This is why we need to tax the wealthy

[bripat9643]

Capitalism has never been able to function without government infrastructure and oversight, historically it always falls. You can deny it, but that's fine, that's expected. You're delusional.

Another big fat lie. How much government infrastructure was there in the 1920s?

 

[bripat9643]

I'm referring to right-wing conservatives, who for the most part, don't complain when corporations receive services and resources from the government but are full of criticism for working-class people when they receive services and resources from the government.

I'm not even against the government helping a business, especially if it's a company with a large number of employees, that treats its workers well. I'm against the hypocrisy of many conservative Republicans who don't condemn the rich for getting assistance from the government but can't stop accusing working people of being lazy bums because they get services and resources from the government.

More bullshit.

 

[bripat9643]

Capitalism has never been able to function without government infrastructure and oversight, historically it always falls. You can deny it, but that's fine, that's expected. You're delusional.

Says the guy who spouts one interventionist lie after another.

 

[bripat9643]

Do you somehow think we have a free market economy?

When did I post that claim?

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

I didn’t know I was required to.

If you're engaged in a debate with someone on a forum like this or anywhere else, you should at least mention the points your opponent is making, even if you decide not to respond to them. You should explain why you're not going to provide an argument against those points, for whatever reason.

Frankly, your posts are entirely too long and convoluted to bother responding to every point.

Rest assured I read all your points but was not compelled to comment on every one.

You don't have to do anything, you can even not respond at all, that's up to you but if you're going to engage in a debate, you should at least do what I just said or else your opponent will lose interest in the discussion and will begin ignoring you. If whenever I make a point my opponent ignores it, I won't invest more of my precious time or energy in their posts.

Yes. I get paid by the day but nevertheless, the company I work for pays me to do a job.

Yes, they're purchasing your labor power, or essentially you, for a day or whatever.

Yes. That's how it works.

You have rights, as a human being (You're not a circus monkey), and if your employer, whoever that might be, doesn't recognize your human rights, you should have the leverage and means to file a complaint and have your legitimate needs met.

Okay.

You should also keep in mind that in capitalism there are socio-economic classes with their own unique interests or needs due to the nature of their role in a capitalist economy. Each class has a right to unite or create unions. The wealthy have their own unions, in the form of Chambers of Commerce, industry specific associations and guilds, super-PACs, NGOs that lobby the government, think tanks, exclusive country clubs..etc.

If wealthy powerful employers can unionize, so can the working class. Labor can likewise unite and leverage their power in the same way and if employers deny that by firing workers who unite with other workers, the government has every right to intervene and tell that employer, NOPE.

There's already a great power imbalance between the wealthy, capitalist class, and workers, so workers have the right to also form their own organizations that protect their interests. Collective bargaining is the most effective way for workers to protect and advance their legitimate needs against employers who exploit and abuse them. Workers should not be forced due to horrible conditions in the workplace or lack of wage raises and benefits, to be forced out of their jobs. No one should lose their jobs because they had to spend three days in the hospital or had an emergency. Workers should by default have certain benefits in virtue of being human.

I'm not sure what your point is here. It sounds like you're advocating for unions but we already have unions.

As I said, I don’t like the increasing automation any more than you but what is a viable solution that doesn’t involve usurping the rights of businesses to cut costs?

When did I ever say I didn't like automation? I love advanced, intelligent automation and technology in general, it ensures that socialism will replace capitalism in the not-too-distant future. I love it. Please automate capitalism to oblivion, be my guest. Thanks.

You're the one who brought up automation, not me.

Maybe, maybe not. But banks loan to who or what they see as low risk. They’re not likely to loan to a bunch of people who have no real world experience at running a business.

Not maybe not, they don't loan money to anyone, with or without business experience, if the venture is a worker-owned cooperative. If a group of skilled, well-experienced, ambitious workers with great credit seek a loan to start one they're always turned down, whereas a wealthy trust fund baby fresh out of college will go to the bank and get half a million bucks or more to start his or her business. That's unfair, no matter how you try to worm yourself out of admitting it.

Stop making shit up about how I view things. I haven't tried to "worm" out of admitting anything.

The SBA, (i.e. Small Business Administration) a government organization that helps new, inexperienced entrepreneurs start businesses also refuses to assist people wanting to start a worker-owned cooperative, no matter how experienced or skilled they are. So your lame attempt to justify this doesn't fly. You sound like a capitalist, not a working-class person.

If you mean I sound like someone who supports capitalism as an economic system then, yes, I am a capitalist. I'm also an upper middle class worker. The two are not mutually exclusive you know.

I forget what the percentage is but a majority of new businesses fail within six months and bank and loan companies know this.

Exactly, so it doesn't make much sense to be so against worker-owned cooperatives, being that they are more competitive and resilient, more robust than regular businesses.

Did I or did I not say that if a group of people wanted to start and run a business together then have at it? When did I even imply that I'm against it?

This is getting tedious. You're not paying attention at all to what I say.

Worker Cooperatives Are More Productive Than Normal Companies

And even if that were not the case, there is no excuse to single out worker-owned cooperatives as undesirable loan recipients when there's no evidence that they do any worse than other business models. As I just mentioned, they often do better, based on certain studies and stats.

It would be unconstitutional under any system.

It wouldn't be unconstitutional under any system, being that, that other system's constitution could allow it. Even our US Constitution could allow it as well, provided it is amended to allow it.

So you want to make something that is currently unconstitutional - in that it would involve the government usurping rights - and just let the government change the Constitution allowing them to usurp rights?

Again, choice.

I agree, it should be a choice, although I believe people owning the business they work at with their fellow workers, is the ideal. Productive enterprises should be run democratically, without unelected leadership. Under our current capitalist system, it's a matter of choice, and I accept that.

Non profit? What the hell would be the point of that?

It's necessary due to the eventual replacement of wage labor by advanced technology. All production is done within a marketless, non-profit system, to meet people's needs. People will always be consumers, but not necessarily paying consumers, in the same sense they are now where they earn a wage and then purchase products in a marketplace from capitalists with their incomes (their wages). Eventually, society is going to be forced by necessity, to adopt a non-profit, marketless, more democratic form of production, free of capitalism or the pursuit of profits.

Um, what? A company doesn’t sell you, they sell the product. And you know who’s buying the product? Workers. How can they afford the product? With the money they’re paid to work.

Capitalists buy/rent you for X amount of time daily, they don't sell you. They purchase you to produce and deliver their products and services for sale in a marketplace.

Not the way I would put it but, yes.

If true, workers would be commodified under any system.

False, since commodities are products that are sold in a marketplace, and not all systems of production include markets.

If people suffer from being paid to work then they will be miserable wretches anywhere, anytime.

People suffer when they work under poor conditions and their terms of employment are abusive or unfair, not allowing them to meet their basic needs.

People suffer as much as they choose to.

No one should work full-time and yet not have enough to feed themselves and their families, and have a roof over their heads. People who work full-time should get paid a living wage, namely, enough to meet, at least, their basic needs. Anything other than that is abusive exploitation and shouldn't be tolerated in a modern, civilized society like ours.

Neither companies nor the government are obligated to compensate you for your life choices; where you work, how much pay you choose to accept, spending habits, where you choose to live, etc.

Suffering is a part of life, such that we measure our lives against our suffering.

Remind the wealthy capitalists who live in opulence of that profound truth when they start complaining about their workers asserting their legitimate rights and interests. You only direct your appeal to austerity at your fellow workers, not at your capitalist master.

Yes, "master". Even Adam Smith, the father of capitalism, identified capitalists as masters of their workers:

"What are the common wages of labor, depends everywhere upon the contract usually made between those two parties, whose interests are by no means the same. The workmen desire to get as much, the masters to give as little as possible. The former are disposed to combine in order to raise, the latter in order to lower the wages of labor.

It is not, however, difficult to foresee which of the two parties must, upon all ordinary occasions, have the advantage in the dispute, and force the other into a compliance with their terms. The masters, being fewer in number, can combine much more easily; and the law, besides, authorizes, or at least does not prohibit their combinations, while it prohibits those of the workmen." (Book I, Chapter VIII)

I realize that you don't care about having a human master, but some people don't accept having a human master, only elected leaders that they trust and are accountable to their subordinates.

If I didn't trust my employer I would look for another job. I don't know how such a simple concept escapes your understanding.

If it serves to increase or preserve prosperity, great. But if it constrains individuality or subverts individual rights and liberties, forget it.

I agree.

Exactly.

That's why production will eventually become fully automated and we will have to adopt a non-profit, marketless economic system. It's just the nature of human production and advanced technology. Socialism is inevitable, but it has to be done correctly, in a way that increases people's standard of living and upholds democracy. It has to be a democratic socialism, not a totalitarian, oppressive one.

 

[gipper]

When did I post that claim?

I asked you a question. I assume your response means you know we don’t have a free market economy.

 

[Nostra]

Your post is 100% off topic and it does nothing to back up the lie that Trump kept out illegals.

Did I nail it or what? pknopp is just as predictable as the sunrise.

That hack will come back with “Illegals got in under Trump” and ignore the massive difference in the numbers.

But ya know, he is independent.

 

[struth]

You can read this thread and see how many pretend it is.

we stop electing demafascsit we will be right back to it.

I suspect it’s too late. Tyranny is coming to America.

see above

 

[TruthNotBS]

Frankly, your posts are entirely too long and convoluted to bother responding to every point.

Rest assured I read all your points but was not compelled to comment on every one.


Yes. That's how it works.


Okay.


I'm not sure what your point is here. It sounds like you're advocating for unions but we already have unions.


You're the one who brought up automation, not me.


Stop making shit up about how I view things. I haven't tried to "worm" out of admitting anything.


If you mean I sound like someone who supports capitalism as an economic system then, yes, I am a capitalist. I'm also an upper middle class worker. The two are not mutually exclusive you know.



Did I or did I not say that if a group of people wanted to start and run a business together then have at it? When did I even imply that I'm against it?

This is getting tedious. You're not paying attention at all to what I say.


So you want to make something that is currently unconstitutional - in that it would involve the government usurping rights - and just let the government change the Constitution allowing them to usurp rights?


Not the way I would put it but, yes.


People suffer as much as they choose to.


Neither companies nor the government are obligated to compensate you for your life choices; where you work, how much pay you choose to accept, spending habits, where you choose to live, etc.




If I didn't trust my employer I would look for another job. I don't know how such a simple concept escapes your understanding.

Frankly, your posts are entirely too long and convoluted to bother responding to every point.

You're just unable to refute my points, hence you ignore them. If anyone is "convoluted" and ignorant it's you.

Rest assured I read all your points but was not compelled to comment on every one.

You're reading everything I write and yet find practically nothing that compels you to respond to it? Everything is "convoluted"? Only an idiot would continue reading everything I write yet considers my points not worth responding to or "convoluted".

Yes. That's how it works.

Unlike you, I do respond to all of your points, regardless of how imbecilic they are, but I do it for the sake of others, not you.

I'm not sure what your point is here. It sounds like you're advocating for unions but we already have unions.

I advocate for the government's protection of labor unions, which is constantly being challenged by capitalists.


You're the one who brought up automation, not me.

Right? Why did you assume I was against them? You obviously have a reading comprehension problem.

Stop making shit up about how I view things. I haven't tried to "worm" out of admitting anything.

All you do is worm in defense of capitalism.

If you mean I sound like someone who supports capitalism as an economic system then, yes, I am a capitalist. I'm also an upper middle class worker. The two are not mutually exclusive you know.

You're not a capitalist unless you have a business, and the type of capitalists who I criticize the most are those who abusively exploit others. I already identified who you are. You're one of these working-class managers who thinks he's essentially superior to his co-workers, hence identifies himself with the capitalist class, rather than with his own socioeconomic class. You're a capitalist bootlicker.

Did I or did I not say that if a group of people wanted to start and run a business together then have at it? When did I even imply that I'm against it?

You ignore the fact that the banks and SBA don't support worker-cooperative startups even though all of the data shows them to be even more likely to succeed and generate a profit than a normal business.

This is getting tedious. You're not paying attention at all to what I say.

I definitely pay attention to the stupid shit that you say, but I do it for the sake of others because I realize you're brain-dead.

So you want to make something that is currently unconstitutional - in that it would involve the government usurping rights - and just let the government change the Constitution allowing them to usurp rights?

The community determines what is in our constitution. The Constitution was designed by the founding fathers to be amended or changed to meet the needs of the nation. Our rights and government policies are based on what the community or country decides.

People suffer as much as they choose to.

Much suffering is caused by injustice. It's not always the person's fault.

Neither companies nor the government are obligated to compensate you for your life choices; where you work, how much pay you choose to accept, spending habits, where you choose to live, etc.

Depending on what the community decides, the government can indeed prevent powerful, wealthy employers from engaging in abusive, exploitative practices or violating the rights of workers. One of the ways that it does that is by protecting workers in their efforts to form unions, not allowing their employers to harrass or fire them for unionizing. You can cry all you want, but who cares. Cry, the workers will unionize and collectively bargain and advance their interests despite of you.

If I didn't trust my employer I would look for another job. I don't know how such a simple concept escapes your understanding.

Whenever your employer abuses you, you leave the job and find another employer. That's dumb because, with your stupid attitude, every employer will be emboldened to abuse their employees, knowing that all that will happen is that the worker will leave, without any negative consequences for the wealthy, powerful employer.

Workers have the right to unionize and protect their rights against employers who mistreat them, including the right to bargain their terms of employment collectively as a group. If you don't like that, who cares? You can remain the idiot who refuses to join the union. It's a fact that non-union workers earn less and have fewer benefits than union members. Continue being a dummy if you wish.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

None of it has anything to do with addressing the debt.

Why didn't you just say then that it was irrelevant?

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

I'm referring to right-wing conservatives, who for the most part, don't complain when corporations receive services and resources from the government but are full of criticism for working-class people when they receive services and resources from the government.

If you want to address a group, address the group. Otherwise, address me and my comments.

I'm not even against the government helping a business, especially if it's a company with a large number of employees, that treats its workers well. I'm against the hypocrisy of many conservative Republicans who don't condemn the rich for getting assistance from the government but can't stop accusing working people of being lazy bums because they get services and resources from the government.

I condemn the government for giving the money.

You seem to expect the government that is guilty of massive wasteful spending to solve your economic problems for you.

 

[Jarlaxle]

I dont believe that

She may be frustrated by liberals open door policy

And that causes concerned citizens to say things they dont really mean

Shoot on sight is one of those things

No, she's absolutely in favor of it and has been for years now.

 

[Jarlaxle]

You lack critical thinking skills and knowledge of history. Russia was an under-industrialized, agrarian society comprised mostly of illiterate peasants, and from 1917 to the late 1930s, it became an industrial juggernaut rivaling the United States, with almost a 90% literacy rate. It accomplished with socialist central planning (Stalin's five-year plans), in about two decades, what took the US over a century of capitalist industrialization. The USSR despite everything it suffered at the hands of its very powerful enemies, became the second economy in the world, and a nuclear superpower, so to poopoo that is quite silly, if not insane.

Did the mercantile class of Europe, replace the royal aristocracy overnight, or did it take centuries? The European merchants didn't become the powerful pro-Republican industrialists of the 19th century until material conditions permitted them to rise to that position. The same applies for socialism. Technology will eventually propel socialists to the front, out of necessity. Material conditions determine what mode of production and political system society adopts, not wishful thinking.

The Soviet Union was built on sand. It required huge western aid to advance at all.

By what metric does China exceed the US?

We can thank Democrats for the military.

Total GDP, maybe...due in part to triple the population.

 

[imawhosure]

Billionaires Are Hoarding Trillions in Untaxed Wealth. They Want the Supreme Court to Keep It That Way

A new report from Americans for Tax Fairness found that America’s richest families accumulated $8.5 trillion in untaxed capital gains in 2022

www.yahoo.com

TRILLIONS in untaxed wealth. Good luck explaining this to republicans I guess. You have to explain the difference between the official tax rate and the EFFECTIVE tax rate of top earners.

The reason we have to tax the wealthy is really simple, and everyone needs to understand this-------> BECAUSE people like Billy-E-Baloney do NOT want to work, do NOT want to learn anything to move them up the ladder in the economic system, and because their whole life under their parents has been about BITCHING.......and they got their way by doing it. They do not like the fact that we now, LAUGH at them.

Bille Baloney, you are a PHONY-E-BALONEY, and while you are dumb as a box of rocks, anyone who buys your nonsense is dumber than you! If you actually find these people who are dumber than you, then I would grab onto them. You NEED each other, lol.

 

[imawhosure]

Billionaires Are Hoarding Trillions in Untaxed Wealth. They Want the Supreme Court to Keep It That Way

A new report from Americans for Tax Fairness found that America’s richest families accumulated $8.5 trillion in untaxed capital gains in 2022

www.yahoo.com

TRILLIONS in untaxed wealth. Good luck explaining this to republicans I guess. You have to explain the difference between the official tax rate and the EFFECTIVE tax rate of top earners.

Billie Baloney, you realize that everyone laughs at your nonsense!

 

[imawhosure]

Billionaires Are Hoarding Trillions in Untaxed Wealth. They Want the Supreme Court to Keep It That Way

A new report from Americans for Tax Fairness found that America’s richest families accumulated $8.5 trillion in untaxed capital gains in 2022

www.yahoo.com

TRILLIONS in untaxed wealth. Good luck explaining this to republicans I guess. You have to explain the difference between the official tax rate and the EFFECTIVE tax rate of top earners.

I used to have a pony, wished I named him Bille Baloney............but truth be told, my pony was smarter than you, so Billy Baloney was not the correct name! Although, riding you around as a LIBERAL bi*** would teach a whole lot of people a lesson in life-)

The reason we have to tax the wealthy is really simple, and everyone needs to understand this-------> BECAUSE people like Billy-E-Baloney do NOT want to work, do NOT want to learn anything to move them up the ladder in the economic system, and because their whole life under their parents has been about BITCHING.......and they got their way by doing it. They do not like the fact that we now, LAUGH at them.

Bille Baloney, you are a PHONY-E-BALONEY, and while you are dumb as a box of rocks, anyone who buys your nonsense is dumber than you! If you actually find these people who are dumber than you, then I would grab onto them. You NEED each other, lol.

 

[Billy000]

The reason we have to tax the wealthy is really simple, and everyone needs to understand this-------> BECAUSE people like Billy-E-Baloney do NOT want to work, do NOT want to learn anything to move them up the ladder in the economic system, and because their whole life under their parents has been about BITCHING.......and they got their way by doing it. They do not like the fact that we now, LAUGH at them.

Bille Baloney, you are a PHONY-E-BALONEY, and while you are dumb as a box of rocks, anyone who buys your nonsense is dumber than you! If you actually find these people who are dumber than you, then I would grab onto them. You NEED each other, lol.

lol I get that you morons feel tough and manly just assuming there is an epidemic of unemployed moochers because you’re desperate for validation, but you’re all deluding yourselves. The unemployment rate is below 4%. Most people including myself have jobs. My job is mid level at my company and I am in the middle class.
Sorry to break it to you nut you aren’t special for being employed lol

 

[imawhosure]

I used to have a pony, wished I named him Bille Baloney............but truth be told, my pony was smarter than you, so Billy Baloney was not the correct name! Although, riding you around as a LIBERAL bi*** would teach a whole lot of people a lesson in life-)

pknopp likes you Billy-Baloney. Contact him, lol. Between the 2 of you, I am sure you can find something to do-)

 

[hadit]

That's my.proposal.

If they're hiring, they're good - if they're not, tax the shit out of them and make it hurt. There should be.lots of incentive for hiring people, and it should be painful to store 9 figures.

Why? If they don't need more workers, no one should be pushing them to hire people to do nothing. And here's a little hint for you. A company can't sit on money, it always gets spent. I saw it happen from the inside at Circuit City. Management was gleefully touting that they were sitting on a billion in cash and could do whatever they wanted. Less than 10 years later, they were out of business.

 

[imawhosure]

lol I get that you morons feel tough and manly just assuming there is an epidemic of unemployed moochers because you’re desperate for validation, but you’re all deluding yourselves. The unemployment rate is below 4%. Most people including myself have jobs. My job is mid level at my company and I am in the middle class.
Sorry to break it to you nut you aren’t special for being employed lol

lol, you are basking in bullsh**, but that is a-ok, because before the 1st Presidential ballot is cast, everyone is going to see exactly where we are. You heard of Carter I assume! Same crap you put out, his people did too. Let me tell ya......many minorities are turning against you, and let us see how arrogant you are after you get smoked!