Zone1 Things that block people from God

[Blues Man]

People have different ideas on what is or isn't "detrimental." Some societies might think killing the sick, elderly or mentally impaired is beneficial to society. So are they right just because they think so?

We've had this conversation before. The bottom line is moral relativism / subjectivism is flatly false and filled with logical problems.

But all of this is besides the point, and a topic for a thread of its own.




Of course you believe that, as a nonbeliever. You can believe what you want, but I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are so wrong. But again, I don't expect you to believe this, because if you did believe there was a spiritual 'dark side', you'd also believe in God.




Where did you get that from what was posted? I didn't say that we were separate from the universe. #4 is just about people being so focused on temporary and ultimately pointless things, that they don't look to things that are more meaningful and important.

Some societies did think that. Deformed babies were allowed to die or were even smothered. The sick and infirm were left behind to die when tribes moved on.

And those people did not consider it "wrong" to do so. It doesn't matter what we in our nice homes stocked with too much food and our electric lights, central heat and air conditioning TVs cars and modern medicine think about it now.

You cannot judge the past by the present.

And you can't tell me there is some enemy because you cannot produce that enemy. People do what people do there is no need to make up some evil spirit to explain it.

 

[Blues Man]

I don't want to get too sidetracked, but you brought up something I want to say something about. You brought up being "made in God's image."

I think most Christians think of being made in God's image as meaning that we are beings with a mind / intellect and the ability to reason and make moral choices.

I think that's part of it, but my view on the meaning of being made in God's image is different than the standard view. I think it has to do with our God-given dominion over the rest of creation. Why, because when you read the verse in Genesis 1 about being made in God's image, it is in the very same sentence about us having dominion over the animals and the earth. BUT (and I hope you would agree with this) I believe that humanity has for the most part done the exact opposite of what God wanted us to do. He wanted us to take care of the animals in HIS image and likeness, which means with LOVE, mercy, kindness, selflessness and a genuine care and concern for their life and well-being, like God's dominion over us. And what have we done? The opposite, we've exploited the hell out of animals, used them for our own selfish reasons, with little to no regard for their life and their desire to live and enjoy life.... our dominion over creation has NOT been in God's image, if anything it has been in the image of the lowercase "god" of this world, the enemy of God. Since you're also a vegan, I'm hoping you can see what I'm saying, even if you don't believe in God.

So with that context in mind, humans being "created in God's image" means we have the unique role of being managers over the rest of creation, but not in our own own image, but in GOD's...so it's more like being a steward, or viceroy, rather than us being the highest King with no one above us.

Ok, / off topic commentary

And we are not managers of the any part of creation of creation. Unless you think this tiny little rock in the void is the extent of all creation and we are not doing a very good job managing it are we?

 

[buttercup]

Some societies did think that. Deformed babies were allowed to die or were even smothered. The sick and infirm were left behind to die when tribes moved on.

And those people did not consider it "wrong" to do so. It doesn't matter what we in our nice homes stocked with too much food and our electric lights, central heat and air conditioning TVs cars and modern medicine think about it now.

You cannot judge the past by the present.

I know, but what I asked you was does their thinking it's beneficial for society automatically make it right?

Some societies practice cannibalism. Including killing someone to eat them. Does their idea that cannibalism is a good thing make it a good thing in reality?

And you can't tell me there is some enemy because you cannot produce that enemy. People do what people do there is no need to make up some evil spirit to explain it.

I just finished saying I don't expect you to believe it. But truth isn't dependent on what you believe or disbelieve.

 

[buttercup]

And we are not managers of the any part of creation of creation. Unless you think this tiny little rock in the void is the extent of all creation and we are not doing a very good job managing it are we?

How can you say that, when it's demonstrably untrue? Of course humans manage the rest of creation in THIS world. (the animals, the earth.)

But of course that doesn't mean we do a good job of it. Like I said earlier, we've pretty much done the exact opposite of what God wanted us to do.... but I'm not sure how you can deny that humans manage the animals and the physical earth.

 

[Dagosa]

Not loaded at all. You are a unique person living a unique life. Jesus already did his part. What is your part, and how do you choose to live it--in obedience to God, or disobedient? Obedience is discipline and leads to a stronger, better person.

What is it about Christianity you do not like?

Obedience to God, according to whom ? Which God ? There are at least 6 out there. This is why we can’t take religious fanatics serious. You can’t answer even the most basic of questions. Which god ? Answer !

 

[1miseryindex]

PRIDE encompasses so many sins

Pride tells you that you don't need Jesus
OR tells you that you are already right about everything concerning Jesus, religion and related matters, no need to work on anything (while Philippians 2:12 says to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"

 

[1miseryindex]

Yes, very good point. That's something that I think many Christians forget, or don't take seriously enough. I think we all fail at that from time to time, but some Christians really need to learn that without love, we are nothing but a clanging cymbal. And without showing any good fruit, but the opposite (angry, hateful, condemning, finger-pointing, etc) is not going to lead anyone to God. The bible says that the goodness and mercy of God is what leads people to repentance... so that's what the unbelieving world needs to see.

I have read the entire Bible and the best version thereof and I do not at all recall where the Bible says this, except that nowadays people find the most bizarre stuff allegedly alluded to in Scripture, so there's that.

Jesus was angry, visibly in the temple bc people were makng the church into a marketplace. That happens a lot these days also. Did Jesus stop being angry about that?

how about murdering unborn children?

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Some societies did think that. Deformed babies were allowed to die or were even smothered. The sick and infirm were left behind to die when tribes moved on.

And those people did not consider it "wrong" to do so.

Did you ever noticed that those cultures DIED OUT? Attribute that to whatever you like, but GOD despises the killing of the innocent. If a culture continues this practice and doesn't repent (change), that culture is doomed.

America is on that path as are the formerly Christian nations. If WE don't turn from this, we won't be here much longer God WILL replace us

 

[Meriweather]

Which god ? Answer !

There is only one.

 

[buttercup]

I have read the entire Bible and the best version thereof and I do not at all recall where the Bible says this, except that nowadays people find the most bizarre stuff allegedly alluded to in Scripture, so there's that.

Jesus was angry, visibly in the temple bc people were makng the church into a marketplace. That happens a lot these days also. Did Jesus stop being angry about that?

how about murdering unborn children?

You don't recall where the Bible says what? About God's goodness/ kindness leading people to repentance? If so, that's Romans 2:4.

And I never claimed that Jesus was never angry. Yes, when He turned the tables that was an example of righteous anger. I was replying to someone's post who had brought up Christians with a bad, condemning demeanor and how that can drive people away. I didn't say that anger is always bad, but there's a difference between occasional righteous anger... and being a hateful, bad-tempered angry person. There are plenty of scriptures against that latter type of anger.

 

[Blues Man]

I know, but what I asked you was does their thinking it's beneficial for society automatically make it right?

Some societies practice cannibalism. Including killing someone to eat them. Does their idea that cannibalism is a good thing make it a good thing in reality?




I just finished saying I don't expect you to believe it. But truth isn't dependent on what you believe or disbelieve.

It was "right" for them at the time since it benefitted the survival of the tribe and that was the prime concern of primitive people.

We cannot use modern sensibilities to judge the behaviors of prehistoric societies.

You think what you believe is true so it seems your truth indeed is predicated on what you believe.

 

[Blues Man]

How can you say that, when it's demonstrably untrue? Of course humans manage the rest of creation in THIS world. (the animals, the earth.)

But of course that doesn't mean we do a good job of it. Like I said earlier, we've pretty much done the exact opposite of what God wanted us to do.... but I'm not sure how you can deny that humans manage the animals and the physical earth.

No we don't. How do we "manage" the life in the deepest seas where no human has ever been? How do we "manage" the lives of all the animals in the wild?

And this planet is not the whole of creation is it?

 

[Blues Man]

Did you ever noticed that those cultures DIED OUT? Attribute that to whatever you like, but GOD despises the killing of the innocent. If a culture continues this practice and doesn't repent (change), that culture is doomed.

America is on that path as are the formerly Christian nations. If WE don't turn from this, we won't be here much longer God WILL replace us

Societies evolved along with people.

They didn't so much die out as they were absorbed into larger and larger societies.

And it's funny that more innocents are killed in wars that are religious in nature than any other wars.
Hamas killed some innocent Jews for religious reasons and the Jews are killing many more innocent Palestinians for religious reasons.

The fact is that societies based in secular humanism fare better than societies based in religion because secular humanism is based on reasoned argument not myth and capricious deities.

 

[buttercup]

It was "right" for them at the time since it benefitted the survival of the tribe and that was the prime concern of primitive people.

We cannot use modern sensibilities to judge the behaviors of prehistoric societies.

You think what you believe is true so it seems your truth indeed is predicated on what you believe.

You keep missing the point. This has nothing to do with when it occurred, or whether or not THEY thought it was a good thing. I'm asking you if you truly believe that just because someone (or some group) believes something is good (right, vs wrong), that automatically makes it good, in reality.

It's not a hard question. If you genuinely believe in your own position, the answer should come quickly, in a yes or no.

Use your noodle. By your logic, what Jeffrey Dahmer did was perfectly good and acceptable, simply because HE believed it was.

 

[buttercup]

No we don't. How do we "manage" the life in the deepest seas where no human has ever been? How do we "manage" the lives of all the animals in the wild?

And this planet is not the whole of creation is it?

Sigh. LOL, I'm starting to see that you're one of those who likes to argue for the sake of arguing, and nitpick things.

But to answer your question, of course we don't manage certain parts of this earth that are inaccessible, because we can't. And of course we don't directly manage every single animal out there. I was speaking in a much more general sense. Generally speaking, humans manage the animals and the physical earth.

I almost forgot how we got onto this particular sub-topic in the first place, so I went back see the string of conversation, and it was about being made in God's image.

Anyway, since you're not a believer, again I don't expect you to agree with my take on being made in God's image... but the reason I talked about it was because you said to someone else that it's "arrogant" to think that we're made in God's image.... and I was just responding to say that it's not arrogant when you look at it in the sense that we have been given the responsibility of stewarding the animals the physical earth, like God who rules over all, which means with love, kindness, justice and a genuine care and concern for their well-being.* Do you think that's a bad thing?

*this part of what I said is just my take on it, the standard christian view is different.

 

[Blues Man]

You keep missing the point. This has nothing to do with when it occurred, or whether or not THEY thought it was a good thing. I'm asking you if you truly believe that just because someone (or some group) believes something is good (right, vs wrong), that automatically makes it good, in reality.

It's not a hard question. If you genuinely believe in your own position, the answer should come quickly, in a yes or no.

Use your noodle. By your logic, what Jeffrey Dahmer did was perfectly good and acceptable, simply because HE believed it was.

It has everything to do with when and where the society existed.

Everything that we call right and wrong is based on what we have been taught is right and wrong so even your idea of right and wrong has been programed into you by the society you live in.

And it seems you're not using your "noodle" It's not the individual that determines right and wrong is it the society as a whole

You seem to be willfully ignoring the power that society has over people and the conditioning you have been subject to from literally the moment you were born

 

[Blues Man]

You keep missing the point. This has nothing to do with when it occurred, or whether or not THEY thought it was a good thing. I'm asking you if you truly believe that just because someone (or some group) believes something is good (right, vs wrong), that automatically makes it good, in reality.

It's not a hard question. If you genuinely believe in your own position, the answer should come quickly, in a yes or no.

Use your noodle. By your logic, what Jeffrey Dahmer did was perfectly good and acceptable, simply because HE believed it was.

You are asking me to judge other people in other societies present and past with the standards of the modern society I was raised in and conditioned by.

And you are way off the mark with that Dahmer shit.

 

[Blues Man]

Sigh. LOL, I'm starting to see that you're one of those who likes to argue for the sake of arguing, and nitpick things.

But to answer your question, of course we don't manage certain parts of this earth that are inaccessible, because we can't. And of course we don't directly manage every single animal out there. I was speaking in a much more general sense. Generally speaking, humans manage the animals and the physical earth.

I almost forgot how we got onto this particular sub-topic in the first place, so I went back see the string of conversation, and it was about being made in God's image.

Anyway, since you're not a believer, again I don't expect you to agree with my take on being made in God's image... but the reason I talked about it was because you said to someone else that it's "arrogant" to think that we're made in God's image.... and I was just responding to say that it's not arrogant when you look at it in the sense that we have been given the responsibility of stewarding the animals the physical earth, like God who rules over all, which means with love, kindness, justice and a genuine care and concern for their well-being.* Do you think that's a bad thing?

*this part of what I said is just my take on it, the standard christian view is different.

Hey I'm not the one that said we are in charge of managing all creation . That was all you.

And why is it when I disagree with your faith you want to say I am arguing just for the sake of arguing?

Your faith is fair game for being questioned just like any other topic

 

[Woodznutz]

1. Sin (Isaiah 59:2, Colossians 1:21)
2. Pride (Psalm 10:4, James 4:6)
3. The enemy (2 Corinthians 4:4)
4. Preoccupation with this world (1 John 2:15, Romans 1:25)

Sometimes I hear nonbelievers say things like "I would like to believe, but I just don't." So for the sake of those who say that with sincerity, I felt it would be worthwhile to point out that certain things can block people from God. Or another way to put it is, there are certain things that are blinding.

This may not be a complete list, so if you're a believer, feel free to add to this list, in case I left anything out.

Maybe they aren't being called at this time (not to worry, they will be called eventually).

 

[buttercup]

It has everything to do with when and where the society existed.

No, that's a copout to avoid answering the question you clearly don't want to answer.

First of all, the example I brought up (cannibalism) isn't something you can say "only happened in the past" because although it's rare, it still happens to this day. So I'll ask you again, is the murder / cannibalism that exists TODAY in some cultures right in reality simply because those societies believe it is? You're not defending your position very well by dancing around the question.

Everything that we call right and wrong is based on what we have been taught is right and wrong so even your idea of right and wrong has been programed into you by the society you live in.

If that were true, I'd still hold the same views I did growing up, regarding certain issues that I now have an entirely different position on. I was taught a number of things growing up that I no longer adhere to, because I have learned they were wrong.

Yes, society does influence people, of course, but you're making all sorts of wrong assumptions based on that one fact. Just because society pushes certain things doesn't mean those things are true, and it also doesn't mean that society is the source for morality itself.

And it seems you're not using your "noodle" It's not the individual that determines right and wrong is it the society as a whole

In your opinion, and that's all it is, or can be, according to relativism. This is totally off topic, but again, moral relativism is not only false, but absurd and filled with logical problems.

By your relativist 'logic', no particular society could ever be better than any other. Which means a society that promotes child prostitution is no worse than a society that teaches that children should be protected and treated with kindness, justice and dignity.

And we (or any society that believes children should be protected) have zero right to criticize or try to stop those evil practices that take place in other societies, because according to your own view, they are just as right as us or any other society.

I could go on and on giving you examples of how idiotic moral relativism is, but again, we've gotten way off topic.

You seem to be willfully ignoring the power that society has over people and the conditioning you have been subject to from literally the moment you were born

No, I'm not ignoring that at all. I just don't see it as the source, like you do. And I also see that even when people are conditioned to believe certain things, those who actually care about truth tend to examine the views and beliefs they grew up with, and seek the truth, to determine whether those views they grew up with are true, or whether the truth is something else entirely. You seem to be ignoring that many people do that, and often reject at least some of the things they were taught by society or their parents.

You are asking me to judge other people in other societies present and past with the standards of the modern society I was raised in and conditioned by.

And you are way off the mark with that Dahmer shit.

I'm not asking you to judge those societies based on what "modern society" believes. I was asking what YOU believe is the actual truth.

If a society believes that brutally torturing animals is morally right, do YOU believe that makes it right, in reality? Again, not in comparison to what the West believes, or what anyone else believes. But do YOU believe that torturing animals for no good reason could ever be morally right, in reality? Yes or no.

Hey I'm not the one that said we are in charge of managing all creation . That was all you.

And why is it when I disagree with your faith you want to say I am arguing just for the sake of arguing?

Your faith is fair game for being questioned just like any other topic

You're adding to my words. I didn't say we were in charge of "all" creation. I said we were put in charge of the REST of creation (meaning the animals and the physical earth.)

And it's not because you disagree with my faith that I said you seem like the type who likes to argue for the sake of arguing. It was because you were getting very pedantic and either missing or evading the point.

And of course my faith is fair game, that doesn't change that you were dancing around questions and not giving straight answers but instead of nitpicking words and deflecting.