This is how we end it! (solution)

[Humanity]

Places where Jews live must no longer be thought of as illegal.

So, you want the illegal settlements to be recognized as legal?

Do you think that is something that will happen unilaterally?

 

[Humanity]

peace, justice and freedom starts with mutual recognition.

Absolutely right!

But... You want illegal settlements to be recognized as legal to the detriment of others... That doesn't sound like a balanced "mutual recognition".

 

[Shusha]

peace, justice and freedom starts with mutual recognition.

Absolutely right!

But... You want illegal settlements to be recognized as legal to the detriment of others... That doesn't sound like a balanced "mutual recognition".

I want the presence of Jews NOT to be an obstacle to peace. The presence of Arabs in Israel is not an obstacle to peace. So the presence of Jews in a would-be Arab Palestine should not be an obstacle to peace. A Jew-free space should no more be a prerequisite for peace than an Arab-free space. The Jewish State has non-Jews. The Arab Palestinian State will have non-Arabs. So what? THAT is balanced mutual recognition.

As it is now, all this talk about "illegal settlements" (which only applies to Jews) is just an excuse to create (actually maintain 'clean') Jew-free spaces. (You know, like the rest of the Middle East.)

 

[abi]

I want the presence of Jews NOT to be an obstacle to peace.

You will need to remove the zionist regime.

The presence of Arabs in Israel is not an obstacle to peace.

Right, sure, of course.

So the presence of Jews in a would-be Arab Palestine should not be an obstacle to peace.

And they wont be after the zionists are removed from power.

A Jew-free space should no more be a prerequisite for peace than an Arab-free space.

And it wouldn't be.

The Jewish State has non-Jews. The Arab Palestinian State will have non-Arabs. So what? THAT is balanced mutual recognition.

Perhaps it will be one state after the zionist regime is gone. THAT is balanced mutual recognition.

As it is now, all this talk about "illegal settlements" (which only applies to Jews) is just an excuse to create (actually maintain 'clean') Jew-free spaces. (You know, like the rest of the Middle East.)

The racial colonies are flagrant violations of international law and only exist because the world has not grown the balls to do something besides vote at the UN.

 

[Humanity]

As it is now, all this talk about "illegal settlements" (which only applies to Jews) is just an excuse to create (actually maintain 'clean') Jew-free spaces. (You know, like the rest of the Middle East.)

Oh come on Shusha...

It only applies to Jews because???

Answers on a postcard...

 

[Shusha]

As it is now, all this talk about "illegal settlements" (which only applies to Jews) is just an excuse to create (actually maintain 'clean') Jew-free spaces. (You know, like the rest of the Middle East.)

Oh come on Shusha...

It only applies to Jews because???

Answers on a postcard...

Really? Come on now. You aren't going to try to tell me that only Jews build illegally, are you?

 

[Shusha]

And you are still missing the point. If the presence of Jews is not an obstacle to peace (as the presence of Arabs is not an obstacle to peace), then it doesn't matter where Jews live because the borders can be drawn anywhere. It doesn't require anyone to be removed from anywhere. One Jewish state with a majority of Jews and some non-Jews. One Arab Palestinian state with a majority of Arabs and some non-Arabs. Acceptance. Peace.

 

[Humanity]

As it is now, all this talk about "illegal settlements" (which only applies to Jews) is just an excuse to create (actually maintain 'clean') Jew-free spaces. (You know, like the rest of the Middle East.)

Oh come on Shusha...

It only applies to Jews because???

Answers on a postcard...

Really? Come on now. You aren't going to try to tell me that only Jews build illegally, are you?

Well, I suppose that depends if you want to take my post of of context or not doesn't it.

I mean to say, my neighbour built illegally, do you want to throw that into the mix as well or shall we stick with illegal settlements built by Israelis as was posted?

 

[rylah]

Can anyone define "P-e-a-c-e"?

 

[Shusha]

As it is now, all this talk about "illegal settlements" (which only applies to Jews) is just an excuse to create (actually maintain 'clean') Jew-free spaces. (You know, like the rest of the Middle East.)

Oh come on Shusha...

It only applies to Jews because???

Answers on a postcard...

Really? Come on now. You aren't going to try to tell me that only Jews build illegally, are you?

Well, I suppose that depends if you want to take my post of of context or not doesn't it.

I mean to say, my neighbour built illegally, do you want to throw that into the mix as well or shall we stick with illegal settlements built by Israelis as was posted?

We should stick with the point of my posts -- which is that the presence of Jews should be accepted (as is the presence of Arabs) and once that acceptance takes place then peace will come. Its the rejection of Jews which is the problem.

 

[rylah]

Can anyone define "P-e-a-c-e"?

People, really I'm not cynical here.
It can help us together, because we're a small group, discussing separate issues with each other for years and ...without having a clear definition of mutual GOALS.

We at least have to clearly understand how each of us sees th situation AFTER the solution, from all sides - to know what is the average, middle ground.

 

[Shusha]

Can anyone define "P-e-a-c-e"?

People, really I'm not cynical here.
It can help us together, because we're a small group, discussing separate issues with each other for years and ...without having a clear definition of mutual GOALS.

We at least have to clearly understand how each of us sees th situation AFTER the solution, from all sides - to know what is the average, middle ground.

This is an excellent point. I believe a peaceful end goal would be Jewish self-rule in the State of Israel and Arab Palestinian self-rule, which may or may not mean the creation of new states.

 

[flacaltenn]

Places where Jews live must no longer be thought of as illegal.

So, you want the illegal settlements to be recognized as legal?

Do you think that is something that will happen unilaterally?

I think everything about "boundaries" should STILL be on the table. In fact, I believe "boundaries" for a Pali homeland MIGHT EXTEND outside of current Israel as well for a REAL solution. Through land swaps with Jordan to get rid of their god awful Pali refugee camps inside of Jordan in exchange for some small parcels EAST of the Jordan river being donated to the Pali homeland.. Same deal with the awful conditions that Lebanon has to support with their "unwanted" Pali population. So a bigger picture of "borders" would open up opportunities for the ENTIRE neighborhood. Even Egypt might buy in to some extent for "peace" and getting rid of their radical islamist problems in the Sinai..

Palestine doesn't HAVE to be contiguous.. It could look more like a collection of City States that are connected by avenues for commerce and trade. A Palestine as such would be on a tremendous "trade route" for the entire Levant. Including seaports at Gaza/Sinai and room for growth on the banks of the Jordan.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Places where Jews live must no longer be thought of as illegal.

So, you want the illegal settlements to be recognized as legal?

Do you think that is something that will happen unilaterally?

I think everything about "boundaries" should STILL be on the table. In fact, I believe "boundaries" for a Pali homeland MIGHT EXTEND outside of current Israel as well for a REAL solution. Through land swaps with Jordan to get rid of their god awful Pali refugee camps inside of Jordan in exchange for some small parcels EAST of the Jordan river being donated to the Pali homeland.. Same deal with the awful conditions that Lebanon has to support with their "unwanted" Pali population. So a bigger picture of "borders" would open up opportunities for the ENTIRE neighborhood. Even Egypt might buy in to some extent for "peace" and getting rid of their radical islamist problems in the Sinai..

Palestine doesn't HAVE to be contiguous.. It could look more like a collection of City States that are connected by avenues for commerce and trade. A Palestine as such would be on a tremendous "trade route" for the entire Levant. Including seaports at Gaza/Sinai and room for growth on the banks of the Jordan.

Tinmore will never go for city-states, because he'd compare them to the Bantustans of South Africa, instead of Athens, Sparta and Thebes. It depends on how you look at it.

 

[abi]

Palestine doesn't HAVE to be contiguous

But, Israel must exist on top of where Palestinians existed for centuries?

 

[Shusha]

Palestine doesn't HAVE to be contiguous

But, Israel must exist on top of where Palestinians existed for centuries?

Well, no. Israel must exist in the place where the Jewish people have lived for 3000 years and is their homeland.

Once you get THAT -- peace is not so hard after all.

 

[abi]

Well, no. Israel must exist in the place where the Jewish people have lived for 3000 years and is their homeland.

Once you get THAT -- peace is not so hard after all.

Lies never make it true nor lead to peace.

Jews being there and the Jewish people have lived for 3000 years are two different things and irrelevant either way.

The zionists came from another continent, they piggybacked off biblical beliefs and they stole the homes and the land of others.

 

[flacaltenn]

Places where Jews live must no longer be thought of as illegal.

So, you want the illegal settlements to be recognized as legal?

Do you think that is something that will happen unilaterally?

I think everything about "boundaries" should STILL be on the table. In fact, I believe "boundaries" for a Pali homeland MIGHT EXTEND outside of current Israel as well for a REAL solution. Through land swaps with Jordan to get rid of their god awful Pali refugee camps inside of Jordan in exchange for some small parcels EAST of the Jordan river being donated to the Pali homeland.. Same deal with the awful conditions that Lebanon has to support with their "unwanted" Pali population. So a bigger picture of "borders" would open up opportunities for the ENTIRE neighborhood. Even Egypt might buy in to some extent for "peace" and getting rid of their radical islamist problems in the Sinai..

Palestine doesn't HAVE to be contiguous.. It could look more like a collection of City States that are connected by avenues for commerce and trade. A Palestine as such would be on a tremendous "trade route" for the entire Levant. Including seaports at Gaza/Sinai and room for growth on the banks of the Jordan.

Tinmore will never go for city-states, because he'd compare them to the Bantustans of South Africa, instead of Athens, Sparta and Thebes. It depends on how you look at it.

And yet part of the problem in ORGANIZING Palestinians is the wide difference in tolerance and culture between adjacent major cities in the West Bank. You can buy women's lingerie/sex toys in one and not in the others. That's why there's never been a UNIFIED Palestine in the 1st place. Maybe it needs to be a bit more autonomous by city/region. With just a minimal "federal govt"...

 

[PredFan]

How many peace treaties have the Palestinian terrorists broken now? Every single one.

Israel isn’t going to fall for it anymore.

 

[Shusha]

Lies never make it true nor lead to peace.

Jews being there and the Jewish people have lived for 3000 years are two different things and irrelevant either way.

The zionists came from another continent, they piggybacked off biblical beliefs and they stole the homes and the land of others.

Yes. This is exactly why there will be no peace. Because Arabs fundamentally reject the history of the Jewish people in the Jewish people's own homeland. They fundamentally regard the history of the Jewish people as irrelevant.

There can never be peace without mutual recognition and acceptance. It isn't there. It may never be there.

You are doing a stellar job of making my point for me.