony Weiner. And the list goes on!

Are politicians not part of the American public, Too Tall? Assuming they are, why would I anything more from them than I do from the general public.

My intent is to have the US Constitution re-written to include the necessary language while REMOVING the ability to amend the document in the future.

We are not that far apart my friend. I do know several politicians that are honorable men, but I suspect that the majority of them are not IMHO.

 

[Anachronism]

We are not that far apart my friend. I do know several politicians that are honorable men, but I suspect that the majority of them are not IMHO.

I cannot say that I am in your same position.... I have never met a politician that I would trust further than I can thrown them.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

I believe that at this time a Strong Central Government IS necessary. The American people do not have the courage to embrace the morals, values, ethics, and ideals which are needed to allow people to properly self-determine.

So the great American experiment is dead? It failed? You trust professional politicians that have become a quasi king/dictator to have superior morals, values, ethics, and ideals to those of the people they govern?

It died when we decided to lead the world by military force rather than example. One if the subtle points is that if you want to wage three wars at once, station troops across the entire world, and actively oppose those that disagree with you then you have to have the money to do that. This requires a central government strong enough to collect taxes and inspire confidence enough to secure loans. A coalition of 50 states could never pull that off, but a strong Federal government can.

So if you enjoy America's current level of power and influence overseas, then you support a string central government.

 

[Rambunctious]

The informed and educated electorate. Question: What does the word electorate mean to you? To me it means the people choose who will lead. You seem to be advocating that appointed leadership would be better than leaders being selected by the "masses". Interesting choice of word (masses) why do people who have zero respect for America and his fellow man always refer to the people as the masses? It's so insulting. You are lost forever. Over the edge my friend, this nation will never be a satisfying place for you to live. Too bad.

The word "electorate" refers to the individuals who are allowed to vote. It does not necessarily imply the full citizenry, but rather only those individuals who are allowed to vote. I'm not advocating an appointed leadership (except possibly for the US Senate). I am advocating for a reduction in the groups of people who are allowed to vote.

Yes, I am probably lost forever. As my screenname indicates, I am not a man of this day and age, and probably never will be. This is not the country it was even a century ago. I can't see my Great-Grandparents leaving Germany to come to the USA of 2011 like they did in 1910.

So you would like to see whom vote that can not ? Non citizens aren't part of the "citizenry"
and felons willfully gave up their right to vote when they committed the felony. Young Americans under 18 are simply not in tune enough to vote and are being instructed in other subjects that take precedent at their young age.
At first I was angry at your attitude towards this country, but now I feel sorry for you and I wonder just how much you have travelled outside of the United States of America. I've traveled to many foreign lands and I can tell you one thing. Even with all of it's faults, this country is the greatest most generous, productive and kind nation in the world. And you should feel very fortunate to be living here.

 

[Missourian]

I hate to sound so pessimistic on the eve of the anniversary of the birth of our nation, but I believe we are past the point of no return. The ship cannot change course with half the population rowing in opposite directions and the other half in a stupor.

The worst mistake we made as a young country was allowing the rise of a political class.

 

[Anachronism]

So you would like to see whom vote that can not ? Non citizens aren't part of the "citizenry" and felons willfully gave up their right to vote when they committed the felony. Young Americans under 18 are simply not in tune enough to vote and are being instructed in other subjects that take precedent at their young age.

First of all, I'd delete the 19th Amendment. Women were never intended to be involved in the political system. Then I would remove anyone from the voting rolls who does not have a high school diploma. Then I would institute a Poll Exam every year to ensure that every voter must pass with a grade of 75% or higher to prove they are informed on the candidates, offices and questions be allowed to voted on. THEN, we might get something similar to the Informed and Educated electorate the Founders envisioned.

At first I was angry at your attitude towards this country, but now I feel sorry for you and I wonder just how much you have travelled outside of the United States of America. I've traveled to many foreign lands and I can tell you one thing. Even with all of it's faults, this country is the greatest most generous, productive and kind nation in the world. And you should feel very fortunate to be living here.

Don't feel sorry for me at all. I haven't been outside of the country since my childhood (2 short trips to Canada); and I do not intend to change that until and unless I decide to leave the country permanently. Generosity and Kindness are two things that I don't worry about. If any middle eastern country allowed private gun ownership I'd have been gone from the US YEARS AGO.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

I hate to sound so pessimistic on the eve of the anniversary of the birth of our nation, but I believe we are past the point of no return. The ship cannot change course with half the population rowing in opposite directions and the other half in a stupor.

The worst mistake we made as a young country was allowing the rise of a political class.

It takes lawyers to write good laws. That made the rise of the political class inevitable.

I think we ended up screwed when we got into WWI. Wilson is one of the true villains of US history, and trying to pull the US into a world leadership when the population was clearly unready and unwilling pretty much screwed the whole globe.

I think what's keeping us screwed is our bizarre relationship with the Constitution. On one hand, we hold it up as a sacred writ, something the Founder's would have cringed to see. They wrote the document when the Articles failed, and when the Constitution faced problems like the Civil War or the Great Depression they'd have been the first ones in line to chuck it and start over. On the other hand we flat ignore it and make a lot of legal "interpretations" to let us do what the heck we want so we don't have to do the hard work of actually addressing the issues with the Constitution. In short we take the laziest way out.

 

[Foxfyre]

I hate to sound so pessimistic on the eve of the anniversary of the birth of our nation, but I believe we are past the point of no return. The ship cannot change course with half the population rowing in opposite directions and the other half in a stupor.

The worst mistake we made as a young country was allowing the rise of a political class.

We didn't intend to allow it. But it has happened over time, in tiny pieces taken out of our freedom and transferred to the federal government. And because each time it seemed to make little difference, we went along about our business and weren't paying attention as little chips became bigger chunks.

It was like adding a grain of salt to the stew. Nobody notices or cares. It makes no difference. But keep adding grain after grain and it begins to add some flavor that is rather pleasant. By the time it has become too much salt and spoils the stew it is too late to do anything about it.

We need to start remoing the salt from the stew, grain by grain as it accumulated. But it will take public servants and visionaries in Washington instead of the professional politicians we have in power now.

 

[Wry Catcher]

So the question is:

Do you agree with the strong majority that a free people govern themselves?

Or do you agree with the political class that a strong central government is necessary to govern the people?

I don't agree with either statement.

The failure of the Articles of Confederation resulted in our Constitution, a document which balanced a federal government with checks and balances to prevent the tyranny of a majority or an absolute ruler.

I support the representative democracy which exists and reject efforts by demagogues and radicals whose subjective opinions are often based on avarice, bigotry, a callous disregard for their fellow citizens and ignorance.

In the OP, the poll says 77% of the people don't believe we have a representative democracy.

They're wrong. We directly elect our representatives in the Senate and House of Representatives.

 

[snjmom]

the people would then form whatever society they wished to have--govern themselves

And so they have.

A strong central gov is a necessity to maintain our global competitiveness. Take a look at any country with a weak central gov. You will find that the rule of law collapses.

 

[Antiderivative]

So the question is:

Do you agree with the strong majority that a free people govern themselves?

Dude, you just were advocating for a cadre of government piss testers and calling me a troll for opposing your useless statist policies.

I don't take you seriously.

 

[Douger]

I hate to sound so pessimistic on the eve of the anniversary of the birth of our nation, but I believe we are past the point of no return. The ship cannot change course with half the population rowing in opposite directions and the other half in a stupor.

The worst mistake we made as a young country was allowing the rise of a political class.

You nailed it.

 

[Foxfyre]

I don't agree with either statement.

The failure of the Articles of Confederation resulted in our Constitution, a document which balanced a federal government with checks and balances to prevent the tyranny of a majority or an absolute ruler.

I support the representative democracy which exists and reject efforts by demagogues and radicals whose subjective opinions are often based on avarice, bigotry, a callous disregard for their fellow citizens and ignorance.

In the OP, the poll says 77% of the people don't believe we have a representative democracy.

They're wrong. We directly elect our representatives in the Senate and House of Representatives.

It doesn't matter who elects them if they thumb their noses at whomever elects them and do whatever they damn well please. When they do that we do not have a representative democracy. We elect a quasi totalitarian government that does not represent us at all and forces upon us what we did not send them to Washington to do.

 

[The T]

So the question is:

Do you agree with the strong majority that a free people govern themselves?

Or do you agree with the political class that a strong central government is necessary to govern the people?

The Former. Screw the Government, Screw the elitists. Word of warning...they had better be careful...very careful.

There is a line in the Declaration that reads as follows:

it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government ...

If we keep being pushed? WE will do just that.

 

[Foxfyre]

the people would then form whatever society they wished to have--govern themselves

And so they have.

A strong central gov is a necessity to maintain our global competitiveness. Take a look at any country with a weak central gov. You will find that the rule of law collapses.

We did not have a strong central government for the first 150 years of so of our republic. It worked pretty much as the Founders envisioned. The federal government looked to provide the common defense and secure our rights so that people would otherwise be free to live and pursue happiness as they chose to do. The federal goernment didn't otherwise meddle much in how the states organize, with what state and local laws would maintain order, or what the people would choose as legal or not legal, with how each state would educate its kids, how each state would look after its most needy citizens. And that produced the greatest, most free, best educated, most benevolent nation the world has ever known.

The more the federal government has seized power and become more dictatorial and authoritarian, however, even when well intentioned, the worse it has become.

 

[Sky Dancer]

You've got a romantic notion of history, Fox.

 

[Foxfyre]

You've got a romantic notion of history, Fox.

No dear. History was a major college focus, most especially mid Eighteenth and Nineteenth Century, and it has remained a passion my entire life. I don't make these comments in a vacuum and I back them up with quotations tied to the original documents.

Those who don't appreciate that critical part of our history try to ignore them or blow them off or accuse me of not knowing my history. I don't claim to be an expert, but I can pretty effectively back up my opinion for those intellectually honest enough to see it.

 

[Sky Dancer]

You've got a romantic notion of history, Fox.

No dear. History was a major college focus, most especially mid Eighteenth and Nineteenth Century, and it has remained a passion my entire life. I don't make these comments in a vacuum and I back them up with quotations tied to the original documents.

Those who don't appreciate that critical part of our history try to ignore them or blow them off or accuse me of not knowing my history. I don't claim to be an expert, but I can pretty effectively back up my opinion for those intellectually honest enough to see it.

You read a great deal more into my one sentence than I intended.

 

[Foxfyre]

You've got a romantic notion of history, Fox.

No dear. History was a major college focus, most especially mid Eighteenth and Nineteenth Century, and it has remained a passion my entire life. I don't make these comments in a vacuum and I back them up with quotations tied to the original documents.

Those who don't appreciate that critical part of our history try to ignore them or blow them off or accuse me of not knowing my history. I don't claim to be an expert, but I can pretty effectively back up my opinion for those intellectually honest enough to see it.

You read a great deal more into my one sentence than I intended.

I didn't read a thing into it other than you think I have a romantic notion of history. I can assure you my notions of history are anything but romantic.