There is no radical Islam without Islam; however, there is no Islam without radical Islam.

[Vigilante]

OOOPS!

 

[aris2chat]

there are 80 some muslim based terror groups.

There are 1,600,000,000 Muslims.

and 3 major and 70 other sects

And how many of those 3 major groups or the other 70 sects are actually supporting the terrorists? I;m not asking about some people from those groups, but the entire groups. How many of them are participants in terrorism? I'll need some proof for the number you claim.

the three major and at least 10 others

some of the other sects are rather isolated and obscure, many are considered heretics to the majority of muslims

Some proof to back that up? Sorry, but your statement isn't proof.

Fathi, Hafizi, Nizari, Fiver, Sevener, Twelver, Sufi, Wahabi and Zaydi all have sponsored terror groups. IMHO the Alawite have as well

 

[Rustic]

How is that different from saying there is no Christianity without Westborough Baptist Church? They have bible verses to support each and every hateful belief that they have. Christians accept the same Bible that Westborough does. Just because some people use their own religious teachings in out of context or inappropriate ways for modern life doesn't mean all believers of that faith do.

Christians do not define Christianity.
Muslims define Islam

Of course Christians define Christianity. What planet are you from?

Are you special kind of stupid? Christ defines Christianity. Dolt
Lol

 

[Rustic]

How is that different from saying there is no Christianity without Westborough Baptist Church? They have bible verses to support each and every hateful belief that they have. Christians accept the same Bible that Westborough does. Just because some people use their own religious teachings in out of context or inappropriate ways for modern life doesn't mean all believers of that faith do.

Christians do not define Christianity.
Muslims define Islam

As if on cue, a hateful bigot incapable of rational thought.

It's the truth...
Islam is the most violent cult the world has ever seen.
CRIMES OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD

Muslims are sanctified by the blood of murdered kafirs. If the prophet of Islam, Mohammed, was alive today he would be sitting on death row somewhere waiting for his execution.

What is important to understand is that none of these depraved and criminal acts are seen as crimes to Muslims, except if they are committed by someone else. They are all holy, divine acts that their own prophet indulged in and therefore they have been given the stamp of validation as the moral code to be emulated by all Muslim men. They are all Sunna [The traditional portion of Muslim law based on Muhammad’s words or acts, accepted (together with the Koran) as authoritative by Muslims].

• Molested his wife – six-year-old Baby Aisha. One of Baby Aisha’s wifely duties was to clean semen stains from the prophet’s clothes. The prophet would take a bath with Baby Aisha and ‘thigh’ with Baby Aisha, meaning she was too small to be penetrated so he would take his penis and rub it up and down her thighs and against her vagina. Being a man of ‘mercy’ he did not penetrate Baby Aisha until she was nine.

• Raped Baby Aisha when she was nine (texts have altered her age when Muslims could not explain why their prophet married and consummated the marriage with a small child. Koranic texts makes it clear that Mohammed married her when she was six years old. For a marriage to be legally deemed valid it had to be sexually consummated. The Hadith clearly proves that Mohammed was a notorious pedophile). Advocated sex with baby girls.

• Raped a retarded woman. Murdered a woman. Had sex with his dead aunt.

• Captured women and raped them. Kept women as sex slaves. Muhammad had sex with 61 women: many he raped. There is no consensual sex between a child girl and a man. There is no consensual sex between a master and his sex slave. There is no consensual sex between a woman conquered in war and her husband conqueror. All such sexual acts are rape. RAPE IS RAPE.

• Had eleven wives at one time. Sexually abused his wives. Raped his wives. Forced sex during their menstruation including Baby Aisha. Mentally abused his wives. Can you imagine taking a child (or any aged woman) and molesting with your hand/fist her menstruating vagina?

• Beheaded his enemies. 600/900 Jewish men at one massacre. Had Jewish boys as young as 13 years old beheaded after pulling down their pants and inspecting groin for pubic hair.

• Ordered the murder, torture, terrorization of Christians and Jews if they did not convert to Islam. Forced Christians and Jews from Saudi Arabia (the mass exile).

• Assassinated people for insulting him or Islam. Established totalitarian rule. Had followers and their families burnt alive in their homes for missing prayer.

• Ordered the extermination, torture and terrorization of kafirs. Instigated 60 massacres and personally participated in 27 of them.

• Owned and sold slaves. Enslaved women and children.

• Called his black slaves pug noses and compared them to Satan.

• Treated his black slaves as beasts of burden.

• Lied and cheated. Mohammed encouraged his men to lie to deceive someone in order to get what he wanted.

• Caused division and hatred. Ordered no befriending with Christians and Jews.

• Subjugated and oppressed Muslim women. Required them to cover their faces.

• Married his daughter–in–law.

• Approved prostitution.

• Encouraged the rape of women in front of their husbands.

• Recommended wife beating. Hit his wife – Baby Aisha.

• Murdered prisoners of war. Committed acts of terror.

• Advocated suicide attacks.

• Executed apostates and homosexuals.

• Beat children who didn’t pray. Abolished adoption.

• Honor killings of Muslim women and children.

• Beat alcoholics. Lied.

• Stoned adulators to death. Stoned a woman to death after she had given birth.

• Ordered thief’s hands/feet chopped off.

• Tortured a man out of greed.

• Looted and plundered.

• Preached hate for people of other religions.

• Extorted money from other religions

• Forced conversions to Islam

• Allowed his companions to execute, behead, rape and enslave.

.

References to prophet Mohammed’s crimes:

Hat tip to our reader Craig for the due diligence in providing the references to these claims.

— Muhammad’s marriage to 6yr old Aisha-(Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234 and 236).

— Aisha cleans Muhammad’s semen stains-(Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 4, Number 229-233),

— Muhammad fondling Aisha during her ‘Menses’- (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 298-300, Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 1, Number 0270)

— Muhammad liked to have intercourse with Aisha and his other wives when they were menstruating (Sahih Muslim, Book 003, Number 0577-0579),

— He also loved to recite the Quran when his wives were in Menses while lying between their legs!-(Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 296), (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 639)

— Muhammad married his adopted Son’s wife called ‘Zaynab’ after lusting for her and then banned Adoption in Islam- (Surah 33:37,Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 305, Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3330, Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 516,The History of Al-Tabari: The Victory of Islam, translated by Michael Fishbein, 1997], Volume VIII, pp. 2-3)

— Muhammad having sex with his dead Aunt in the Grave-( “Kanz Al Umal” (The Treasure of the Workers, by Ali Ibn Husam Aldin, commonly known as Al-Mutaki Al-Hindi. He based his book on the hadiths and sayings listed in “Al-Jami Al-Saghir,” written by Jalal ul-Din Al-Suyuti.)

— ‘I (Muhammad) put on her my shirt that she may wear the clothes of heaven, and I slept with her in her coffin (grave) that I may lessen the pressure of the grave. She was the best of Allah’s creatures to me after Abu Talib’… The prophet was referring to Fatima , the mother of Ali. “The Arabic word used here for slept is “Id’tajat,” and literally means “lay down” with her. It is often used to mean, “Lay down to have sex.”

— Muhammad and the Quran sanctioned sex with your wives and ‘married’ slave girls-(Quran – 70:22-30, 23:5,6, 4:24, 33:50), — Muhammad speaks of sex with Slave Girls- (Sahih Bukhari – Volume 3, #432, Volume 9, #506, Volume 5, #637, Sahih Muslim, Volume 2, #3371)

— Muhammad disagreed with ‘coitus interruptus’ with slave girls- he supported RAPE.

— Muhammad forces a 17 yr old Jewish girl called Safiyyah to marry him and rapes her on the same day her husband and family are killed in the battle of Khaibar (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 522, Volume 1, Book 8, Number 367).

— Al Tabari reported in his (‘The History of al-Tabari: The Victory of Islam’, Translated by Michael Fishbein) that even some of Muhammad’s wives and companions were shocked that he forced Safiyyah to marry him after beheading her husband, brother and father.

There can be just as impressive and violent a list made from stories in the Bible, and Christian history.

Not of Jesus's teachings. Dip shit

 

[BULLDOG]

There are 1,600,000,000 Muslims.

and 3 major and 70 other sects

And how many of those 3 major groups or the other 70 sects are actually supporting the terrorists? I;m not asking about some people from those groups, but the entire groups. How many of them are participants in terrorism? I'll need some proof for the number you claim.

the three major and at least 10 others

some of the other sects are rather isolated and obscure, many are considered heretics to the majority of muslims

Some proof to back that up? Sorry, but your statement isn't proof.

Fathi, Hafizi, Nizari, Fiver, Sevener, Twelver, Sufi, Wahabi and Zaydi all have sponsored terror groups. IMHO the Alawite have as well

Again,do you have something to show that all those groups have supported terror groups? Not just a few members, but each entire sect, as a whole?

 

[BULLDOG]

How is that different from saying there is no Christianity without Westborough Baptist Church? They have bible verses to support each and every hateful belief that they have. Christians accept the same Bible that Westborough does. Just because some people use their own religious teachings in out of context or inappropriate ways for modern life doesn't mean all believers of that faith do.

Christians do not define Christianity.
Muslims define Islam

Of course Christians define Christianity. What planet are you from?

Are you special kind of stupid? Christ defines Christianity. Dolt
Lol

Really? Then why are all those so called Christians upset about gay marriage, when Jesus never said a word about it? Actually it is based more on what Christians think about what Paul said than they do about what Jesus said. Most of the things they whine about came from Paul and not Jesus.

 

[Rustic]

How is that different from saying there is no Christianity without Westborough Baptist Church? They have bible verses to support each and every hateful belief that they have. Christians accept the same Bible that Westborough does. Just because some people use their own religious teachings in out of context or inappropriate ways for modern life doesn't mean all believers of that faith do.

Christians do not define Christianity.
Muslims define Islam

Of course Christians define Christianity. What planet are you from?

Are you special kind of stupid? Christ defines Christianity. Dolt
Lol

Really? Then why are all those so called Christians upset about gay marriage, when Jesus never said a word about it? Actually it is based more on what Christians think about what Paul said than they do about what Jesus said. Most of the things they whine about came from Paul and not Jesus.

The only Inspired word of God...

 

[BULLDOG]

How is that different from saying there is no Christianity without Westborough Baptist Church? They have bible verses to support each and every hateful belief that they have. Christians accept the same Bible that Westborough does. Just because some people use their own religious teachings in out of context or inappropriate ways for modern life doesn't mean all believers of that faith do.

Christians do not define Christianity.
Muslims define Islam

Of course Christians define Christianity. What planet are you from?

Are you special kind of stupid? Christ defines Christianity. Dolt
Lol

Really? Then why are all those so called Christians upset about gay marriage, when Jesus never said a word about it? Actually it is based more on what Christians think about what Paul said than they do about what Jesus said. Most of the things they whine about came from Paul and not Jesus.

The only Inspired word of God...

Written by people who never met Jesus, under names that weren't theirs and voted on by a committee whose goal was to put together a book that matched the Kings beliefs.

 

[aris2chat]

and 3 major and 70 other sects

And how many of those 3 major groups or the other 70 sects are actually supporting the terrorists? I;m not asking about some people from those groups, but the entire groups. How many of them are participants in terrorism? I'll need some proof for the number you claim.

the three major and at least 10 others

some of the other sects are rather isolated and obscure, many are considered heretics to the majority of muslims

Some proof to back that up? Sorry, but your statement isn't proof.

Fathi, Hafizi, Nizari, Fiver, Sevener, Twelver, Sufi, Wahabi and Zaydi all have sponsored terror groups. IMHO the Alawite have as well

Again,do you have something to show that all those groups have supported terror groups? Not just a few members, but each entire sect, as a whole?

you want details and statistics, go to your local library

"Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25Far be it from you to do such a thing -- to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

26The LORD said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake."

27Then Abraham spoke up again: "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the LORD, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city because of five people?"

"If I find forty-five there," he said, "I will not destroy it."

29Once again he spoke to him, "What if only forty are found there?"

He said, "For the sake of forty, I will not do it."

30Then he said, "May the LORD not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?"

He answered, "I will not do it if I find thirty there."

31Abraham said, "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the LORD, what if only twenty can be found there?"

He said, "For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it."

32Then he said, "May the LORD not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?"

He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it."

33When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home. <<

 

[garion13a5]

How is that different from saying there is no Christianity without Westborough Baptist Church? They have bible verses to support each and every hateful belief that they have. Christians accept the same Bible that Westborough does. Just because some people use their own religious teachings in out of context or inappropriate ways for modern life doesn't mean all believers of that faith do.

Hello,

I think you need to go back and re-read the post in order to understand it. Christianity, while very aggressive in the past, is not so now. Many countries, like Canada, with large Christian population have no history of religious violence. They do however, have a problem with Muslim extremism. Christianity can exist without radicalism, Islam cannot.

garion13a5

 

[BULLDOG]

How is that different from saying there is no Christianity without Westborough Baptist Church? They have bible verses to support each and every hateful belief that they have. Christians accept the same Bible that Westborough does. Just because some people use their own religious teachings in out of context or inappropriate ways for modern life doesn't mean all believers of that faith do.

Hello,

I think you need to go back and re-read the post in order to understand it. Christianity, while very aggressive in the past, is not so now. Many countries, like Canada, with large Christian population have no history of religious violence. They do however, have a problem with Muslim extremism. Christianity can exist without radicalism, Islam cannot.

garion13a5

Large areas of Muslim population also oppose religious violence. Muslims are the main victims of that violence. Extremism is something we all have to fight, and it is stupid to antagonize the ones we need to help in that. Why do you want to supply terrorists with propaganda to convince the non violent victims in the mid east that we are their enemy, and that we are causing all their suffering?

 

[garion13a5]

How is that different from saying there is no Christianity without Westborough Baptist Church? They have bible verses to support each and every hateful belief that they have. Christians accept the same Bible that Westborough does. Just because some people use their own religious teachings in out of context or inappropriate ways for modern life doesn't mean all believers of that faith do.

Hello,

I think you need to go back and re-read the post in order to understand it. Christianity, while very aggressive in the past, is not so now. Many countries, like Canada, with large Christian population have no history of religious violence. They do however, have a problem with Muslim extremism. Christianity can exist without radicalism, Islam cannot.

garion13a5

Large areas of Muslim population also oppose religious violence. Muslims are the main victims of that violence. Extremism is something we all have to fight, and it is stupid to antagonize the ones we need to help in that. Why do you want to supply terrorists with propaganda to convince the non violent victims in the mid east that we are their enemy, and that we are causing all their suffering?

Hello,

The problem is that Islam approves of violence against non-Muslims who have not submitted to Islam. Considering that the majority of Muslims support Sharia Law, this means they approve of violence against people that do not adhere to their faith. In a liberal society where we respect the rights of homosexuals, this is problematic as a large percentage of Muslims approve of killing gays. In a society where we hold free speech as being a fundamental human right, most Muslims believe people who question or mock Islam should be killed.

By failing to hold Islam to a civilized standard, we are enabling those who would oppressive us. In the West we need to be able to stand up and freely point out the flaws in Islam and admit that it is not compatible with Western liberal values. Hiding from the truth for fear of antagonizing the intolerant is not strategic; it is cowardice. We should limit Muslim immigration until if and when their faith becomes compatible with the West.

garion13a5

 

[Mac1958]

The Regressive Left and Islam -- What is happening here?

 

[Rustic]

How is that different from saying there is no Christianity without Westborough Baptist Church? They have bible verses to support each and every hateful belief that they have. Christians accept the same Bible that Westborough does. Just because some people use their own religious teachings in out of context or inappropriate ways for modern life doesn't mean all believers of that faith do.

Hello,

I think you need to go back and re-read the post in order to understand it. Christianity, while very aggressive in the past, is not so now. Many countries, like Canada, with large Christian population have no history of religious violence. They do however, have a problem with Muslim extremism. Christianity can exist without radicalism, Islam cannot.

garion13a5

Large areas of Muslim population also oppose religious violence. Muslims are the main victims of that violence. Extremism is something we all have to fight, and it is stupid to antagonize the ones we need to help in that. Why do you want to supply terrorists with propaganda to convince the non violent victims in the mid east that we are their enemy, and that we are causing all their suffering?

appeaser

the legacy of Islam's God
THE CRIMES OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD

Muslims are sanctified by the blood of murdered kafirs. If the prophet of Islam, Mohammed, was alive today he would be sitting on death row somewhere waiting for his execution.

What is important to understand is that none of these depraved and criminal acts are seen as crimes to Muslims, except if they are committed by someone else. They are all holy, divine acts that their own prophet indulged in and therefore they have been given the stamp of validation as the moral code to be emulated by all Muslim men. They are all Sunna [The traditional portion of Muslim law based on Muhammad’s words or acts, accepted (together with the Koran) as authoritative by Muslims].

• Molested his wife – six-year-old Baby Aisha. One of Baby Aisha’s wifely duties was to clean semen stains from the prophet’s clothes. The prophet would take a bath with Baby Aisha and ‘thigh’ with Baby Aisha, meaning she was too small to be penetrated so he would take his penis and rub it up and down her thighs and against her vagina. Being a man of ‘mercy’ he did not penetrate Baby Aisha until she was nine.

• Raped Baby Aisha when she was nine (texts have altered her age when Muslims could not explain why their prophet married and consummated the marriage with a small child. Koranic texts makes it clear that Mohammed married her when she was six years old. For a marriage to be legally deemed valid it had to be sexually consummated. The Hadith clearly proves that Mohammed was a notorious pedophile). Advocated sex with baby girls.

• Raped a retarded woman. Murdered a woman. Had sex with his dead aunt.

• Captured women and raped them. Kept women as sex slaves. Muhammad had sex with 61 women: many he raped. There is no consensual sex between a child girl and a man. There is no consensual sex between a master and his sex slave. There is no consensual sex between a woman conquered in war and her husband conqueror. All such sexual acts are rape. RAPE IS RAPE.

• Had eleven wives at one time. Sexually abused his wives. Raped his wives. Forced sex during their menstruation including Baby Aisha. Mentally abused his wives. Can you imagine taking a child (or any aged woman) and molesting with your hand/fist her menstruating vagina?

• Beheaded his enemies. 600/900 Jewish men at one massacre. Had Jewish boys as young as 13 years old beheaded after pulling down their pants and inspecting groin for pubic hair.

• Ordered the murder, torture, terrorization of Christians and Jews if they did not convert to Islam. Forced Christians and Jews from Saudi Arabia (the mass exile).

• Assassinated people for insulting him or Islam. Established totalitarian rule. Had followers and their families burnt alive in their homes for missing prayer.

• Ordered the extermination, torture and terrorization of kafirs. Instigated 60 massacres and personally participated in 27 of them.

• Owned and sold slaves. Enslaved women and children.

• Called his black slaves pug noses and compared them to Satan.

• Treated his black slaves as beasts of burden.

• Lied and cheated. Mohammed encouraged his men to lie to deceive someone in order to get what he wanted.

• Caused division and hatred. Ordered no befriending with Christians and Jews.

• Subjugated and oppressed Muslim women. Required them to cover their faces.

• Married his daughter–in–law.

• Approved prostitution.

• Encouraged the rape of women in front of their husbands.

• Recommended wife beating. Hit his wife – Baby Aisha.

• Murdered prisoners of war. Committed acts of terror.

• Advocated suicide attacks.

• Executed apostates and homosexuals.

• Beat children who didn’t pray. Abolished adoption.

• Honor killings of Muslim women and children.

• Beat alcoholics. Lied.

• Stoned adulators to death. Stoned a woman to death after she had given birth.

• Ordered thief’s hands/feet chopped off.

• Tortured a man out of greed.

• Looted and plundered.

• Preached hate for people of other religions.

• Extorted money from other religions

• Forced conversions to Islam

• Allowed his companions to execute, behead, rape and enslave.

.

References to prophet Mohammed’s crimes:

Hat tip to our reader Craig for the due diligence in providing the references to these claims.

— Muhammad’s marriage to 6yr old Aisha-(Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234 and 236).

— Aisha cleans Muhammad’s semen stains-(Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 4, Number 229-233),

— Muhammad fondling Aisha during her ‘Menses’- (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 298-300, Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 1, Number 0270)

— Muhammad liked to have intercourse with Aisha and his other wives when they were menstruating (Sahih Muslim, Book 003, Number 0577-0579),

— He also loved to recite the Quran when his wives were in Menses while lying between their legs!-(Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 296), (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 639)

— Muhammad married his adopted Son’s wife called ‘Zaynab’ after lusting for her and then banned Adoption in Islam- (Surah 33:37,Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 305, Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3330, Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 516,The History of Al-Tabari: The Victory of Islam, translated by Michael Fishbein, 1997], Volume VIII, pp. 2-3)

— Muhammad having sex with his dead Aunt in the Grave-( “Kanz Al Umal” (The Treasure of the Workers, by Ali Ibn Husam Aldin, commonly known as Al-Mutaki Al-Hindi. He based his book on the hadiths and sayings listed in “Al-Jami Al-Saghir,” written by Jalal ul-Din Al-Suyuti.)

— ‘I (Muhammad) put on her my shirt that she may wear the clothes of heaven, and I slept with her in her coffin (grave) that I may lessen the pressure of the grave. She was the best of Allah’s creatures to me after Abu Talib’… The prophet was referring to Fatima , the mother of Ali. “The Arabic word used here for slept is “Id’tajat,” and literally means “lay down” with her. It is often used to mean, “Lay down to have sex.”

— Muhammad and the Quran sanctioned sex with your wives and ‘married’ slave girls-(Quran – 70:22-30, 23:5,6, 4:24, 33:50), — Muhammad speaks of sex with Slave Girls- (Sahih Bukhari – Volume 3, #432, Volume 9, #506, Volume 5, #637, Sahih Muslim, Volume 2, #3371)

— Muhammad disagreed with ‘coitus interruptus’ with slave girls- he supported RAPE.

— Muhammad forces a 17 yr old Jewish girl called Safiyyah to marry him and rapes her on the same day her husband and family are killed in the battle of Khaibar (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 522, Volume 1, Book 8, Number 367).

— Al Tabari reported in his (‘The History of al-Tabari: The Victory of Islam’, Translated by Michael Fishbein) that even some of Muhammad’s wives and companions were shocked that he forced Safiyyah to marry him after beheading her husband, brother and father.

 

[garion13a5]

Hello,

There is no Radical Islam without Islam; however, there is no Islam without Radical Islam. Accepting Islam means accepting terror, human rights abuses, homophobia and Sharia Law. Considering the number of problems we already have, why do we want to exacerbate our problems by allowing Muslim immigration?

garion13a5

Textbook example of a circular reasoning fallacy, and the thread premise fails as a consequence.

It comes as no surprise that those who are bigots are incapable of rational thought.

Hello,

This is not a circular reasoning fallacy, you just do not understand the statement. It is simple, in the absence of Islam we will not have to deal with radical Islamists. However, Islam has as a central component a violent radical element. Hence, there can never be a non-violent Islam.

You either failed to understand the statement or are being willfully obtuse. There is no intellectual merit in your hurling insults and then pretending to hold the high ground of rational thought. If you cannot logically refute the thesis, then ignore the threat and don't debase it by resorting to name calling.

garion13a5