The US heat dome is a warning for the 2024 elections

[Crick]

Nothing is wrong with them.

Good.

They don't drive northern hemisphere glaciation.

Why don't they?

Disruption and restoration of heat circulation from the ocean does along with the resulting feedbacks of both.

Do you have data that support that? Do you have any published studies that support that?

 

[ding]

Good.

Why don't they?

Do you have data that support that? Do you have any published studies that support that?

How does the ocean affect climate and weather on land? - NOAA Ocean Exploration

The ocean influences weather and climate by storing solar radiation, distributing heat and moisture around the globe, and driving weather systems.

oceanexplorer.noaa.gov

 

[Crick]

View attachment 976349

How does the ocean affect climate and weather on land? - NOAA Ocean Exploration

The ocean influences weather and climate by storing solar radiation, distributing heat and moisture around the globe, and driving weather systems.

oceanexplorer.noaa.gov

View attachment 976354

Here again we see the one thing that ALWAYS seems to be lacking from your posts: some explanation as to how these observations support your claim.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

The U.S. heat dome is a warning about the 2024 election

And there may be no policy area with a clearer divide between President Joe Biden and former President Donald Trump.

www.msnbc.com

No one would describe Saudi Arabia in the summer as chilly, but pilgrims at this year’s Hajj experienced something unusual even for this largely desert nation. According to the Saudi weather service, temperatures at the Grand Mosque in Mecca reached an astonishing 125 degrees Fahrenheit on Monday; 2,700 people reportedly were overcome by heat exhaustion, and dozens of pilgrims died from the temperatures.

If you have grandchildren and you want them to see a bright future, you will not vote for trump. He has vowed to roll back all environmental efforts to battle climate change. His view into the future extends no farther than the end of his orange nose. With trump is is all about power and money. He is thinking of his Saudi friends and their dependence on fossil fuel revenue.

Within five years, we may be seeing 120+ degrees temperature in the US, on a regular basis. Then the repubs will come up with another excuse to deny climate change.

It gets hot in the Middle East

 

[Crick]

It gets hot in the Middle East

and it's cold at the poles.

 

[ding]

Here again we see the one thing that ALWAYS seems to be lacking from your posts: some explanation as to how these observations support your claim.

How many more times do I have to explain it to you? When heat circulation from the Atlantic to the Arctic is disrupted extensive northern hemisphere continental glaciation occurs. When heat circulation from the Atlantic to the Arctic is restored the planet warms back up. It's not that complicated. You act like it's unheard of but I promise you it's not. It's been going on for 3 million years.

 

[Crick]

How many more times do I have to explain it to you? When heat circulation from the Atlantic to the Arctic is disrupted extensive northern hemisphere continental glaciation occurs. When heat circulation from the Atlantic to the Arctic is restored the planet warms back up. It's not that complicated. You act like it's unheard of but I promise you it's not. It's been going on for 3 million years.

And, as always, you leave out the why. What disrupted heat circulation from the Atlantic to the Arctic in all those glacial-interglacial cycles?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Before 1850, Death Valley was known as “Pleasant Passway”

 

[ding]

And, as always, you leave out the why. What disrupted heat circulation from the Atlantic to the Arctic in all those glacial-interglacial cycles?

Do you know how many times I have explained this to you? Do you have dementia?

I already did read it and several others as well. It's pretty clear to me that the collapse of the AMOC is temperature dependent (i.e. density and salinity related) and is what has been triggering glacial periods.

Changes to the ocean's water density and salinity alter the circulation path. Heat that use to get transported to the north pole of the planet no longer gets transported to the north pole of the planet.

You aren't listening to what I am saying. As the planet naturally warms up to its peak interglacial temperature, salinity and density changes coupled with changes in wind patterns switches off the heat transfer from the Atlantic to the Arctic. And this is what triggers the glacial period and ends the glacial period when circulation returns to what we would call normal.

That's an idiotic statement. Glacial periods are abrupt changes in climate triggered by loss of heat from the Atlantic to the Arctic. The result is extensive continental glaciation in the northern hemisphere and a long period of frigid temperatures as it slowly makes it way to warming up to interglacial temperatures. The planet is still warming up from the last glacial period and is 2C cooler than peak temperatures of previous interglacial periods. At which time changes in ocean salinity and densities coupled with changes in wind patterns due to solar variability - whether orbital or output or sun spot activity - triggers the next glacial period.

Even after heat transport resumes it still takes a very long time for the planet to equilibrate back to it's pre-glaciation temperature.

The Arctic only needs a disruption of heat from the Atlantic to the Arctic to trigger glaciation in the Arctic. Then albedo kicks in and glaciation spreads to extensive NH continental glaciation. That's the abrupt change. Then the disruption to heat to the Arctic ends. Heat flow returns to the Arctic from the Atlantic. The ice melts. Albedo changes. But it takes a very long time for the planet to return to its pre-glacial temperature. At which point the next glacial period is triggered by salinity and density changes and the cycle begins anew.

No telling when. If past performance is any indication it's still 2C away. As for why it will happen? Really? You don't know? Salinity and density changes due to temperature change and wind pattern changes due to solar variability changes.

I already explained this. Temperature affects ocean water salinity and density. Those changes coupled with changes in wind patterns are what affect the circulation patterns. The only possible explanation for the glacial cycles that have been repeating is heat from the ocean. There is nothing else out there.

How many times do I have to keep answering the exact same questions?

Temperature dependent salinity and density changes to ocean waters and changes to wind patterns due to changes in effective solar radiation due to either solar forcing or changes in solar output. Is this beyond your ability to comprehend?

Temperature dependent AMOC switch off based upon changes in salinity and density most certainly do. Then the NH freezes and albedo amplifies it. AMOC switches back on and it take a really long time to return to its pre-glacial trigger temperature where it happens all over again. And that's why we don't see logarithmic warming from a logarithmic GHG effect. Because it's not due to that at all. It was going to continue warming regardless because that's what it always does before it reverses itself. Been going on for millions of years.

Salinity, density changes and wind pattern changes. It's hilarious to watch you argue against the ocean currents driving climate changes. The ocean is where the vast majority of heat is stored, dumb dumb.

Salinity changes and density changes which affect ocean currents. And solar variability changes which affect wind patterns which affect ocean currents.

No, I think orbital cycles do play a role in triggering glacial periods. Just not by reducing solar radiation striking the planet enough to cause a 2C change in NH temperatures. For that to occur it must be because of disruption of heat transport from the Atlantic to the Arctic. So whatever role orbital cycles play it most likely is from affecting wind patterns which affect ocean circulation patterns. So that coupled with salinity and density changes from increased melt water and thermal expansion is what triggers the glacial period.

I have. Many times.

Disruption of heat flow from the Atlantic to the Arctic due to decreased water salinity, decreased water density and changes to wind patterns due to changes in solar radiation.

Orbital forcing, solar output variation and solar flare frequency. These can have temperature impacts and impacts on wind patterns which affect ocean currents. Which affects heat distribution to the Arctic from the Atlantic (along with changes in salinity and density).

I believe this interglacial period is still 2C below the temperature which causes salinity and density changes in the ocean (due to meltwater and thermal expansion) to trigger changes in ocean currents which disrupt heat circulation from the Atlantic to the Arctic.

No, I'm suggesting the glacial cycles are driven by the disruption of heat circulation from the Atlantic to the Arctic and the restoration of heat circulation from the Atlantic to the Arctic. The primary cause being changes in ocean water salinity and density. Orbital forcing may play a role in glacial cycles as orbital cycles affect solar radiation which in turn could affect wind patterns. But all in all I believe orbital forcing is not the main cause of the cycles. My evidence for this are the D-O events which could not have been caused by orbital forcing.

 

[frigidweirdo]

If by not natural, you mean anthropogenic, I'm afraid we have a very good idea which is which.

View attachment 976235

Causes of Climate Change | Climate Change Science | US EPA

19january2017snapshot.epa.gov

View attachment 976237

Analysis: Why scientists think 100% of global warming is due to humans - Carbon Brief

The science on the human contribution to modern warming is quite clear. Humans emissions and activities have caused around 100% of the warming observed.

www.carbonbrief.org

View attachment 976238

A real-time Global Warming Index - Scientific Reports

We propose a simple real-time index of global human-induced warming and assess its robustness to uncertainties in climate forcing and short-term climate fluctuations. This index provides improved scientific context for temperature stabilisation targets and has the potential to decrease the...

www.nature.com

Then I think you need to do some more reading about the Milankovitch Cycles.

View attachment 976241

Milankovitch Cycles and Climate Change

www.climatedata.info

We can guess about natural v. man made, but the reality is we don't know what temperatures should be.

As for the Milankovich cycles, take a look at what you posted. You only have solar irradiance, which can be high with temperatures low, or high with temperatures high. Says not much.

 

[Crick]

We can guess about natural v. man made, but the reality is we don't know what temperatures should be.

Those aren't guesses.

As for the Milankovich cycles, take a look at what you posted. You only have solar irradiance, which can be high with temperatures low, or high with temperatures high. Says not much.

Are you also suggesting that the Milankovitch cycles do nothing?

 

[ding]

Those aren't guesses.

Are you also suggesting that the Milankovitch cycles do nothing?

Even your own link admits there is no known mechanism for how Milankovitch cycles trigger glacial and interglacial periods. Which is why they don't correlate perfectly with glacial and interglacial events.

But what they can do is affect wind patterns which can affect ocean currents which can affect heat distribution to the Arctic which can trigger glacial and interglacial periods along with changes to ocean water salinity and density which are temperature dependent.

 

[Crick]

Even your own link admits there is no known mechanism for how Milankovitch cycles trigger glacial and interglacial periods. Which is why they don't correlate perfectly with glacial and interglacial events.

But what they can do is affect wind patterns which can affect ocean currents which can affect heat distribution to the Arctic which can trigger glacial and interglacial periods along with changes to ocean water salinity and density which are temperature dependent.

And how would they affect wind patterns? Photons from the sun striking molecules in the atmosphere and driving them one way rather than the other? No. They work by changes in insolation, likely acting on the differing landmasses in the northern and southern hemispheres.

In the current scenario, the biggest driver of salinity changes is the addition of billions of tons of fresh meltwater due to (you guessed it) anthropogenic global warming which is also the biggest driver of temperatures changes. Not winds. Not the decreasing flow in the Gulf Stream and the AMOC.

 

[ding]

And how would they affect wind patterns? Photons from the sun striking molecules in the atmosphere and driving them one way rather than the other? No. They work by changes in insolation, likely acting on the differing landmasses in the northern and southern hemispheres.

In the current scenario, the biggest driver of salinity changes is the addition of billions of tons of fresh meltwater due to (you guessed it) anthropogenic global warming which is also the biggest driver of temperatures changes. Not winds. Not the decreasing flow in the Gulf Stream and the AMOC.

Google what impacts ocean currents and you will discover that wind is a driver.

"...Ocean currents can be caused by wind, density differences in water masses caused by temperature and salinity variations, gravity, and events such as earthquakes or storms..."

What causes ocean currents? - NOAA Ocean Exploration

Ocean currents can be caused by wind, density differences in water masses caused by temperature and salinity variations, gravity, and events such as earthquakes or storms.

oceanexplorer.noaa.gov

Google what impacts wind currents and you will discover the sun is the primary source.

"...Unequal Heating: Effect of the Sun on Global Winds. The two main factors affecting wind patterns are 1) the heat distribution between the earth's equator and poles, and 2) the constant rotation of the planet. The sun is Earth's primary energy source..."

Wind Formation | manoa.hawaii.edu/ExploringOurFluidEarth

manoa.hawaii.edu

 

[Crick]

Google what impacts ocean currents and you will discover that wind is a driver.

"...Ocean currents can be caused by wind, density differences in water masses caused by temperature and salinity variations, gravity, and events such as earthquakes or storms..."

What causes ocean currents? - NOAA Ocean Exploration

Ocean currents can be caused by wind, density differences in water masses caused by temperature and salinity variations, gravity, and events such as earthquakes or storms.

oceanexplorer.noaa.gov

"...can be caused by...". I don't see anything there about spontaneous changes of major currents.

Google what impacts wind currents and you will discover the sun is the primary source.

"...Unequal Heating: Effect of the Sun on Global Winds. The two main factors affecting wind patterns are 1) the heat distribution between the earth's equator and poles, and 2) the constant rotation of the planet. The sun is Earth's primary energy source..."

Wind Formation | manoa.hawaii.edu/ExploringOurFluidEarth

manoa.hawaii.edu

Again, these are basic causative factors: Heating difference and the rotation of the planet (Coriolis). Coriolis isn't changing so what would be causing changes in the heating differences across the planet? I'll take a guess. It begins with an M and ends with ilankovitch.

 

[ding]

"...can be caused by...". I don't see anything there about spontaneous changes of major currents.

Again, these are basic causative factors: Heating difference and the rotation of the planet (Coriolis). Coriolis isn't changing so what would be causing changes in the heating differences across the planet? I'll take a guess. It begins with an M and ends with ilankovitch.

Wrong guess. It's the disruption/restoration of heat circulation from the Atlantic to the Arctic caused by changes in ocean currents which is caused by changes in ocean water salinity, ocean water density and changes in wind currents. Changes in ocean water salinity and ocean water density are due to changes in ocean water temperature, Changes in wind currents are due to changes in solar radiation. Changes in solar radiation are due to changes in solar output, solar flares and orbital forcing.

Your own link admits there is no known mechanism for how Milankovitch cycles trigger glacial and interglacial periods. Which is why they don't correlate perfectly with glacial and interglacial events.

 

[Crick]

Wrong guess. It's the disruption/restoration of heat circulation from the Atlantic to the Arctic caused by changes in ocean currents which is caused by changes in ocean water salinity, ocean water density and changes in wind currents. Changes in ocean water salinity and ocean water density are due to changes in ocean water temperature, Changes in wind currents are due to changes in solar radiation. Changes in solar radiation are due to changes in solar output, solar flares and orbital forcing.

Your own link admits there is no known mechanism for how Milankovitch cycles trigger glacial and interglacial periods. Which is why they don't correlate perfectly with glacial and interglacial events.

Bingo. ORBITAL FORCING

 

[ding]

Bingo. ORBITAL FORCING

lol, you really are a moron.

 

[Crick]

lol, you really are a moron.

I'm not the one just forced to refute his own claims.

 

[ding]

I'm not the one just forced to refute his own claims.

That you missed the part in my claim where I placed the minor role orbital forcing plays is all the proof I need of your butt ******* truth.