The Warren Buffett's Secretary Issue

[logical4u]

When the rich are punished, it is the poor, that suffer.

Unknown

 

[Quantum Windbag]

So, because Rush mentions the same set of facts, that makes them not credible in some way?

It's not credible because it is NOT true!!!!

Cap gains is taxed ONLY once. No matter how many times your MessiahRushie says it's taxed twice, once as earned income and a second time as cap gains, it will always be pure BULLSHIT!

September 19, 2011
RUSH: The whole argument for the Buffett Rule is Buffett himself says it's not fair that he's paying a lower tax rate on his capital gains and dividend income than his secretary pays on her earned income. It just isn't fair. The only problem is that is completely untrue. It's a great sounding argument, comes together as a nice sound bite, but it is untrue. Buffett is paying a tax in his dividend and capital gains on money that's already been taxed once before as income. So you have to add that first tax rate to the second lower rate on capital or dividends to find out what somebody's actually paying on it.

How is it bullshit?

Berkshire-Hathaway makes $1 billion and pays income taxes on it. They pay that at the corporate rate, which is 35%. Buffet then decides to pay himself the remaining $650,000, which is taxed at 15%. which gives him $552,000. He then proceeds to lie to idiots like you that his secretary pays more in taxes, and you swallow it like the good stooge you are.

 

[Listening]

Why is it, that when pointing out that Warren Buffett's (legendary, and ostensibly long suffering & exploited) Secretary pays a higher tax rate than does Warren, none of the Big Government types ever come to the conclusion that her tax rate is Too High?

Thanks for starting this thread.

I had heard this before and I am now doing a little research to better understand (if that is possible) more on this topic.

 

[Listening]

Warren Buffet has a lower tax rate than his secretary | The Unofficial Stanford Blog

“Mr Buffett said that he was taxed at 17.7 per cent on the $46 million he made last year, without trying to avoid paying higher taxes, while his secretary, who earned $60,000, was taxed at 30 per cent. Mr Buffett told his audience, which included John Mack, the chairman of Morgan Stanley, and Alan Patricof, the founder of the US branch of Apax Partners, that US government policy had accentuated a disparity of wealth that hurt the economy by stifling opportunity and motivation.

********************

This is simply untrue.

Buffet knows we have a progressive tax system and that the more you make (in taxable income), the higher a percentage you will pay.

How does anyone buy into this crapp ?

 

[edthecynic]

So, because Rush mentions the same set of facts, that makes them not credible in some way?

It's not credible because it is NOT true!!!!

Cap gains is taxed ONLY once. No matter how many times your MessiahRushie says it's taxed twice, once as earned income and a second time as cap gains, it will always be pure BULLSHIT!

September 19, 2011
RUSH: The whole argument for the Buffett Rule is Buffett himself says it's not fair that he's paying a lower tax rate on his capital gains and dividend income than his secretary pays on her earned income. It just isn't fair. The only problem is that is completely untrue. It's a great sounding argument, comes together as a nice sound bite, but it is untrue. Buffett is paying a tax in his dividend and capital gains on money that's already been taxed once before as income. So you have to add that first tax rate to the second lower rate on capital or dividends to find out what somebody's actually paying on it.

How is it bullshit?

Berkshire-Hathaway makes $1 billion and pays income taxes on it. They pay that at the corporate rate, which is 35%. Buffet then decides to pay himself the remaining $650,000, which is taxed at 15%. which gives him $552,000. He then proceeds to lie to idiots like you that his secretary pays more in taxes, and you swallow it like the good stooge you are.

Because B-H's income is not Buffet's personal income.

Your MessiahRushie elaborated on what income he was talking about. He's talking about Buffet's, or anyone else's, personal income that they use to buy stock with. Buffet's secretary does NOT pay the corporate rate on her income.

When anyone buys stock and the stock goes up in value and then they sell it, they only pay cap gain tax on the INCREASE in value over the price they paid for the stock, thus the stock is taxed only once. PERIOD.

From your MessiahRushie's same rant:

September 19, 2011
RUSH: The "unfairness" is the rate the secretary pays! You're comparing income versus capital gains and dividend rates. Now, when Buffett invests money in a stock and the stock shows a profit and he declares it, he'll pay 15% as a capital gains rate. But what money is he investing? He's investing after-tax dollars he's already paid his secretary's tax rate on. It's not that Warren Buffett somehow (or every rich person) has a stash of money that somehow they get to play with that's only taxed at 15%, and that the secretary and other people making $50,000 a year don't have that stash of money and don't have that loophole. There's no "loophole" here! There's no "loophole" that says Warren Buffett only has to pay 15% and his secretary has to pay whatever her rate is.

I don't even know. Thre's no loophole there. There's just a rate of taxation on capital gains income, investments -- you take a risk -- verses earned income, salary and wages and what have you; independent contractor income. My point is that the money Warren Buffett uses to buy stock or invest in companies is already after-tax dollars. It's already money he's made that he has already paid his income tax rate on. This is a flat-out lie, folks. It's a flat-out, total, purposeful misrepresentation.

 

[Chris]

Why is it, that when pointing out that Warren Buffett's (legendary, and ostensibly long suffering & exploited) Secretary pays a higher tax rate than does Warren, none of the Big Government types ever come to the conclusion that her tax rate is Too High?

Because we have the lowest tax rate of any of the Western countries except for Spain and Japan.

And Spain is broke and Japan has no military to speak of.

Our taxes are too low because of George W. Bush's tax cuts.

 

[Chris]

Warren Buffet has a lower tax rate than his secretary | The Unofficial Stanford Blog

“Mr Buffett said that he was taxed at 17.7 per cent on the $46 million he made last year, without trying to avoid paying higher taxes, while his secretary, who earned $60,000, was taxed at 30 per cent. Mr Buffett told his audience, which included John Mack, the chairman of Morgan Stanley, and Alan Patricof, the founder of the US branch of Apax Partners, that US government policy had accentuated a disparity of wealth that hurt the economy by stifling opportunity and motivation.

********************

This is simply untrue.

Buffet knows we have a progressive tax system and that the more you make (in taxable income), the higher a percentage you will pay.

How does anyone buy into this crapp ?

Because we do more reading than you...

WASHINGTON, D.C.--The 400 highest-earning taxpayers in the U.S. reported a record $105 billion in total adjusted gross income in 2006, but they paid just $18 billion in tax, new Internal Revenue Service figures show. That works out to an average federal income tax bite of 17%--the lowest rate paid by the richest 400 during the 15-year period covered by the IRS statistics. The average federal tax bite on the top 400 was 30% in 1995 and 23% in 2002.

Richest 400 Earn More, Pay Lower Tax Rate - Forbes.com

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It's not credible because it is NOT true!!!!

Cap gains is taxed ONLY once. No matter how many times your MessiahRushie says it's taxed twice, once as earned income and a second time as cap gains, it will always be pure BULLSHIT!

September 19, 2011
RUSH: The whole argument for the Buffett Rule is Buffett himself says it's not fair that he's paying a lower tax rate on his capital gains and dividend income than his secretary pays on her earned income. It just isn't fair. The only problem is that is completely untrue. It's a great sounding argument, comes together as a nice sound bite, but it is untrue. Buffett is paying a tax in his dividend and capital gains on money that's already been taxed once before as income. So you have to add that first tax rate to the second lower rate on capital or dividends to find out what somebody's actually paying on it.

How is it bullshit?

Berkshire-Hathaway makes $1 billion and pays income taxes on it. They pay that at the corporate rate, which is 35%. Buffet then decides to pay himself the remaining $650,000, which is taxed at 15%. which gives him $552,000. He then proceeds to lie to idiots like you that his secretary pays more in taxes, and you swallow it like the good stooge you are.

Because B-H's income is not Buffet's personal income.

Your MessiahRushie elaborated on what income he was talking about. He's talking about Buffet's, or anyone else's, personal income that they use to buy stock with. Buffet's secretary does NOT pay the corporate rate on her income.

When anyone buys stock and the stock goes up in value and then they sell it, they only pay cap gain tax on the INCREASE in value over the price they paid for the stock, thus the stock is taxed only once. PERIOD.

From your MessiahRushie's same rant:

September 19, 2011
RUSH: The "unfairness" is the rate the secretary pays! You're comparing income versus capital gains and dividend rates. Now, when Buffett invests money in a stock and the stock shows a profit and he declares it, he'll pay 15% as a capital gains rate. But what money is he investing? He's investing after-tax dollars he's already paid his secretary's tax rate on. It's not that Warren Buffett somehow (or every rich person) has a stash of money that somehow they get to play with that's only taxed at 15%, and that the secretary and other people making $50,000 a year don't have that stash of money and don't have that loophole. There's no "loophole" here! There's no "loophole" that says Warren Buffett only has to pay 15% and his secretary has to pay whatever her rate is.

I don't even know. Thre's no loophole there. There's just a rate of taxation on capital gains income, investments -- you take a risk -- verses earned income, salary and wages and what have you; independent contractor income. My point is that the money Warren Buffett uses to buy stock or invest in companies is already after-tax dollars. It's already money he's made that he has already paid his income tax rate on. This is a flat-out lie, folks. It's a flat-out, total, purposeful misrepresentation.

He owns one third of the company, that makes one third of the profit, and one third of the tax burden, his.

 

[edthecynic]

How is it bullshit?

Berkshire-Hathaway makes $1 billion and pays income taxes on it. They pay that at the corporate rate, which is 35%. Buffet then decides to pay himself the remaining $650,000, which is taxed at 15%. which gives him $552,000. He then proceeds to lie to idiots like you that his secretary pays more in taxes, and you swallow it like the good stooge you are.

Because B-H's income is not Buffet's personal income.

Your MessiahRushie elaborated on what income he was talking about. He's talking about Buffet's, or anyone else's, personal income that they use to buy stock with. Buffet's secretary does NOT pay the corporate rate on her income.

When anyone buys stock and the stock goes up in value and then they sell it, they only pay cap gain tax on the INCREASE in value over the price they paid for the stock, thus the stock is taxed only once. PERIOD.

From your MessiahRushie's same rant:

September 19, 2011
RUSH: The "unfairness" is the rate the secretary pays! You're comparing income versus capital gains and dividend rates. Now, when Buffett invests money in a stock and the stock shows a profit and he declares it, he'll pay 15% as a capital gains rate. But what money is he investing? He's investing after-tax dollars he's already paid his secretary's tax rate on. It's not that Warren Buffett somehow (or every rich person) has a stash of money that somehow they get to play with that's only taxed at 15%, and that the secretary and other people making $50,000 a year don't have that stash of money and don't have that loophole. There's no "loophole" here! There's no "loophole" that says Warren Buffett only has to pay 15% and his secretary has to pay whatever her rate is.

I don't even know. Thre's no loophole there. There's just a rate of taxation on capital gains income, investments -- you take a risk -- verses earned income, salary and wages and what have you; independent contractor income. My point is that the money Warren Buffett uses to buy stock or invest in companies is already after-tax dollars. It's already money he's made that he has already paid his income tax rate on. This is a flat-out lie, folks. It's a flat-out, total, purposeful misrepresentation.

He owns one third of the company, that makes one third of the profit, and one third of the tax burden, his.

No, that makes 100% of the tax burden B-H's. Remember the Extreme Court has established that a corporation is a separate person!

Again, your MessiahRushie is talking about people who buy stock with their personal income. Not all people own the company they buy stock in!!!!! And it is undeniable that he is talking about the personal tax rate and not the corporate rate when he says Buffet is buying the stock with money that he PAID HIS SECRETARY'S RATE ON. B-H did not pay his secretary's rate on their corporate income!!!!!

You just don't want to admit your MessiahRushie is full of shit!!!

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Because B-H's income is not Buffet's personal income.

Your MessiahRushie elaborated on what income he was talking about. He's talking about Buffet's, or anyone else's, personal income that they use to buy stock with. Buffet's secretary does NOT pay the corporate rate on her income.

When anyone buys stock and the stock goes up in value and then they sell it, they only pay cap gain tax on the INCREASE in value over the price they paid for the stock, thus the stock is taxed only once. PERIOD.

From your MessiahRushie's same rant:

September 19, 2011
RUSH: The "unfairness" is the rate the secretary pays! You're comparing income versus capital gains and dividend rates. Now, when Buffett invests money in a stock and the stock shows a profit and he declares it, he'll pay 15% as a capital gains rate. But what money is he investing? He's investing after-tax dollars he's already paid his secretary's tax rate on. It's not that Warren Buffett somehow (or every rich person) has a stash of money that somehow they get to play with that's only taxed at 15%, and that the secretary and other people making $50,000 a year don't have that stash of money and don't have that loophole. There's no "loophole" here! There's no "loophole" that says Warren Buffett only has to pay 15% and his secretary has to pay whatever her rate is.

I don't even know. Thre's no loophole there. There's just a rate of taxation on capital gains income, investments -- you take a risk -- verses earned income, salary and wages and what have you; independent contractor income. My point is that the money Warren Buffett uses to buy stock or invest in companies is already after-tax dollars. It's already money he's made that he has already paid his income tax rate on. This is a flat-out lie, folks. It's a flat-out, total, purposeful misrepresentation.

He owns one third of the company, that makes one third of the profit, and one third of the tax burden, his.

No, that makes 100% of the tax burden B-H's. Remember the Extreme Court has established that a corporation is a separate person!

Again, your MessiahRushie is talking about people who buy stock with their personal income. Not all people own the company they buy stock in!!!!! And it is undeniable that he is talking about the personal tax rate and not the corporate rate when he says Buffet is buying the stock with money that he PAID HIS SECRETARY'S RATE ON. B-H did not pay his secretary's rate on their corporate income!!!!!

You just don't want to admit your MessiahRushie is full of shit!!!

Actually, Congress is the one that said that. They defined corporations as people in order to collect income tax from them, something most idiots supported at the time because they thought it would get them more money. The consequence of that was that it gave them rights under the same law that forced them to pay taxes. If you do not like it you are free to write your congresscritter and tell him to stop taxing them, and they will no longer have those pesky rights that come from paying taxes.

Or would that cause your brain to explode?

To make it simple, one third of the entire company is owned by Buffet. It is his money, and he leaves it in the company to keep it out of the hands of the government. Every once in a while he takes some of that moeny out of the company. He opts to do so as a capital gain instead of paying himself a salary because it saves him money.

That alone makes his claim that he does not do anything to avoid paying taxes on it a lie, because he deliberately takes advantage of a hole in the tax code that lets him park his money in the company instead of collecting a salary, and then call it carried interest. He has the right to do that, but he does not have the right to force me to believe him when he lies.

Your personal agenda and bias make you want to buy into his lie. Don't, it just makes you a sap. He gets rich off the tax code, and will make billions more if the Buffet Rule is made law. Hell, he is making billions just because idiots like you are supporting it. You are the one supporting the rich at the expense of the middle class and the poor.

That is just pathetic.

 

[auditor0007]

It is too high. And his is too low.

Everyone should pay the same percentage in income tax.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong again Ravi. That sounds great, but it would put a huge strain on the lowest income earners. Now saying that everyone should have the same rate is another thing. Exempt so much income, for everyone, then let a flat rate kick in, on all income, capital gains, everything, and include SS and Medicare payroll taxes into that.

After doing that, then states would need to rethink their taxing policies as state taxes are extremely regressive with the lowest income earners paying the largest percentage of their income in state taxes in all but a few states.

 

[edthecynic]

He owns one third of the company, that makes one third of the profit, and one third of the tax burden, his.

No, that makes 100% of the tax burden B-H's. Remember the Extreme Court has established that a corporation is a separate person!

Again, your MessiahRushie is talking about people who buy stock with their personal income. Not all people own the company they buy stock in!!!!! And it is undeniable that he is talking about the personal tax rate and not the corporate rate when he says Buffet is buying the stock with money that he PAID HIS SECRETARY'S RATE ON. B-H did not pay his secretary's rate on their corporate income!!!!!

You just don't want to admit your MessiahRushie is full of shit!!!

Actually, Congress is the one that said that. They defined corporations as people in order to collect income tax from them, something most idiots supported at the time because they thought it would get them more money. The consequence of that was that it gave them rights under the same law that forced them to pay taxes. If you do not like it you are free to write your congresscritter and tell him to stop taxing them, and they will no longer have those pesky rights that come from paying taxes.

Or would that cause your brain to explode?

To make it simple, one third of the entire company is owned by Buffet. It is his money, and he leaves it in the company to keep it out of the hands of the government. Every once in a while he takes some of that moeny out of the company. He opts to do so as a capital gain instead of paying himself a salary because it saves him money.

That alone makes his claim that he does not do anything to avoid paying taxes on it a lie, because he deliberately takes advantage of a hole in the tax code that lets him park his money in the company instead of collecting a salary, and then call it carried interest. He has the right to do that, but he does not have the right to force me to believe him when he lies.

Your personal agenda and bias make you want to buy into his lie. Don't, it just makes you a sap. He gets rich off the tax code, and will make billions more if the Buffet Rule is made law. Hell, he is making billions just because idiots like you are supporting it. You are the one supporting the rich at the expense of the middle class and the poor.

That is just pathetic.

None of that changes the fact that your MessiahRushie was full of shit when he said that people who buy stock are being taxed twice when they sell their stock, once as earned income and a second time as capital gains. Corporate income is not taxed at earned income rates.

September 20, 2011
RUSH: There was an explanation of the difference between capital gains income and earned income and the tax rates on both, and the fact that capital gains income has already been taxed once before as income.

 

[Ravi]

The fat-assed moron is still telling his DittoTard parrots the same bullshit!

September 20, 2011
RUSH: There was an explanation of the difference between capital gains income and earned income and the tax rates on both, and the fact that capital gains income has already been taxed once before as income.

Capital gains income is taxed exactly once.

I wonder if rush is really as stupid as he seems or he just enjoys being a hero to the uberidiots.

 

[asterism]

Because B-H's income is not Buffet's personal income.

Your MessiahRushie elaborated on what income he was talking about. He's talking about Buffet's, or anyone else's, personal income that they use to buy stock with. Buffet's secretary does NOT pay the corporate rate on her income.

When anyone buys stock and the stock goes up in value and then they sell it, they only pay cap gain tax on the INCREASE in value over the price they paid for the stock, thus the stock is taxed only once. PERIOD.

From your MessiahRushie's same rant:

September 19, 2011
RUSH: The "unfairness" is the rate the secretary pays! You're comparing income versus capital gains and dividend rates. Now, when Buffett invests money in a stock and the stock shows a profit and he declares it, he'll pay 15% as a capital gains rate. But what money is he investing? He's investing after-tax dollars he's already paid his secretary's tax rate on. It's not that Warren Buffett somehow (or every rich person) has a stash of money that somehow they get to play with that's only taxed at 15%, and that the secretary and other people making $50,000 a year don't have that stash of money and don't have that loophole. There's no "loophole" here! There's no "loophole" that says Warren Buffett only has to pay 15% and his secretary has to pay whatever her rate is.

I don't even know. Thre's no loophole there. There's just a rate of taxation on capital gains income, investments -- you take a risk -- verses earned income, salary and wages and what have you; independent contractor income. My point is that the money Warren Buffett uses to buy stock or invest in companies is already after-tax dollars. It's already money he's made that he has already paid his income tax rate on. This is a flat-out lie, folks. It's a flat-out, total, purposeful misrepresentation.

He owns one third of the company, that makes one third of the profit, and one third of the tax burden, his.

No, that makes 100% of the tax burden B-H's. Remember the Extreme Court has established that a corporation is a separate person!

Again, your MessiahRushie is talking about people who buy stock with their personal income. Not all people own the company they buy stock in!!!!! And it is undeniable that he is talking about the personal tax rate and not the corporate rate when he says Buffet is buying the stock with money that he PAID HIS SECRETARY'S RATE ON. B-H did not pay his secretary's rate on their corporate income!!!!!

You just don't want to admit your MessiahRushie is full of shit!!!

The Supreme Court may have conferred personhood on corporations but the IRS has not. Anyone who controls a corporation that is audited has their personal tax history audited also. The IRS considers it a personal liability and has rules regarding personal gain through corporate tax manipulation. In some cases they treat corporate financial events as personal and levy back taxes, penalties and interest at the personal level.

They've got an entire system of comparing different scenarios and if there is even the appearance of scheduling dividends, purchases, capital investments, debt instruments and distributions to benefit insiders (those who control the corporation) they levy the tax on the controlling shareholders and it is up to the individuals to justify their actions.

The assumed rate of tax on net profit for any economic activity done by individuals through C-corporations they control is 40%. If they find a lower effective rate they start the process of dissolving the corporation.

 

[asterism]

The fat-assed moron is still telling his DittoTard parrots the same bullshit!

September 20, 2011
RUSH: There was an explanation of the difference between capital gains income and earned income and the tax rates on both, and the fact that capital gains income has already been taxed once before as income.

Capital gains income is taxed exactly once.

I wonder if rush is really as stupid as he seems or he just enjoys being a hero to the uberidiots.

The profits resulting in capital gains are taxed exactly twice. Once at the corporate level and once at the personal level.

 

[editec]

If Warren and his class were paying more, she'd be paying less.

 

[OODA_Loop]

If Warren and his class were paying more, she'd be paying less.

If you and your class were leeching less, she'd be paying less.

 

[Skull Pilot]

If you compare the income tax Buffet pays on his 100K a year salary to that of his secretary you would see that he did indeed pay more income tax.

Capital gains are not treated as earned income. His secretary would pay the exact same capital gains tax rate as her boss if she profited from her investments.

This whole issue is a classic example of obfuscation and omission meant to rile up the sheep before the next election cycle.

 

[pete]

Partial thanks to Ravi. I agree that hers is too high.

Buffett's is only too low in the sense that Berkshire Hathaway is $1B in arrears on paying its taxes, which makes Buffett an enormous hypocrite, but not undertaxed. With a marginal corporate tax rate of 35% (federal), he would already have been taxed once on the return on his capital (if BH had paid the taxes). His cap gains and/or dividend taxes are the second time the same money is taxed.

so only hypocrites dispute their tax bills?

good to know

What's to dispute?...He already claims that he doesn't pay enough, so kicking in some more should give him some street cred.



I guess he values his tax attorneys and accountants more so than he does his country!

and think of their salary which Im sure is more than the secretary's and why because their job is to keep more in buffets pocket and less in the governments and they probably get nice bonuses as well

 

[asterism]

If Warren and his class were paying more, she'd be paying less.

That is absolutely not true. Each and every time the top tax rates have been cut, the upper income earners have paid more in total and in percentage of all taxes collected.