CDZ Three unanswered yet interesting questions pertaining to life

[Asclepias]

Well I'm not arguing
We just don't know and people will lean one way or the other, and normally take the evidence that leans towards the way they WANT to to think more seriously.

It's always subjective and personal on some level.

From what I can see I have a very unique view. I believe someone (God for lack of a better word) created the universe and from that life was formed. If you look at the orderly nature of life and the systems that support it you can see someone with an engineering background created the universe.

 

[Bonzi]

Someone with far superior knowledge to us.
Whether that intelligence is obtainable (ever) or at any point in time is an unknown.

 

[sakinago]

Many folks conflate intelligence with narrative ego, the "I" that stars in the movie your imagination makes about yourself. Other species don't appear to have a narrative ego similar to ours and that difference is at the root of what most people think of as "intelligence," Equating the narrative ego with intelligence is an axiomatic assumption. It doesn't prove anything.

So when you put sunglasses that you can't see through on a chimp, so the chimp can't see, then you put those same sunglasses on yourself and the chimp still thinks you can see...that's some sort of unknown intelligence that we don't posses.

Seriously, dude, the chimp has a better grasp of the epistemological issues in defining intelligence than your post displays. Ask the chimp, I don't have time for this stuff.

Is intelligence a measurable quality is what I'm asking. According to you, it is not.

 

[Asclepias]

Many folks conflate intelligence with narrative ego, the "I" that stars in the movie your imagination makes about yourself. Other species don't appear to have a narrative ego similar to ours and that difference is at the root of what most people think of as "intelligence," Equating the narrative ego with intelligence is an axiomatic assumption. It doesn't prove anything.

So when you put sunglasses that you can't see through on a chimp, so the chimp can't see, then you put those same sunglasses on yourself and the chimp still thinks you can see...that's some sort of unknown intelligence that we don't posses.

Seriously, dude, the chimp has a better grasp of the epistemological issues in defining intelligence than your post displays. Ask the chimp, I don't have time for this stuff.

Is intelligence a measurable quality is what I'm asking. According to you, it is not.

The answer is always going to be subjective.

 

[Bonzi]

Who makes the "test" that measures it?
Are they not human?

 

[sakinago]

I get this might not necassarily belong in CDZ, but since I can't stand any of the other forums, this is where I'm posting it. I hope that this becomes a fun conversation

First question: How did chemicals from lifeless reactions, turn into life?

Second: How did the early simple, single cell prokaryotic forms of life that had reached their available energy threshold, jumped to a higher energy threshold and turn into a eukaryotic form. A much more complex cell, that becomes the building block for complex life.

Finally: How did the jump happen from standard animal intelligence to human consciousness? Sure there are some smart animals out there, but they do not hold a candle to human intelligence.

Right place, right time, right conditions.

See number 1

Fire.

There are animals out there that are smarter than humans. You are being a human chauvinist. One may say that animals are all smarter than humans. Humans are the only animals that mess up their environment intentionally.

A ridiculous thought. A bird will never get into a vehicle on vehicle accident, that does not make them smarter. Animals; outside of crows, Dolphins, some primates, and beavers, do not participate in manipulation of their surroundings to their advantage because they do not have the immense brain power, or energy to supply that brain power. Not out of altruism for Mother Earth. If what your saying is correct, zoology and behavioral psychology should not be considered sciences, since we have no way of measuring intelligence in any sort of way. So I'll ask again. Can we measure intelligence?

 

[sakinago]

Many folks conflate intelligence with narrative ego, the "I" that stars in the movie your imagination makes about yourself. Other species don't appear to have a narrative ego similar to ours and that difference is at the root of what most people think of as "intelligence," Equating the narrative ego with intelligence is an axiomatic assumption. It doesn't prove anything.

So when you put sunglasses that you can't see through on a chimp, so the chimp can't see, then you put those same sunglasses on yourself and the chimp still thinks you can see...that's some sort of unknown intelligence that we don't posses.

Seriously, dude, the chimp has a better grasp of the epistemological issues in defining intelligence than your post displays. Ask the chimp, I don't have time for this stuff.

Is intelligence a measurable quality is what I'm asking. According to you, it is not.

The answer is always going to be subjective.

If you disagree with my original 3rd question, you are in disagrement with the smartest evolutionary biologist. I did not make up these questions. There are some of the most debated among evolutionary biologists, but they all agree on the premise that there's a stark difference with intelligence among humans vs everything else

 

[Iceweasel]

That was answered numerous times.

I don't recall you answering that and I'm not going to go back and re read everything.

You said, "The difference is the theist and atheist have a belief by faith and the theist is honest, the atheist is a liar.

Maybe you can explain this again. I understand what you are trying to say. You're trying to say both theists and atheists are going off of faith. BUT, what I don't understand is why are theists honest and athiests are liars?

Do you mean theists admit they are going off faith? Are you suggesting that theists admit they don't know for sure god exists? Because they claim to KNOW god exists. That's not honest. It doesn't even dawn on them that Mary was a whore who cheated on her husband and not a virgin.

And as far as us atheists are concerned, we admit you can't know for sure either way. So if I'm not mistaken, that would make us atheists right and theists liars. Because most of them claim this god character visited their ancestors and they claim to believe it as a fact.

I explained it in toddler sized pieces. Your cognitive dissonance is preventing you from grasping what you don't already to believe.

You have no evidence of a secular cause.
You believe in a secular cause.
That is a declaration of faith, not science.

It's impossible to break it down any simpler. I suggest you find someone to walk you through it. Before you bong up for the morning.

Are you sure you know what cognitive dissonance means? Because the way I learned it, it means a person who on one hand doesn't believe a virgin can get pregnant, but then they've been brainwashed by a church to believe that mary was a virgin who gave birth. Anyone who believes the Mary story is experiencing Cognitive dissonance. Can you explain and give me an example of my cognitive dissonance? What are my two conflicting/contradictory thoughts?

LOL, you're pulling our leg, right? Right?

the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change.

A religious person who knows a woman can't get pregnant without getting fucked but also believes the Mary story is experiencing cognitive dissonance, no?

How am I experiencing it? Maybe I am and I just don't know it. You're doing a horrible job explaining yourself.

In fact its very hard to argue with a guy who doesn't claim to believe in God but then argues why there must be one. PFFT.

I do believe in God, you can't read.

 

[Iceweasel]

Random chance that life forms on its' own and not only survives but lives on to multiply and change into endless life forms with a drive for survival so intense it can be found in extremely inhospitable places? I can't muster up that level of faith.

What do you think? More importantly, why do you think this? Sounds to me you believe in a god because you can't imagine there isn't. Is that all you base your faith on? I base my faith on much more. Science. And my faith changes with the facts. If you give me one shred of evidence your god exists, maybe I'll join your faith.

Right, just like the guy I argued with long ago. He summed it up nicely and every discussion ends up like this. I believe in fairy tales and you believe in facts that haven't been discovered yet.

 

[Asclepias]

I get this might not necassarily belong in CDZ, but since I can't stand any of the other forums, this is where I'm posting it. I hope that this becomes a fun conversation

First question: How did chemicals from lifeless reactions, turn into life?

Second: How did the early simple, single cell prokaryotic forms of life that had reached their available energy threshold, jumped to a higher energy threshold and turn into a eukaryotic form. A much more complex cell, that becomes the building block for complex life.

Finally: How did the jump happen from standard animal intelligence to human consciousness? Sure there are some smart animals out there, but they do not hold a candle to human intelligence.

Right place, right time, right conditions.

See number 1

Fire.

There are animals out there that are smarter than humans. You are being a human chauvinist. One may say that animals are all smarter than humans. Humans are the only animals that mess up their environment intentionally.

A ridiculous thought. A bird will never get into a vehicle on vehicle accident, that does not make them smarter. Animals; outside of crows, Dolphins, some primates, and beavers, do not participate in manipulation of their surroundings to their advantage because they do not have the immense brain power, or energy to supply that brain power. Not out of altruism for Mother Earth. If what your saying is correct, zoology and behavioral psychology should not be considered sciences, since we have no way of measuring intelligence in any sort of way. So I'll ask again. Can we measure intelligence?

I dont see the relevance of a bird getting into an car accident. I said animals could be said to be smarter than humans. It all depends on who is doing the measuring. For example for years people have used an IQ test and its been discovered that there is no way that test can measure human intelligence simply because they werent smart enough to have it measure all types of intelligence. Even though there are other types of intelligence in humans whos to say they found them all?

 

[Asclepias]

Many folks conflate intelligence with narrative ego, the "I" that stars in the movie your imagination makes about yourself. Other species don't appear to have a narrative ego similar to ours and that difference is at the root of what most people think of as "intelligence," Equating the narrative ego with intelligence is an axiomatic assumption. It doesn't prove anything.

So when you put sunglasses that you can't see through on a chimp, so the chimp can't see, then you put those same sunglasses on yourself and the chimp still thinks you can see...that's some sort of unknown intelligence that we don't posses.

Seriously, dude, the chimp has a better grasp of the epistemological issues in defining intelligence than your post displays. Ask the chimp, I don't have time for this stuff.

Is intelligence a measurable quality is what I'm asking. According to you, it is not.

The answer is always going to be subjective.

If you disagree with my original 3rd question, you are in disagrement with the smartest evolutionary biologist. I did not make up these questions. There are some of the most debated among evolutionary biologists, but they all agree on the premise that there's a stark difference with intelligence among humans vs everything else

I'm comfortably being in disagreement with what you subjectively call the smartest evolutionary biologist. I never have held in awe people that all agree humans are the most anything. Their view is subjective simply by virtue of them using human standards. I bet if cats had such musings they would think humans were a lower form of life.

 

[sealybobo]

I get this might not necassarily belong in CDZ, but since I can't stand any of the other forums, this is where I'm posting it. I hope that this becomes a fun conversation

First question: How did chemicals from lifeless reactions, turn into life?

Second: How did the early simple, single cell prokaryotic forms of life that had reached their available energy threshold, jumped to a higher energy threshold and turn into a eukaryotic form. A much more complex cell, that becomes the building block for complex life.

Finally: How did the jump happen from standard animal intelligence to human consciousness? Sure there are some smart animals out there, but they do not hold a candle to human intelligence.

Right place, right time, right conditions.

See number 1

Fire.

There are animals out there that are smarter than humans. You are being a human chauvinist. One may say that animals are all smarter than humans. Humans are the only animals that mess up their environment intentionally.

A ridiculous thought. A bird will never get into a vehicle on vehicle accident, that does not make them smarter. Animals; outside of crows, Dolphins, some primates, and beavers, do not participate in manipulation of their surroundings to their advantage because they do not have the immense brain power, or energy to supply that brain power. Not out of altruism for Mother Earth. If what your saying is correct, zoology and behavioral psychology should not be considered sciences, since we have no way of measuring intelligence in any sort of way. So I'll ask again. Can we measure intelligence?

I dont see the relevance of a bird getting into an car accident. I said animals could be said to be smarter than humans. It all depends on who is doing the measuring. For example for years people have used an IQ test and its been discovered that there is no way that test can measure human intelligence simply because they werent smart enough to have it measure all types of intelligence. Even though there are other types of intelligence in humans whos to say they found them all?

The dolphins brain has been developing for millions of years longer than ours and they are mammals. Whales too. May not be smart in the way we build cars but they pretty much have their environment mastered.

 

[Moonglow]

Why did some animals evolve and some not?
Why are there no animals in "between" stages of evolution?

Why are species dying off?

 

[sealybobo]

So when you put sunglasses that you can't see through on a chimp, so the chimp can't see, then you put those same sunglasses on yourself and the chimp still thinks you can see...that's some sort of unknown intelligence that we don't posses.

Seriously, dude, the chimp has a better grasp of the epistemological issues in defining intelligence than your post displays. Ask the chimp, I don't have time for this stuff.

Is intelligence a measurable quality is what I'm asking. According to you, it is not.

The answer is always going to be subjective.

If you disagree with my original 3rd question, you are in disagrement with the smartest evolutionary biologist. I did not make up these questions. There are some of the most debated among evolutionary biologists, but they all agree on the premise that there's a stark difference with intelligence among humans vs everything else

I'm comfortably being in disagreement with what you subjectively call the smartest evolutionary biologist. I never have held in awe people that all agree humans are the most anything. Their view is subjective simply by virtue of them using human standards. I bet if cats had such musings they would think humans were a lower form of life.

Neil degrass Tyson said only 1% seperates us and the apes. Imagine a creature on another planet that is 1% smarter than us.

And then consider most humans aren't that smart. How many of us knows how to build an engine or survive in the woods with nothing for a month

 

[Bonzi]

Why did some animals evolve and some not?
Why are there no animals in "between" stages of evolution?

Why are species dying off?

Dunno, I'm no expert. Maybe.

 

[Moonglow]

Why did some animals evolve and some not?
Why are there no animals in "between" stages of evolution?

Why are species dying off?

Dunno, I'm no expert. Maybe.

I like a woman with a weak mind.....

 

[Bonzi]

Why did some animals evolve and some not?
Why are there no animals in "between" stages of evolution?

Why are species dying off?

Dunno, I'm no expert. Maybe.

I like a woman with a weak mind.....

yeah it's pretty lazy.
honestly, my mind is made up on things so - the debate seems pointless
I used to be an atheist as I have told you.
I know enough to be dangerous.
There are no concrete answers so it's a waste of time and brain power...

 

[sakinago]

I get this might not necassarily belong in CDZ, but since I can't stand any of the other forums, this is where I'm posting it. I hope that this becomes a fun conversation

First question: How did chemicals from lifeless reactions, turn into life?

Second: How did the early simple, single cell prokaryotic forms of life that had reached their available energy threshold, jumped to a higher energy threshold and turn into a eukaryotic form. A much more complex cell, that becomes the building block for complex life.

Finally: How did the jump happen from standard animal intelligence to human consciousness? Sure there are some smart animals out there, but they do not hold a candle to human intelligence.

Right place, right time, right conditions.

See number 1

Fire.

There are animals out there that are smarter than humans. You are being a human chauvinist. One may say that animals are all smarter than humans. Humans are the only animals that mess up their environment intentionally.

A ridiculous thought. A bird will never get into a vehicle on vehicle accident, that does not make them smarter. Animals; outside of crows, Dolphins, some primates, and beavers, do not participate in manipulation of their surroundings to their advantage because they do not have the immense brain power, or energy to supply that brain power. Not out of altruism for Mother Earth. If what your saying is correct, zoology and behavioral psychology should not be considered sciences, since we have no way of measuring intelligence in any sort of way. So I'll ask again. Can we measure intelligence?

I dont see the relevance of a bird getting into an car accident. I said animals could be said to be smarter than humans. It all depends on who is doing the measuring. For example for years people have used an IQ test and its been discovered that there is no way that test can measure human intelligence simply because they werent smart enough to have it measure all types of intelligence. Even though there are other types of intelligence in humans whos to say they found them all?

I brought it up to illustrate a point. A bird won't get injured driving a car, not bc it thinks cars are unsafe, but bc it simply can't. What you suggested is that we are less intelligent than animals, bc animals do not harm the environment (cattle alone make up for 30 or so percent of carbon emissions according to the UN), implying they do so out of some sort of altruism.

You are also implying that we have no way to measure animal intelligence, since we can't know all of the types of intelligence. So we can understand the functions of each section of the brain in the animals, but we cannot accurately measure the intelligence on animals that have no concept of intelligence, nor a section of their brains dedicated to conceptualization?

 

[sakinago]

I get this might not necassarily belong in CDZ, but since I can't stand any of the other forums, this is where I'm posting it. I hope that this becomes a fun conversation

First question: How did chemicals from lifeless reactions, turn into life?

Second: How did the early simple, single cell prokaryotic forms of life that had reached their available energy threshold, jumped to a higher energy threshold and turn into a eukaryotic form. A much more complex cell, that becomes the building block for complex life.

Finally: How did the jump happen from standard animal intelligence to human consciousness? Sure there are some smart animals out there, but they do not hold a candle to human intelligence.

Right place, right time, right conditions.

See number 1

Fire.

There are animals out there that are smarter than humans. You are being a human chauvinist. One may say that animals are all smarter than humans. Humans are the only animals that mess up their environment intentionally.

A ridiculous thought. A bird will never get into a vehicle on vehicle accident, that does not make them smarter. Animals; outside of crows, Dolphins, some primates, and beavers, do not participate in manipulation of their surroundings to their advantage because they do not have the immense brain power, or energy to supply that brain power. Not out of altruism for Mother Earth. If what your saying is correct, zoology and behavioral psychology should not be considered sciences, since we have no way of measuring intelligence in any sort of way. So I'll ask again. Can we measure intelligence?

I dont see the relevance of a bird getting into an car accident. I said animals could be said to be smarter than humans. It all depends on who is doing the measuring. For example for years people have used an IQ test and its been discovered that there is no way that test can measure human intelligence simply because they werent smart enough to have it measure all types of intelligence. Even though there are other types of intelligence in humans whos to say they found them all?

And IQ is just a measure of critical thinking/problem solving. No one is out there claiming it's a comprehensive measure of intelligence

 

[sakinago]

Who makes the "test" that measures it?
Are they not human?

What animal do you propose should be doing the measurements. This argument that bc were human we cannot have any understanding of animals, nor compare intelligences with them is a major departure from reality. Talk to evolutionary biologist, or any biologist, think about what you say before you say it