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"These Are The Lies You Were Taught About Electricity"

OP
Grumblenuts

Grumblenuts

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my bad for trying to enlighten you Grumbly one
Then I'm sorry you've been failing so miserably.
one can ring up the 'power grid' 6 ways to Sunday, pictures if you'd like...... why do you need MY words when google is your friend?
Because this is discussion forum, not just a place for waving at nothing in particular. If you can't stand anything on YouTube, that's you're prerogative, but its instructional videos alone have been saving me hundreds of dollars a year. I think you're shortchanging yourself.
you mean the Utube?
No, I said Veritasium because I meant Veritasium.
because the vast majority of them are woefully misleading
I largely posted this topic because Veritasium was being refreshingly anti-establishment in this video.
I don't .
Perhaps I've overreacted to your seeming agreement with Donald H. You really haven't contributed anything here other than snide comments. But I did ask for comments, it's true ;)
If you want to discuss electron theory , be it modern, proposed, or free, the sources are many, pick yer poison

~S~
I picked this subject and am still waiting for you to contribute something potentially useful and coherent..
 

ding

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I've watched you in a number of topics here over the years from physics to weather to climate to religion. You are usually more on point and have a better grasp of the truth than most here. You're obviously smarter than many people here. I guess the petroleum industry doesn't hire dummies. :SMILEW~130:
There's nothing special about me. I follow a process. But yeah, I did work with a bunch of smart dudes. It's like playing chess against a better opponent. It forces you to elevate your game.
 
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Grumblenuts

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Still no one interested in my mention of wave guides it seems..
Actually, no. I'm winging this. I took a couple of electrical engineering courses in college but that was 37 years ago. I'm a retired petroleum engineer. I was just happy to pass those courses. I only know enough to be dangerous. I only chimed in when it looked like they were trying to argue we could do away with the power grid.
You were clearly winging it, but your responses here have at least been topical and somewhat challenging which is refreshing compared to most.

For sparky, one of ding's posts contains several images used for illustration within the OP Veritasium video. Perhaps you could also use them now to contribute something substantive instead of just ignoring my questions and trolling my thread.
2. Noise. Reception is weakened and you hear a buzz because electricity is carried on the outside of the wires.
I'll take Door #2. Coaxial cables are designed to maximize the "electricity" or the energy flow through the plastic so-called inner "insulation" between the so-called "conductor" and the braided "shield" or "ground."
networking-coaixal_cable_01.jpg

"A Perfect Conductor is a Perfect Obstructer, but does not absorb the Energy of the Electromagnetic Field" - Oliver Heaviside.
If that were true, then anything could be used to flow the current to its destination.

Right?
Not exactly anything. It's the charge and current within the wire that creates the electric and magnetic field outside the conductor of the wires. So I am afraid that anything of any distance would require wires. If you take away the distance then yes, anything which generates an electromagnetic field should work.
You sure? I mean the electromagnetic spectrum is pretty darn vast. How about lightning? Cathode ray tubes? Fluorescent bulbs? Solar flares? ...
7138996325_6c3d4ac87a_b.jpg

140708-N-ZK869-003.jpg

^Laser cannon
Any wires hidden within your car's battery?
 
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sparky

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For sparky, one of ding's posts contains several images used for illustration within the OP Veritasium video. Perhaps you could also use them now to contribute something substantive instead of just ignoring my questions and trolling my thread.
Those pix describe EMF , prior pix describe skin effect ,basically the physics behind EMF. So....if you goal is 'no wire' between your home & poco, you'd be right, if you believe you're being ripped off due to this, you're wrong

Personally, I see Dr. Derek Muller's description of this, as well as electron theory as all rather misleading

He leans more towards conspirator theories , than that of science

This, fwiw, was all said/done a century ago........

1638097903605.png

No one is lying, no one is ripping us off, and any 'cost saving' widgets marketed on that premise are usually outed as snake oil, and/or a hazard Grumbly one

~S~
 

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Just to reiterate, he's claiming that electrical energy does not flow through wires. Whether AC or DC, the work gets accomplished all around the wires and in between, entirely through field interactions, and not through any movement of particulate "electrons."

Comments?
I thought electrons were fields?
 

ding

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Still no one interested in my mention of wave guides it seems..

You were clearly winging it, but your responses here have at least been topical and somewhat challenging which is refreshing compared to most.

For sparky, one of ding's posts contains several images used for illustration within the OP Veritasium video. Perhaps you could also use them now to contribute something substantive instead of just ignoring my questions and trolling my thread.

I'll take Door #2. Coaxial cables are designed to maximize the "electricity" or the energy flow through the plastic so-called inner "insulation" between the so-called "conductor" and the braided "shield" or "ground."
networking-coaixal_cable_01.jpg

"A Perfect Conductor is a Perfect Obstructer, but does not absorb the Energy of the Electromagnetic Field" - Oliver Heaviside.


You sure? I mean the electromagnetic spectrum is pretty darn vast. How about lightning? Cathode ray tubes? Fluorescent bulbs? Solar flares? ...
7138996325_6c3d4ac87a_b.jpg

140708-N-ZK869-003.jpg

^Laser cannon
Any wires hidden within your car's battery?
You really know how to make friends. :rolleyes:
 
OP
Grumblenuts

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Those pix describe EMF , prior pix describe skin effect ,basically the physics behind EMF. So....if you goal is 'no wire' between your home & poco, you'd be right, if you believe you're being ripped off due to this, you're wrong

Personally, I see Dr. Derek Muller's description of this, as well as electron theory as all rather misleading

He leans more towards conspirator theories , than that of science

This, fwiw, was all said/done a century ago........

View attachment 569288
No one is lying, no one is ripping us off, and any 'cost saving' widgets marketed on that premise are usually outed as snake oil, and/or a hazard Grumbly one

~S~
Thanks for clarifying. I'd agree that Derek should have been more specific about what exactly he meant by "Lies." Otoh, he's the one with the communications degree and awards, so maybe we're the idiots. You can only hold someone's hand for so long before it just becomes a pointless dragging operation.

I'll be clear now. This is not simply about house wiring or our electrical grid. Electricity is involved at all frequencies including zero. It drives life, the universe. Several comments here stressing "E.M.F." as though that somehow clarified some sort of misconception. The term "E.M.F." got replaced with "voltage" long ago and no one has any problem with that now, FAICT. Voltage is just the instantaneous electrical field pressure or potential difference causing electrical current or flow.

So what is Derek actually referring to when he says "Lies"? Powerful term. Clearly very triggering. I believe I can provide an excellent example shortly, but first I feel obliged to repeat what I said to begin with which you've still failed to address straightforwardly:

I commend him for at least lamely attacking how this area of physics is so poorly taught or glossed over as the case may be. Just to reiterate, he's claiming that electrical energy does not flow through wires. Whether AC or DC, the work gets accomplished all around the wires and in between, entirely through field interactions, and not through any movement of particulate "electrons."

Comments concerning the bolded bits are topical and appreciated. Neither Derek nor I suggested "being ripped off" or victims of a conspiracy so that "misleading" straw remains piled upon its source, you. Okay, here's my example..
Example of voltage in a simple direct current (dc) circuit:

What is voltage? - Header

  1. In this dc circuit, the switch is closed (turned ON).
  2. Voltage in the power source—the "potential difference" between the battery's two poles—is activated, creating pressure that forces electrons to flow as current out the battery's negative terminal.
  3. Current reaches the light, causing it to glow.
  4. Current returns to the power source.
Now where's the big "Lie," you ask? Great question.

"that forces electrons to flow"

That's the "poorly taught" part and I didn't find Derek (aka Veritasium) unclear or misleading in that regard. To the contrary, he indicates (correctly) that electricity does not involve "electrons flowing" along a wire or anywhere necessarily for that matter. Me --> Firstly, because the entire notion of particulate "electrons" is concocted bullshit to begin with, but also because this "movement" or "current" need only be described as exchanges of electrical charge. Including the Aether would help, but Derek doesn't go there. He's normally completely in line with status quo modern physics and that's my usual problem with him.
 
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ding

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Oh, you poor victim. Don't worry, I still have you on ignore ;)
I'm doing great. Based upon on all the lashing out you are doing in this thread, it's you who must feel like he's a victim.
 

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or he's Nikola Tesla's illegitimate spawn.......

~S~
Edison and investors could make a buck. A lot of bucks. Tesla would have had much lower cost electricity if it worked.
 

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Now where's the big "Lie," you ask? Great question.

"that forces electrons to flow"

That's the "poorly taught" part and I didn't find Derek (aka Veritasium) unclear or misleading in that regard. To the contrary, he indicates (correctly) that electricity does not involve "electrons flowing" along a wire or anywhere necessarily for that matter. Me --> Firstly, because the entire notion of particulate "electrons" is concocted bullshit to begin with, but also because this "movement" or "current" need only be described as exchanges of electrical charge. Including the Aether would help, but Derek doesn't go there. He's normally completely in line with status quo modern physics and that's my usual problem with him.
Seems Aether is merely capacitive coupling Grumbles....

~S~
 
OP
Grumblenuts

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Seems Aether is merely capacitive coupling Grumbles....

~S~
Not to me. I linked to the following above, but it's really hard to read on the site. So, other than the few images and formulas, which I couldn't transcribe with my text editor, here is Eric Dollard explaining what really happens (short intro by someone named "Tech Zombie"):

______________

The Fallacy of Conductors and Proof of the Aether By Eric Dollard
aetherforce.com/the-fallacy-of-conductors-and-proof-of-the-aether-by-eric-dollard/

Professor Eric Dollard has spoken out strongly against one of the biggest misconceptions of electricity, that electricity flows through wires. It does not, more like the exact opposite. Benjamin Franklin said the same thing and this truth is proven in the following experiment by MIT - YouTube link -

The perpetual motion holder magnet design of Edward Leedskalnin also proves this -
When one puts the following together one begins to realize that electricity actually flows in the space around wires, in the aetherous space, not in the actual metal of the wires themselves, which in reality reflect and repel magnetism. This amazing realization is further proof of the existence of the Aether. As Scientists we must think critically on how such a massive deception could continue for over a hundred years....

———————

The Fallacy of Conductors

When electro-magnetic energy is conveyed from one point in space to another point in space a closed loop is required to connect the point of generation with the point of utilization. This closed loop is called the electric circuit and consists of a boundary formed by what have become known as electric conductors. This boundary encloses a definite quantity of space.

When electro-magnetic energy flows through the space enclosed by the electric circuit phenomena take place inside the circuit material as well as the space outside this material.

(image)

Within the circuit conductor material, during the passage of electro-magnetic energy,this energy is continuously being consumed within the molecular space and converted into thermo-dynamic energy (heat). This may be represented by the passing electro-magnetic wave dragging into the electric circuit material. This drag is analogous to frictional losses and is called the resistance of the electric circuit, R.

In the space outside the circuit conductor material, during the passage of electro-magnetic energy, a condition of aetheric stress exists, which is called the electric field of the electric circuit. The energy contained by the electric field is continuously being transferred through this space from the point of generation which supplies energy to the electric field to the point of utilization which abstracts energy from the electric field.

The electric field of the circuit exerts physical magnetic and dielectric actions. The magnetic action is orientated parallel to the surface of the conductor material (in its immediate vicinity). That is, a needle shaped magnetic body tends to set itself in a direction parallel to the surface of the conductor material.

The dielectric action is orientated perpendicular to the surface of the conductor material (in its immediate vicinity). That is, a needle shaped dielectric body tends to set itself in a direction perpendicular to the surface of the conductor material. Thus, the electric field of the circuit, over which passes the flow of electro-magnetic energy, has three fundamental axes which are at right angles with each other:

The dielectric axis, perpendicular to the conductor surface,

The magnetic axis, parallel to the conductor surface,

The electro-magnetic axis, co-axial with the direction of the electric circuit.

The space outside of the conductor material, bounded by the electric circuit, has the property of propagating a wavefront of light at a definite velocity, C. This velocity is a characteristic property of the aether in which the electric circuit exists. The inverse square of this velocity is called the capacitance of the electric circuit.

(formula) Farads

The capacitance is a measure of the ability to store energy in the dielectric field of induction, of the electric circuit.

The quantity of space enclosed by the bounding electric circuit is proportional to thetotal length of the electric circuit, l1, multiplied by the distance between the bounding conductors, l2,

(formula) centimetre^2

and has the dimensions of an area. This area in square centimetres defines what is called the inductance of the electric circuit.

(formula) Henrys

The inductance is a measure of the ability to store energy in the magnetic field of induction of the electric circuit.

Together, the capacitance and the inductance representing the dielectric and magnetic fields of induction of the electric circuit, serve as a measure of the propagation characteristics of the electric circuit for the transmission of electro-magnetic energy.

(formula) : natural period
(formula) : natural impedance

The popular conception of electro-magnetic energy transmission as it exists today is; energy is transmitted through the interior of the conductor material, that is, electricity flows through wires like water flows through pipes. This transmission is said to involve the flow of charged sub-atomic particles called electrons.

According to this theory the materials possessing the most “free electrons” serve asthe best conductors of electro-magnetic energy. Conversely, the materials possessing the least “free electrons” serve as the poorest conductors of electro-magnetic energy. These materials are called insulators. Insulators are said to block the passage of electricity.

The conclusion drawn is that electricity is the flow of electrons and that the space outside of the conductor material is empty and dead. It follows that a superconductor is that material which offers no opposition to the flow of electrons and hence no opposition to the flow of electricity. Conversely, free space devoid of matter offers total opposition to the flow of electricity. Nothing could be further from the truth, yet this is the concept of electricity propounded by the scientist of today.

The real actions of the conducting material presents itself when it is in the so-called superconducting state. If a section of a superconducting material is suspended in space, free to move, and a magnetic field of induction is made to approach this material, it is found that the material is repelled by the approach of the field. If the material is indeed superconducting it will maintain a definite distance, l, for an indefinite period of time t -> infinity, from the source of magnetic induction. Any tendency for the material to sink into the magnetic field, l -> 0, indicates the material is not perfectly superconducting but has a finite resistance R.

It may be concluded that the so-called conducting material does not so much conduct as it does repel or reflect magnetism, or electro-magnetic energy in general.

If an electric circuit is conveying electro-magnetic energy as previously discussed it is found that a force or pressure is exerted upon the circuit material. This pressure tends to repel opposing parts of the circuit material and cause the circuit to expand. The quantity of this pressure in the space bounded by the circuit is called the magneto-motive force of the circuit.

It can therefore be seen that the conducting materials serve as the walls of a container holding magnetic pressure. If the conducting material is in the so-called superconducting state and the ends of the circuit are shorted the electric circuit willhold this magneto-motive pressure indefinitely, in analogy with compressed air stored in a tank. In order for this to be the result of electron flow requires that this flow be in perpetual motion, an unlikely proposition.

It may be concluded that materials called electric conductors might best be called electric obstructors and serve not to conduct electro-magnetism but serve to reflect it back on itself. The flow of electro-magnetism is conducted by the aethereous space bound by the obstructing material.

The character of this aethereous space is represented by its inductance L and its capacitance C. Since pure space is considered a perfect insulator by atomic theory, is it not ironic that it offers the least resistance to the flow of electro-magnetism? It is then the insulators that are the true conductors of electricity.
_________________

Now, unlike Veritasium, that all makes perfect sense because Eric is the shizzle with the fizzle!
 
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ding

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Not to me. I linked to the following above, but it's really hard to read on the site. So, other than the few images and formulas, which I couldn't transcribe with my text editor, here is Eric Dollard explaining what really happens (short intro by someone named "Tech Zombie"):

______________

The Fallacy of Conductors and Proof of the Aether By Eric Dollard
aetherforce.com/the-fallacy-of-conductors-and-proof-of-the-aether-by-eric-dollard/

Professor Eric Dollard has spoken out strongly against one of the biggest misconceptions of electricity, that electricity flows through wires. It does not, more like the exact opposite. Benjamin Franklin said the same thing and this truth is proven in the following experiment by MIT - YouTube link -

The perpetual motion holder magnet design of Edward Leedskalnin also proves this -
When one puts the following together one begins to realize that electricity actually flows in the space around wires, in the aetherous space, not in the actual metal of the wires themselves, which in reality reflect and repel magnetism. This amazing realization is further proof of the existence of the Aether. As Scientists we must think critically on how such a massive deception could continue for over a hundred years....

———————

The Fallacy of Conductors

When electro-magnetic energy is conveyed from one point in space to another point in space a closed loop is required to connect the point of generation with the point of utilization. This closed loop is called the electric circuit and consists of a boundary formed by what have become known as electric conductors. This boundary encloses a definite quantity of space.

When electro-magnetic energy flows through the space enclosed by the electric circuit phenomena take place inside the circuit material as well as the space outside this material.

(image)

Within the circuit conductor material, during the passage of electro-magnetic energy,this energy is continuously being consumed within the molecular space and converted into thermo-dynamic energy (heat). This may be represented by the passing electro-magnetic wave dragging into the electric circuit material. This drag is analogous to frictional losses and is called the resistance of the electric circuit, R.

In the space outside the circuit conductor material, during the passage of electro-magnetic energy, a condition of aetheric stress exists, which is called the electric field of the electric circuit. The energy contained by the electric field is continuously being transferred through this space from the point of generation which supplies energy to the electric field to the point of utilization which abstracts energy from the electric field.

The electric field of the circuit exerts physical magnetic and dielectric actions. The magnetic action is orientated parallel to the surface of the conductor material (in its immediate vicinity). That is, a needle shaped magnetic body tends to set itself in a direction parallel to the surface of the conductor material.

The dielectric action is orientated perpendicular to the surface of the conductor material (in its immediate vicinity). That is, a needle shaped dielectric body tends to set itself in a direction perpendicular to the surface of the conductor material. Thus, the electric field of the circuit, over which passes the flow of electro-magnetic energy, has three fundamental axes which are at right angles with each other:

The dielectric axis, perpendicular to the conductor surface,

The magnetic axis, parallel to the conductor surface,

The electro-magnetic axis, co-axial with the direction of the electric circuit.

The space outside of the conductor material, bounded by the electric circuit, has the property of propagating a wavefront of light at a definite velocity, C. This velocity is a characteristic property of the aether in which the electric circuit exists. The inverse square of this velocity is called the capacitance of the electric circuit.

(formula) Farads

The capacitance is a measure of the ability to store energy in the dielectric field of induction, of the electric circuit.

The quantity of space enclosed by the bounding electric circuit is proportional to thetotal length of the electric circuit, l1, multiplied by the distance between the bounding conductors, l2,

(formula) centimetre^2

and has the dimensions of an area. This area in square centimetres defines what is called the inductance of the electric circuit.

(formula) Henrys

The inductance is a measure of the ability to store energy in the magnetic field of induction of the electric circuit.

Together, the capacitance and the inductance representing the dielectric and magnetic fields of induction of the electric circuit, serve as a measure of the propagation characteristics of the electric circuit for the transmission of electro-magnetic energy.

(formula) : natural period
(formula) : natural impedance

The popular conception of electro-magnetic energy transmission as it exists today is; energy is transmitted through the interior of the conductor material, that is, electricity flows through wires like water flows through pipes. This transmission is said to involve the flow of charged sub-atomic particles called electrons.

According to this theory the materials possessing the most “free electrons” serve asthe best conductors of electro-magnetic energy. Conversely, the materials possessing the least “free electrons” serve as the poorest conductors of electro-magnetic energy. These materials are called insulators. Insulators are said to block the passage of electricity.

The conclusion drawn is that electricity is the flow of electrons and that the space outside of the conductor material is empty and dead. It follows that a superconductor is that material which offers no opposition to the flow of electrons and hence no opposition to the flow of electricity. Conversely, free space devoid of matter offers total opposition to the flow of electricity. Nothing could be further from the truth, yet this is the concept of electricity propounded by the scientist of today.

The real actions of the conducting material presents itself when it is in the so-called superconducting state. If a section of a superconducting material is suspended in space, free to move, and a magnetic field of induction is made to approach this material, it is found that the material is repelled by the approach of the field. If the material is indeed superconducting it will maintain a definite distance, l, for an indefinite period of time t -> infinity, from the source of magnetic induction. Any tendency for the material to sink into the magnetic field, l -> 0, indicates the material is not perfectly superconducting but has a finite resistance R.

It may be concluded that the so-called conducting material does not so much conduct as it does repel or reflect magnetism, or electro-magnetic energy in general.

If an electric circuit is conveying electro-magnetic energy as previously discussed it is found that a force or pressure is exerted upon the circuit material. This pressure tends to repel opposing parts of the circuit material and cause the circuit to expand. The quantity of this pressure in the space bounded by the circuit is called the magneto-motive force of the circuit.

It can therefore be seen that the conducting materials serve as the walls of a container holding magnetic pressure. If the conducting material is in the so-called superconducting state and the ends of the circuit are shorted the electric circuit willhold this magneto-motive pressure indefinitely, in analogy with compressed air stored in a tank. In order for this to be the result of electron flow requires that this flow be in perpetual motion, an unlikely proposition.

It may be concluded that materials called electric conductors might best be called electric obstructors and serve not to conduct electro-magnetism but serve to reflect it back on itself. The flow of electro-magnetism is conducted by the aethereous space bound by the obstructing material.

The character of this aethereous space is represented by its inductance L and its capacitance C. Since pure space is considered a perfect insulator by atomic theory, is it not ironic that it offers the least resistance to the flow of electro-magnetism? It is then the insulators that are the true conductors of electricity.
_________________

Now, unlike Veritasium, that all makes perfect sense because Eric is the shizzle with the fizzle!
Not sure how electricity flowing in the space around wires is proof of the existence of the Aether. It's proof that the current is flowing along the surface of wires and not within the wires.
 
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ding

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Earlier I wrote that:

"The surface charges in the wires create a small electric field inside the wires. The charge on the surface of the conductors creates an electric field outside the conductors of the wires. The current inside the wires creates a magnetic field outside the conductors of the wires."​

Which is verbatim from the video in the OP. So correcting that for post #57 we get:

"The surface charges around the wires within the conductor creates a small electric field around the wires within the conductor. The charge on the surface of the conductors creates an electric field outside the conductors of the wires. The current flowing on the surface of the wires creates a magnetic field outside the conductors of the wires."​

So if anything all this proves is that electric current flows on the surface of the wires which makes perfect sense as that is the path of least resistance and that the video in the OP misstated that the charges are in the wires as opposed to the surface of the wires. As for the aether, current flowing on the surface of wires doesn't prove the aether exists, it proves that electricity flows on the surface of wires which is the path of least resistance.
 

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