Three years left to limit warming to 1.5C, leading scientists warn

[ReinyDays]

Heat radiates in all directions as it equilibrates. Waves mix surface waters with deeper waters. By your logic UV rays would only heat to the depth they penetrate and then rise. By your logic there would no thermal gradient below the depth of penetration.

Heat naturally travels from hotter objects or regions to colder ones. This is a fundamental principle of thermodynamics. Heat transfer occurs until the objects reach the same temperature, a state of thermal equilibrium. So not physics. Thermodynamics.

Right ... and the coldest region is outer space ... most of the energy surplus at the ocean surface is radiated towards space ... the rest is convected through the atmosphere ... plus evaporating water ...

The oceans remain in thermal inversion ...

Convection in the water column is completely inhibited ... even at 500 meters ...

 

[westwall]

I have.

Clearly not if you think simple wave action can nullify one of the basic principles.

 

[EMH]

The oceans are warming. They always warm during interglacial periods.

a dual falsehood, given that "interglacials" are completely disproved by ice cores, and hurricanes are not increasing, proving oceans are not warming.

You are a taxpayer funded Zionist Fascist faux skeptic LIAR and you are here to push "warming" on morons....

 

[westwall]

How do you explain the existence of a thermal gradient below the depth of UV penetration? Where did that heat come

a dual falsehood, given that "interglacials" are completely disproved by ice cores, and hurricanes are not increasing, proving oceans are not warming.

You are a taxpayer funded Zionist Fascist faux skeptic LIAR and you are here to push "warming" on morons....

No, they aren't. Furthermore you can drive down Hwy 395 in California and see plenty of terminal and lateral morraines from the glacial periods.

Here in the Sierra Nevada they have been well documented as to their occurrence time.

 

[ding]

Clearly not if you think simple wave action can nullify one of the basic principles.

Transfer and Storage of Heat in the Oceans | Center for Science Education

Why are seasonal temperature extremes milder near large bodies of water and more extreme further inland? It has to do with thermal inertia.

scied.ucar.edu

 

[ding]

a dual falsehood, given that "interglacials" are completely disproved by ice cores, and hurricanes are not increasing, proving oceans are not warming.

You are a taxpayer funded Zionist Fascist faux skeptic LIAR and you are here to push "warming" on morons....

You make opposition to AGW look bad.

 

[ding]

No, they aren't. Furthermore you can drive down Hwy 395 in California and see plenty of terminal and lateral morraines from the glacial periods.

Here in the Sierra Nevada they have been well documented as to their occurrence time.

Transfer and Storage of Heat in the Oceans | Center for Science Education

Why are seasonal temperature extremes milder near large bodies of water and more extreme further inland? It has to do with thermal inertia.

scied.ucar.edu

 

[westwall]

Transfer and Storage of Heat in the Oceans | Center for Science Education

Why are seasonal temperature extremes milder near large bodies of water and more extreme further inland? It has to do with thermal inertia.

scied.ucar.edu

Yeah, cute website, it leads off with factual inaccuracies.

 

[ReinyDays]

Yeah, cute website, it leads off with factual inaccuracies.

Not so much inaccurate, but a very childish way to present the materials ... Atmospheric Science is only interested in the top couple of hundred meters ... the rest has little effect on surface temperatures ...

It takes a long time to warm the ocean, it takes a long time to cool the ocean ... and this has a great moderating effect on climate change ...

 

[toobfreak]

Heat radiates in all directions as it equilibrates.

OK, I gotta jump in and say something. Yes, heat (tries to) radiate in all directions but that does not mean it penetrates or conducts equally in all directions. Deeper water is more dense, so not only would warmer water tend to float on top but because deeper water is more dense, its impedance profile to frequencies also changes. And should deeper water be warmed slightly, it immediately becomes less dense, more buoyant, so floats upward.

By your logic UV rays would only heat to the depth they penetrate and then rise.

I don't see UV heating much at all. For UV light to heat, it must first be scattered as UV light, then absorbed and converted to infrared.

By your logic there would no thermal gradient below the depth of penetration.

Wrong. Spectral penetration and thermal gradients are independent things; the latter based primary on the structure and organization of the ocean itself, based on water density, not light penetration.

Heat naturally travels from hotter objects or regions to colder ones. This is a fundamental principle of thermodynamics.

Unless that colder region offers some sort of thermal barrier. The surface of a shuttle ceramic tile maybe be thousands of degrees on its surface yet be hundreds of degrees below zero just below the surface.

Heat transfer occurs until the objects reach the same temperature,

Then ask yourself, the atmosphere of the Sun is millions of degrees hot. Why then is the surface of the Sun which is in contact with it a mere 10,000°F?

 

[ding]

Not so much inaccurate, but a very childish way to present the materials ... Atmospheric Science is only interested in the top couple of hundred meters ... the rest has little effect on surface temperatures ...

It takes a long time to warm the ocean, it takes a long time to cool the ocean ... and this has a great moderating effect on climate change ...

Snapshots of mean ocean temperature over the last 700 000 years using noble gases in the EPICA Dome C ice core

Abstract. Together with the latent heat stored in glacial ice sheets, the ocean heat uptake carries the lion's share of glacial–interglacial changes in the planetary heat content, but little direct information on the global mean ocean temperature (MOT) is available to constrain the ocean...

cp.copernicus.org

 

[ding]

OK, I gotta jump in and say something. Yes, heat (tries to) radiate in all directions but that does not mean it penetrates or conducts equally in all directions. Deeper water is more dense, so not only would warmer water tend to float on top but because deeper water is more dense, its impedance profile to frequencies also changes. And should deeper water be warmed slightly, it immediately becomes less dense, more buoyant, so floats upward.


I don't see UV heating much at all. For UV light to heat, it must first be scattered as UV light, then absorbed and converted to infrared.


Wrong. Spectral penetration and thermal gradients are independent things; the latter based primary on the structure and organization of the ocean itself, based on water density, not light penetration.


Unless that colder region offers some sort of thermal barrier. The surface of a shuttle ceramic tile maybe be thousands of degrees on its surface yet be hundreds of degrees below zero just below the surface.


Then ask yourself, the atmosphere of the Sun is millions of degrees hot. Why then is the surface of the Sun which is in contact with it a mere 10,000°F?

Ocean convection is a crucial process in the world's oceans, playing a significant role in
deep ocean circulation and global climate regulation. It is not a constant, uniform process, but rather occurs in specific areas and under particular conditions.
Here's a closer look at ocean convection:

• Mixed layer convection: This type of convection is ubiquitous across the global ocean and is crucial for regulating the exchange of heat, freshwater, and CO2 at the ocean surface. It's maintained by various processes including buoyancy-driven convection and other physical mechanisms like wind stress, Langmuir turbulence, internal waves, and more.
• Deep convection: Strong atmospheric forcing, particularly intense winter cooling and/or increased salinity (due to ice formation and brine rejection), drives dense surface waters to sink to great depths. This can reach thousands of meters deep in some regions.
• Open-ocean convection: This occurs in specific areas away from continental shelves where surface waters experience significant cooling. Notable locations include the Greenland and Labrador Seas in the North Atlantic, and the northwestern Mediterranean Sea.
• Polynya convection: Polynyas are areas of open water surrounded by sea ice in polar regions. Intense heat loss and brine rejection in these areas trigger strong convection, leading to the formation of very dense waters like Antarctic Bottom Water (AABW). Coastal polynyas are common around Antarctica, while offshore polynyas, such as the Weddell Sea polynya, are observed more sporadically.

Deep ocean convection is not uniformly distributed but concentrated in these specific regions where the necessary conditions of cooling and salinity increase are met. This process has several key impacts:

• Heat redistribution: Convection helps distribute heat from the equator towards the poles, playing a fundamental role in Earth's climate system.
• Ventilation of the deep ocean: It transports oxygen and other dissolved gases to the deep ocean, which is crucial for supporting deep-sea ecosystems.
• Carbon sequestration: Convection transports surface waters, which absorb atmospheric CO2, into the deep ocean, thereby removing carbon from the atmosphere for long periods. This plays a vital role in regulating the carbon cycle.
• Nutrient cycling: Deep waters are rich in nutrients, and upwelling processes, often linked to the large-scale circulation driven by convection, bring these nutrients to the surface, supporting marine ecosystems.

While significant strides have been made in understanding and observing ocean convection through field observations, numerical simulations, and laboratory experiments, challenges remain. For example, the precise timing and location of open-ocean convection can be difficult to predict. Furthermore, the effects of climate change on ocean convection are a subject of ongoing research, with potential implications for the future of Earth's climate and marine ecosystems.

 

[westwall]

Not so much inaccurate, but a very childish way to present the materials ... Atmospheric Science is only interested in the top couple of hundred meters ... the rest has little effect on surface temperatures ...

It takes a long time to warm the ocean, it takes a long time to cool the ocean ... and this has a great moderating effect on climate change ...

Correct. But the actual facts of that don't support the AGW narrative. Thus, they oversimplify and outright mislead.

Ding keeps harping on the "Sudden" change, ignoring all the time that the conditions for that "Sudden" change, took centuries to develop.

 

[ding]

Yeah, cute website, it leads off with factual inaccuracies.

In some regions of the ocean, particularly in winter, the surface buoyancy loss is strong enough to produce open-ocean convection that can penetrate through the surface layers into the abyssal ocean. Open-ocean convection mainly occurs in the North Atlantic Ocean, particularly in sub-polar regions where there can be intense, highly localized cooling of surface waters by the atmosphere in winter months. It can be noted that these locations, such as the Greenland Sea and Labrador Sea, have a generally higher sea-surface density than the rest of the global ocean (excepting the Southern Ocean)

https://www.mdpi.com/2311-5521/6/10/360#:~:text=In%20some%20regions%20of%20the,shown%20in%20Figure%201b.

 

[westwall]

In some regions of the ocean, particularly in winter, the surface buoyancy loss is strong enough to produce open-ocean convection that can penetrate through the surface layers into the abyssal ocean. Open-ocean convection mainly occurs in the North Atlantic Ocean, particularly in sub-polar regions where there can be intense, highly localized cooling of surface waters by the atmosphere in winter months. It can be noted that these locations, such as the Greenland Sea and Labrador Sea, have a generally higher sea-surface density than the rest of the global ocean (excepting the Southern Ocean)

https://www.mdpi.com/2311-5521/6/10/360#:~:text=In%20some%20regions%20of%20the,shown%20in%20Figure%201b.

You do realize that ALL of that paper is based on "improved theoretical thought" and computer models.

There's not one bit of empirical data in the entire presentation.

 

[ding]

You do realize that ALL of that paper is based on "improved theoretical thought" and computer models.

There's not one bit of empirical data in the entire presentation.

The concept of the ocean is warmer at the top because heat rises presumes the heat is coming from below.

The heat is coming from above and transferring to deeper depths. The heat is not rising. It’s not physics. It’s thermodynamics. It’s heat transfer.

Furthermore, ocean temperature has cycled up and down as the northern hemisphere glaciated and deglaciated.

 

[westwall]

The concept of the ocean is warmer at the top because heat rises presumes the heat is coming from below.

The heat is coming from above and transferring to deeper depths. The heat is not rising. It’s not physics. It’s thermodynamics. It’s heat transfer.

Furthermore, ocean temperature has cycled up and down as the northern hemisphere glaciated and deglaciated.

There is NO mechanism for that to happen. None. No matter how hard you try the simple fact is longwave IR STOPS less than a millimeter deep into the water.

Period.

No amount of wishful thinking, and furious arm waving is going to alter that simple fact.

With all of the wave energy you come up with, the heat will still never go deeper than half a meter.

Then it rises again and escapes to the atmosphere, so the foundation of AGW fails at its first test.

Simple physics.

 

[ding]

There is NO mechanism for that to happen. None. No matter how hard you try the simple fact is longwave IR STOPS less than a millimeter deep into the water.

Period.

No amount of wishful thinking, and furious arm waving is going to alter that simple fact.

With all of the wave energy you come up with, the heat will still never go deeper than half a meter.

Then it rises again and escapes to the atmosphere, so the foundation of AGW fails at its first test.

Simple physics.

The data shows the ocean temperatures have gone up and down as the sun shined just the same. When the northern hemisphere is glaciating, ocean temperatures cool. When the northern hemisphere is deglaciating, ocean temperatures warm.

The sun is not responsible for the climate changes of the last 3 million years.

 

[ding]

There is NO mechanism for that to happen. None. No matter how hard you try the simple fact is longwave IR STOPS less than a millimeter deep into the water.

Period.

No amount of wishful thinking, and furious arm waving is going to alter that simple fact.

With all of the wave energy you come up with, the heat will still never go deeper than half a meter.

Then it rises again and escapes to the atmosphere, so the foundation of AGW fails at its first test.

Simple physics.

Do you know how to read the oxygen isotope curve?

 

[ding]

There is NO mechanism for that to happen. None. No matter how hard you try the simple fact is longwave IR STOPS less than a millimeter deep into the water.

Period.

No amount of wishful thinking, and furious arm waving is going to alter that simple fact.

With all of the wave energy you come up with, the heat will still never go deeper than half a meter.

Then it rises again and escapes to the atmosphere, so the foundation of AGW fails at its first test.

Simple physics.

The mechanism is the sun heats the ocean from the top down.