Theories on how to efficiently run an economy

[Pumpkin Row]

Do you have evidence to support that assertion?

Trade Unions / Sweden / Countries / National Industrial Relations / Home - WORKER PARTICIPATION.eu
Details percentage of Union involvement.

About what you'd expect from Regressivism.

We were talking about Germany- none of your charts include Germany...
Why Germany Has It So Much Better Than the U.S.

We were talking about unions in the Nordic area.

No, we were talking about Germany. Go back in the thread, and this is what you'll find:

Don’t blame globalization. Other advanced nations facing the same global competition have managed to preserve middle class wages. Germany’s median wage is now higher than America’s.

Through unionism, and their production and overall economy are garbage compared to ours.

Do you have evidence to support that assertion?

Source: Theories on how to efficiently run an economy

Socialists tend to be broken records, so I assumed you were talking about the failures in the Nordic area, not Germany. I already posted about why America has a better economy than Germany, so you can go find that post in this thread. I was answering the other Socialist nutjob.

 

[CultureCitizen]

""From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs",

I am completely against this frase: It assumes a perpetual situation of scantiness AND as you mention it doesn't consider rewards. Maybe I want to work hard for five years and then go on sabbatical. The phrase doesn't accomodate for that.

Another problem : people's capacity change with experience. As people practice they becme more profficient at doing something, and sometimes they might discover they were very good at some area they hadn't tried before.

Access to low rate credit seems a lot less intrussive.
Regarding the market : it is a tool ( a very important one) , not a goal. But for many it seems to be as much as a goal as a source of liberty.

 

[CultureCitizen]

Except... I don't care about any income disparity, that's just how the world works. If you work hard, you succeed. If you don't, you don't. is that, as someone else said, you can lead someone to water, but you don't make them drink.

Nor Louis XVI , nor Nicolas II had any regard for income disparity... and the outcome... indeed ... pretty much how the world works.

As long as we have businesses, we have jobs. as long as we have jobs, people have money, except lazy people, who don't want jobs, nor work. Going out of our way to help said lazy people only damages the economy, not that we should help them out, anyway.

That's false. During depresions people are laid off regardless of whether they want to work or not.
Some are not able to work simply because they lack access to credit.
Muhammad Yunnus, founder of the Gremeen Bank, actually thinks credit should be a universal right.

Muhammad Yunnus sounds like a nutcase. Depressions caused by the government, anyway. If they'd keep their crusty fingers off of the economy, depressions would never occur.

Actually Yunnus is an entrepreneur , not a government official , so I'll have to disregard the first part of your comment.
Depressions are built into the capitalist system the main cause is private debt growth.

 

[Pumpkin Row]

Except... I don't care about any income disparity, that's just how the world works. If you work hard, you succeed. If you don't, you don't. is that, as someone else said, you can lead someone to water, but you don't make them drink.

Nor Louis XVI , nor Nicolas II had any regard for income disparity... and the outcome... indeed ... pretty much how the world works.

As long as we have businesses, we have jobs. as long as we have jobs, people have money, except lazy people, who don't want jobs, nor work. Going out of our way to help said lazy people only damages the economy, not that we should help them out, anyway.

That's false. During depresions people are laid off regardless of whether they want to work or not.
Some are not able to work simply because they lack access to credit.
Muhammad Yunnus, founder of the Gremeen Bank, actually thinks credit should be a universal right.

Muhammad Yunnus sounds like a nutcase. Depressions caused by the government, anyway. If they'd keep their crusty fingers off of the economy, depressions would never occur.

Actually Yunnus is an entrepreneur , not a government official , so I'll have to disregard the first part of your comment.
Depressions are built into the capitalist system the main cause is private debt growth.

The greatest Depression in history was caused by the government, and the most recent recession was perpetuated by the government. Your argument is invalid.

 

[CultureCitizen]

Nor Louis XVI , nor Nicolas II had any regard for income disparity... and the outcome... indeed ... pretty much how the world works.

As long as we have businesses, we have jobs. as long as we have jobs, people have money, except lazy people, who don't want jobs, nor work. Going out of our way to help said lazy people only damages the economy, not that we should help them out, anyway.

That's false. During depresions people are laid off regardless of whether they want to work or not.
Some are not able to work simply because they lack access to credit.
Muhammad Yunnus, founder of the Gremeen Bank, actually thinks credit should be a universal right.

Muhammad Yunnus sounds like a nutcase. Depressions caused by the government, anyway. If they'd keep their crusty fingers off of the economy, depressions would never occur.

Actually Yunnus is an entrepreneur , not a government official , so I'll have to disregard the first part of your comment.
Depressions are built into the capitalist system the main cause is private debt growth.

The greatest Depression in history was caused by the government, and the most recent recession was perpetuated by the government. Your argument is invalid.

Not so. My argument is supported by Fisher's debt deflation theory and Hyman Minsky's financial inestability hypothesis, which have been further explored by Steve Keen .

What are your sources ?

Debt deflation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hyman Minsky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

The greatest Depression in history was caused by the government, and the most recent recession was perpetuated by the government. Your argument is invalid.

this is true, at time of collapse Fan/Fred owned or guaranteed 75% of the Alt A and subprime mortgages. They were created to get people into homes the Republican free market said they could not afford. And that is only beginning to list lib govt interference with the free market.

 

[CultureCitizen]

The greatest Depression in history was caused by the government, and the most recent recession was perpetuated by the government. Your argument is invalid.

this is true, at time of collapse Fan/Fred owned or guaranteed 75% of the Alt A and subprime mortgages. They were created to get people into homes the Republican free market said they could not afford. And that is only beginning to list lib govt interference with the free market.

Ed, you are famous for discussing topics without a Iota of evidence to support your words.
The bottom line here: there is significant evidence that capitalism is not stable by itself.
It can be argued that government intervention caused the crash ( predatory lending notwithstanding).
But then , what about the 2001 crisis ? Was that too fueled by government intervention?

 

[Pumpkin Row]

The greatest Depression in history was caused by the government, and the most recent recession was perpetuated by the government. Your argument is invalid.

this is true, at time of collapse Fan/Fred owned or guaranteed 75% of the Alt A and subprime mortgages. They were created to get people into homes the Republican free market said they could not afford. And that is only beginning to list lib govt interference with the free market.

Ed, you are famous for discussing topics without a Iota of evidence to support your words.
The bottom line here: there is significant evidence that capitalism is not stable by itself.
It can be argued that government intervention caused the crash ( predatory lending notwithstanding).
But then , what about the 2001 crisis ? Was that too fueled by government intervention?

9/11, and the Federal Reserve Fund caused too much money to be channeled into higher asset prices like real estate and stocks rather than the price of consumer goods. So, yeah, terrorism and the government.

 

[Indeependent]

Nor Louis XVI , nor Nicolas II had any regard for income disparity... and the outcome... indeed ... pretty much how the world works.

As long as we have businesses, we have jobs. as long as we have jobs, people have money, except lazy people, who don't want jobs, nor work. Going out of our way to help said lazy people only damages the economy, not that we should help them out, anyway.

That's false. During depresions people are laid off regardless of whether they want to work or not.
Some are not able to work simply because they lack access to credit.
Muhammad Yunnus, founder of the Gremeen Bank, actually thinks credit should be a universal right.

Muhammad Yunnus sounds like a nutcase. Depressions caused by the government, anyway. If they'd keep their crusty fingers off of the economy, depressions would never occur.

Actually Yunnus is an entrepreneur , not a government official , so I'll have to disregard the first part of your comment.
Depressions are built into the capitalist system the main cause is private debt growth.

The greatest Depression in history was caused by the government, and the most recent recession was perpetuated by the government. Your argument is invalid.

It was caused by excessive foreign investment.

 

[Pumpkin Row]

As long as we have businesses, we have jobs. as long as we have jobs, people have money, except lazy people, who don't want jobs, nor work. Going out of our way to help said lazy people only damages the economy, not that we should help them out, anyway.

That's false. During depresions people are laid off regardless of whether they want to work or not.
Some are not able to work simply because they lack access to credit.
Muhammad Yunnus, founder of the Gremeen Bank, actually thinks credit should be a universal right.

Muhammad Yunnus sounds like a nutcase. Depressions caused by the government, anyway. If they'd keep their crusty fingers off of the economy, depressions would never occur.

Actually Yunnus is an entrepreneur , not a government official , so I'll have to disregard the first part of your comment.
Depressions are built into the capitalist system the main cause is private debt growth.

The greatest Depression in history was caused by the government, and the most recent recession was perpetuated by the government. Your argument is invalid.

It was caused by excessive foreign investment.

If you're referring to the Great Depression, it was caused by a domino effect started by the government attempting to artificially inflate our currency. If you're referring to the most recent recession, it was also caused by the government: Government Policies Caused The Financial Crisis And Made the Recession Worse

 

[Indeependent]

That's false. During depresions people are laid off regardless of whether they want to work or not.
Some are not able to work simply because they lack access to credit.
Muhammad Yunnus, founder of the Gremeen Bank, actually thinks credit should be a universal right.

Muhammad Yunnus sounds like a nutcase. Depressions caused by the government, anyway. If they'd keep their crusty fingers off of the economy, depressions would never occur.

Actually Yunnus is an entrepreneur , not a government official , so I'll have to disregard the first part of your comment.
Depressions are built into the capitalist system the main cause is private debt growth.

The greatest Depression in history was caused by the government, and the most recent recession was perpetuated by the government. Your argument is invalid.

It was caused by excessive foreign investment.

If you're referring to the Great Depression, it was caused by a domino effect started by the government attempting to artificially inflate our currency. If you're referring to the most recent recession, it was also caused by the government: Government Policies Caused The Financial Crisis And Made the Recession Worse

Watch the hypocrite put his foot in his mouth.
Watch yourself completely ignore him doing it.

 

[Pumpkin Row]

Muhammad Yunnus sounds like a nutcase. Depressions caused by the government, anyway. If they'd keep their crusty fingers off of the economy, depressions would never occur.

Actually Yunnus is an entrepreneur , not a government official , so I'll have to disregard the first part of your comment.
Depressions are built into the capitalist system the main cause is private debt growth.

The greatest Depression in history was caused by the government, and the most recent recession was perpetuated by the government. Your argument is invalid.

It was caused by excessive foreign investment.

If you're referring to the Great Depression, it was caused by a domino effect started by the government attempting to artificially inflate our currency. If you're referring to the most recent recession, it was also caused by the government: Government Policies Caused The Financial Crisis And Made the Recession Worse

Watch the hypocrite put his foot in his mouth.
Watch yourself completely ignore him doing it.

I didn't hear him put his foot in his mouth, you'll need to specify a time. I did, however, hear a detailed explanation of why the government is responsible.

 

[phoenyx]

Federal Aid is a waste of taxpayer money. Even the few people who actually end up on the street would still be fine, because food pantries exist,

Food pantries are already streched to their limits with the food stamp cuts that have recently been instituted in the U.S.:
Food pantries stretched to breaking point by food stamp cuts

I already explained that the Food Stamps were being used by businesses to pay lower amounts, of course more people would head to food pantries due to that problem. Food Stamps shouldn't have been introduced in the first place.

You have shown no evidence that removing food stamps would get businesses to pay higher wages. Nor have you shown that everyone who relies on food stamps would be able to find employment. Every country I have heard of whose minimum wage is abysmal and which has no social safety net contends with this:

And this:

Is that what you think will make America "Great Again"?

 

[phoenyx]

I agree. However, to do that, the banks and others who lend out money at interest have to stop siphoning it away from the lower classes. If the lower classes don't have money, they won't spend money, and if they don't spend money, there's no reason to have that many jobs.

They have to pay people to work for them, and that puts the money back into the economy.

Those with money only need to pay people to work for them if they want their labour. If they don't want their labour, they don't have to pay them anything, regardless of whether or not people want to work.

Even -employers- don't always blame their employees for losing their job. Here is a "top 10" list for the reasons for layoffs, none of which blame the employee:
Top 10 Reasons for Company Layoffs

Riveting, but that doesn't mean employees are never to blame.

Conversely, many employers and corporations care primarily about acquiring money, not about their employees.

You can thank Obama's Regressive policies for people being unable to work full time. Government regulation is, again, the route of the problem. Also see upper paragraphs on Federal Aid, which is also at the route of the problem.

What exact policies are you referring to?

Every business regulation he has implemented thus far, including the ones in Obamacare, which does contain several, including an extra tax on businesses per-employee.

This per employee tax may not be the best thing, I haven't investigated it. I certainly believe there are some flaws with Obamacare, even Obama admits that, but I think it's a step in the right direction. I think it would be much better if it went the route of Canada, with the government being the sole funder (single payer) and doing away with patients having to figure out insurance plans and the like. It also allows the government to apply some real pressure against the corporate pharmaceutical company fat cats, and cut their prices down to size.

 

[phoenyx]

Trick question.

Economies cannot possibly be run from a central location, let alone be run efficiently from without.

Economies are forces of nature. They are the "weather", so to speak, of billions of people exchanging perceived value for perceived value.

Economies are regulated worldwide. For one thing, many things are taxed, in order to pay many things. In a representative democracy, the things taxes pay for are supposed to be things that most people would agree are things that taxes should be used for. This isn't actually what happens in the U.S. and most other places though- instead, it's mainly the rich who are catered to, the working class is generally ignored.

 

[AnCap'n_Murica]

Economies are regulated worldwide. For one thing, many things are taxed, in order to pay many things. In a representative democracy, the things taxes pay for are supposed to be things that most people would agree are things that taxes should be used for. This isn't actually what happens in the U.S. and most other places though- instead, it's mainly the rich who are catered to, the working class is generally ignored.

The operative word here is "efficiently". Aggression in the marketplace (i.e. taxation, regulation, and cronyism) is inherently inefficient.

That tax funds don't end up being used for those things that, in your opinion, most people would agree should be used for, demonstrates the foolhardiness and gullibility of those "most people". If most people refused to participate and comply in these protection rackets, the whole mess would collapse and the world could get back to truly free and highly efficient markets.

 

[Indeependent]

Actually Yunnus is an entrepreneur , not a government official , so I'll have to disregard the first part of your comment.
Depressions are built into the capitalist system the main cause is private debt growth.

The greatest Depression in history was caused by the government, and the most recent recession was perpetuated by the government. Your argument is invalid.

It was caused by excessive foreign investment.

If you're referring to the Great Depression, it was caused by a domino effect started by the government attempting to artificially inflate our currency. If you're referring to the most recent recession, it was also caused by the government: Government Policies Caused The Financial Crisis And Made the Recession Worse

Watch the hypocrite put his foot in his mouth.
Watch yourself completely ignore him doing it.

I didn't hear him put his foot in his mouth, you'll need to specify a time. I did, however, hear a detailed explanation of why the government is responsible.

Another tool.
I love how the government is responsible for printing more money when investors send too much money overseas!
DELICIOUS!
Listen again.

 

[phoenyx]

Sure, there are always jobs available, but they aren't for everyone. Meanwhile, many higher education graduates are finding themselves unable to get anything but menial jobs:
Drop in U.S. temp workers signals tough job market for new grads

Richard Branson, Virgin entrepreneur and new owner of Northern Rock believes businesses should transform themselves along ethical lines:
Richard Branson: 'Capitalism has lost its way'

That's why college exists, TO MAKE THOSE JOBS FOR YOU.

You are assuming that there are enough high end jobs for everyone. This simply isn't the case. If employers -needed- so many high end employees, they would train them themselves even if they didn't have the precise qualifications they were looking for. Instead, they can simply hire people from other countries if they can't find what they want within their own country- or build factories and offices outside of the U.S. Which brings us to another point- it isn't just about the skillsets, it's about the costs. Which gets us to yet another point- it's been said politics is the art of saying "good doggy" until you can find a stick. I would extend this analogy to the darker side of capitalism, and the 'golden rule' I've referred to previously, namely that "he who has the gold makes the rules". Much like the mythical Midas discovered, trying to turn everything into gold (or money) is a recipe for disaster. The following documentary called "The Story of Stuff" explains how crony capitalism has been destroying this world:

 

[Indeependent]

Sure, there are always jobs available, but they aren't for everyone. Meanwhile, many higher education graduates are finding themselves unable to get anything but menial jobs:
Drop in U.S. temp workers signals tough job market for new grads

Richard Branson, Virgin entrepreneur and new owner of Northern Rock believes businesses should transform themselves along ethical lines:
Richard Branson: 'Capitalism has lost its way'

That's why college exists, TO MAKE THOSE JOBS FOR YOU.

You are assuming that there are enough high end jobs for everyone. This simply isn't the case. If employers -needed- so many high end employees, they would train them themselves even if they didn't have the precise qualifications they were looking for. Instead, they can simply hire people from other countries if they can't find what they want within their own country- or build factories and offices outside of the U.S. Which brings us to another point- it isn't just about the skillsets, it's about the costs. Which gets us to yet another point- it's been said politics is the art of saying "good doggy" until you can find a stick. I would extend this analogy to the darker side of capitalism, and the 'golden rule' I've referred to previously, namely that "he who has the gold makes the rules". Much like the mythical Midas discovered, trying to turn everything into gold (or money) is a recipe for disaster. The following documentary called "The Story of Stuff" explains how crony capitalism has been destroying this world:

There are high-end jobs; employers bring in Business Visas and have their highly skilled non-Indians train the Indian Business Visas.
It's a complete farce.

 

[anotherlife]

Except... I don't care about any income disparity, that's just how the world works. If you work hard, you succeed. If you don't, you don't. is that, as someone else said, you can lead someone to water, but you don't make them drink.

Nor Louis XVI , nor Nicolas II had any regard for income disparity... and the outcome... indeed ... pretty much how the world works.

As long as we have businesses, we have jobs. as long as we have jobs, people have money, except lazy people, who don't want jobs, nor work. Going out of our way to help said lazy people only damages the economy, not that we should help them out, anyway.

That's false. During depresions people are laid off regardless of whether they want to work or not.
Some are not able to work simply because they lack access to credit.
Muhammad Yunnus, founder of the Gremeen Bank, actually thinks credit should be a universal right.

Muhammad Yunnus sounds like a nutcase. Depressions caused by the government, anyway. If they'd keep their crusty fingers off of the economy, depressions would never occur.

No because governments and central banks are intertwined. Without credit extensions, any business that is bigger than a carpet shop would fail in a day.