The US Government Bails Out Freddie and Fannie

[Toro]

Bloomberg.com: Worldwide

Bloomberg.com: Worldwide

 

[editec]

Hmmmmm...

Not good.

Freddie Mac is scheduled to sell $3 billion in short-term notes tomorrow, and Paulson's comments indicate a concern about a collapse in private investors' willingness to fund the firms. The companies issue debt to raise money for their purchases of mortgage securities.
Bond Sale
``This will shore up that debt offering,'' said Paul Miller, an equity analyst at Friedman Billings Ramsey & Co. in Arlington, Virginia. ``They need to make sure that that debt offering goes well and goes very well and they couldn't risk waking up tomorrow and having that offering go poorly.''

When the Fed must shore up the bond offerings of Freddie and Fannie by having to promise that if they renign on debt, the government will pay for it, things are pretty damned bleak.

And one wonders how confident the markets will be knowing that Freddie and Fanny can't cut it without such help?

 

[Toro]

I think the markets will rally because investors were worried about the collapse of Freddie and Fannie.

But its a mess.

 

[JimH52]

The White House and even the Democrats are telling us this is not a problem but when financial institutions begin the hit the skids...we are in toruble IMHO.

 

[JimH52]

I asked Curly and he agrees.

 

[Voltaire]

While the markets may very well rally like you say because of this "good" news, the moral hazard that has been created (and is now being reinforced) on Wall Street over the past several years is going to be disastrous when all is said and done. But then again, could we even afford to let those giants go down? The collapse of IndyMac alone wiped out 10% of the FDIC fund, according to the Wall Street Journal if I remember correctly.

Who knows anymore, I'm not an economist...

 

[Paulie]

But Fannie and Freddie both say capital is fine! Don't worry guys, everything will be A-OK!

We'll just bail out everyone! Who cares about the taxpayers, as long as the Dow stays high!

 

[editec]

While the markets may very well rally like you say because of this "good" news, the moral hazard that has been created (and is now being reinforced) on Wall Street over the past several years is going to be disastrous when all is said and done. But then again, could we even afford to let those giants go down? The collapse of IndyMac alone wiped out 10% of the FDIC fund, according to the Wall Street Journal if I remember correctly.

Who knows anymore, I'm not an economist...

Yeah...I think you got it, Volt.

Of course the real moral hazard is our attitude about making money by doing whatever it takes.

If amnkind is going to avoid this sort of disaster, it is going to have to reconsider its belief that everything that is important can be measured by economists and bean counters.

 

[Voltaire]

Yeah...I think you got it, Volt.

Of course the real moral hazard is our attitude about making money by doing whatever it takes.

If amnkind is going to avoid this sort of disaster, it is going to have to reconsider its belief that everything that is important can be measured by economists and bean counters.

Hi editec,
If you haven't read it, I highly recommend Deep Economy by Bill McKibben. It's basically about how we as Americans are going to have to move towards more local economies, particularly in the area of agriculture, if we hope to actually improve our living situations and live sustainably, rather than be fixated on "economic growth" - Very refreshing coming from an economist!

 

[editec]

But Fannie and Freddie both say capital is fine! Don't worry guys, everything will be A-OK!

We'll just bail out everyone! Who cares about the taxpayers, as long as the Dow stays high!

Thier decision to do this was not taken lightly, I'm sure.

I really think, if Freddie and Fannie go belly up, (what with them holding 50% of all real estate mortgages in the USA) that truly would throw us into a depression.

Banks would start dropping like flies. (and FDIC can't cover that, beleive me)

Getting a loan for RE impossible for a while.

The building and construction industry dead. Anyone selling into the home market (furniture appliances and so forth) dead.

Can you imagine what effect is would have on the economy if real estate values went down 50% or so, nationwide?

You think it's bad now, folks?

We ain't seen nothing yet.

If people feel poorer because the equity in their homes declines, naturally, even those who still are in the chips and who have secure jobs, spend less.

Consumer spending (CS)is about 70% of the GDP.

Changes in consumer spending effect the GDP dramatically.

When CS goes up, GDP goes up more. When CS goes down, GDP goes down even more.

Throw in a moribund real estate market (which I think accounts for about 5 or 6% of the GDP generally) plus the peripheral industries which count on housing sales to generate their business, and you've got an ugly economic picture.

So, while I totally agree that the taxpayer is bailing out tow privately owned financial institutions (and that sucks and creates that moral hazard) allowing those insitutions to fail could be worse.

Of course, I am not entirely conviced that this bail out will work, anyway.

These crappy mortgages that started the problem, PLUS the cost of energy and food, are putting people who have nothing to do with this bad mortgage problem on the skids.


We're drifting dangerous close to the event horizon of a truly horific economic meltdown in my opinion.

I personally think we need a massive period of inflation to save the middle /debtor class.

We've bailed out the rich folks, but it's the middle class which drives the economy.

As long as they're scrared to death of going broke, (and many of them are right about that, I suspect, too) this economic is on hold at best and going down at worst.

 

[bush lover]

Of course, I trust our President implicitly to do the right thing, because after all he was a highly successful self-made businessman himself. However, I would hope that our new President McCain will remove the outdated regulatory impediments to the free market that were put in by the Socialist FDR. I hope President McCain will also allow oil drilling, without unnecessary envirowacko rules, wherever necessary. Free markets always do the right thing if government stays out of the way.

 

[AllieBaba]

I say start investing in gold.

 

[Paulie]

I say start investing in gold.

Oh do you? You just started realizing that now? Funny, coming from you. You're the one around here who thinks this whole economic mess is just a liberal conspiracy.

A little late to be getting into gold, what with it closing around $970 today. Takes a lot of capital at this point to profit from it, but I see it somewhere around $1200 by year's end, with a lot higher to go still.

Silver is just as good an investment, as it can be bought in more quantity for less Dollars. And its value stays about as constant as gold.

So should I assume now that by your post, you are starting to come around? Or is it still all the liberals' fault?

 

[Paulie]

Thier decision to do this was not taken lightly, I'm sure.

I really think, if Freddie and Fannie go belly up, (what with them holding 50% of all real estate mortgages in the USA) that truly would throw us into a depression.

Banks would start dropping like flies. (and FDIC can't cover that, beleive me)

Getting a loan for RE impossible for a while.

The building and construction industry dead. Anyone selling into the home market (furniture appliances and so forth) dead.

Can you imagine what effect is would have on the economy if real estate values went down 50% or so, nationwide?

You think it's bad now, folks?

We ain't seen nothing yet.

If people feel poorer because the equity in their homes declines, naturally, even those who still are in the chips and who have secure jobs, spend less.

Consumer spending (CS)is about 70% of the GDP.

Changes in consumer spending effect the GDP dramatically.

When CS goes up, GDP goes up more. When CS goes down, GDP goes down even more.

Throw in a moribund real estate market (which I think accounts for about 5 or 6% of the GDP generally) plus the peripheral industries which count on housing sales to generate their business, and you've got an ugly economic picture.

So, while I totally agree that the taxpayer is bailing out tow privately owned financial institutions (and that sucks and creates that moral hazard) allowing those insitutions to fail could be worse.

Of course, I am not entirely conviced that this bail out will work, anyway.

These crappy mortgages that started the problem, PLUS the cost of energy and food, are putting people who have nothing to do with this bad mortgage problem on the skids.


We're drifting dangerous close to the event horizon of a truly horific economic meltdown in my opinion.

I personally think we need a massive period of inflation to save the middle /debtor class.

We've bailed out the rich folks, but it's the middle class which drives the economy.

As long as they're scrared to death of going broke, (and many of them are right about that, I suspect, too) this economic is on hold at best and going down at worst.

Perhaps this is a little cold, but who the fuck cares about Fannie and Freddie and their mortgages, when it means we as taxpayers have to YET AGAIN foot the bill?

Every bank that gets bailed out sends a signal to the rest of the private sector, that no matter the risks you take, you will ultimately be saved by Uncle Sam in the event that your risks end up biting you in the ass.

Lehman, Wachovia, WaMu...they're all next. How many banks do we have to pay for? Fucking let them all tank, let the fucking Dollar just tank, and START ALL OVER.

You can't even imagine the hole that's being dug right now.

We're going to collapse Roman style, mark my words. The world is not going to just lay down and eat our bombs forever. Eventually we're going to pay the price. And you can take that to the BANK.

 

[Wow]

Thier decision to do this was not taken lightly, I'm sure.

I really think, if Freddie and Fannie go belly up, (what with them holding 50% of all real estate mortgages in the USA) that truly would throw us into a depression.

Banks would start dropping like flies. (and FDIC can't cover that, beleive me)

Getting a loan for RE impossible for a while.

The building and construction industry dead. Anyone selling into the home market (furniture appliances and so forth) dead.

Can you imagine what effect is would have on the economy if real estate values went down 50% or so, nationwide?

You think it's bad now, folks?

We ain't seen nothing yet.

If people feel poorer because the equity in their homes declines, naturally, even those who still are in the chips and who have secure jobs, spend less.

Consumer spending (CS)is about 70% of the GDP.

Changes in consumer spending effect the GDP dramatically.

When CS goes up, GDP goes up more. When CS goes down, GDP goes down even more.

Throw in a moribund real estate market (which I think accounts for about 5 or 6% of the GDP generally) plus the peripheral industries which count on housing sales to generate their business, and you've got an ugly economic picture.

So, while I totally agree that the taxpayer is bailing out tow privately owned financial institutions (and that sucks and creates that moral hazard) allowing those insitutions to fail could be worse.

Of course, I am not entirely conviced that this bail out will work, anyway.

These crappy mortgages that started the problem, PLUS the cost of energy and food, are putting people who have nothing to do with this bad mortgage problem on the skids.


We're drifting dangerous close to the event horizon of a truly horific economic meltdown in my opinion.

I personally think we need a massive period of inflation to save the middle /debtor class.

We've bailed out the rich folks, but it's the middle class which drives the economy.

As long as they're scrared to death of going broke, (and many of them are right about that, I suspect, too) this economic is on hold at best and going down at worst.

If there were a depression, maybe Liberals would flee to Canada, Cuba and Venezuela?
Maybe that's just wishful thinking.

 

[editec]

Perhaps this is a little cold, but who the fuck cares about Fannie and Freddie and their mortgages, when it means we as taxpayers have to YET AGAIN foot the bill?

Every bank that gets bailed out sends a signal to the rest of the private sector, that no matter the risks you take, you will ultimately be saved by Uncle Sam in the event that your risks end up biting you in the ass.

Lehman, Wachovia, WaMu...they're all next. How many banks do we have to pay for? Fucking let them all tank, let the fucking Dollar just tank, and START ALL OVER.

You can't even imagine the hole that's being dug right now.

We're going to collapse Roman style, mark my words. The world is not going to just lay down and eat our bombs forever. Eventually we're going to pay the price. And you can take that to the BANK.

Well...philosophically I'm with you, of course. I've been here long enough that I must have pointed out that we really live in a mixed economy of socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor.

But practically, I'm reaslonable sure letting those investment firms go down would meltdown our economy overnight, and proably much of the world's economy right along with ours.

However, I do believe that the board members of both organizations should be stripped of their offices and their personal fortunes right down to their hand-made Italian shoes.

The stock holders should go down too.

Of course I don't doubt that many reading this missive are probably stockholders by proxie of some kind or the other. Sorry bout that, boys.

We scewed this banking and investment pooch when we deregulated and allowed banks to become investment firms, I think.

We forgot that all those arcane banking laws actually served a purpose, and it wasn't just to annoy libertopian jerkoffs.

Now a massive investment firm like this goes down and the freaking banks who are holding their paper and their stocks goes down, too.

Humptey Dumtey sat on a wall (street)
Humptey Dumtey had a great fall (in stock and debt holdings valuations)
All the Kings horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humptey Dumtey back in the black again.

 

[Charles_Main]

Well...philosophically I'm with you, of course. I've been here long enough that I must have pointed out that we really live in a mixed economy of socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor.

But practically, I'm reaslonable sure letting those investment firms go down would meltdown our economy overnight, and proably much of the world's economy right along with ours.

However, I do believe that the board members of both organizations should be stripped of their offices and their personal fortunes right down to their hand-made Italian shoes.

The stock holders should go down too.

Of course I don't doubt that many reading this missive are probably stockholders by proxie of some kind or the other. Sorry bout that, boys.

We scewed this banking and investment pooch when we deregulated and allowed banks to become investment firms, I think.

We forgot that all those arcane banking laws actually served a purpose, and it wasn't just to annoy libertopian jerkoffs.

Now a massive investment firm like this goes down and the freaking banks who are holding their paper and their stocks goes down, too.

Humptey Dumtey sat on a wall (street)
Humptey Dumtey had a great fall (in stock and debt holdings valuations)
All the Kings horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humptey Dumtey back in the black again.

Right, as much as it pains me to say it, we have no choice really we cant let them tank it will do to much damage.

 

[editec]

If there were a depression, maybe Liberals would flee to Canada, Cuba and Venezuela?
Maybe that's just wishful thinking.

Maybe its the result of not understanding this issue, why it's important, how it will probably wreck your nation and all, but still needing to remind us that you think you're actually conservative?

There is a lot of that going round, ya' know?

Voltaire,

Thanks for the book advise. I'll put it on the increasingly absurd list of books I really have to read before I die.

Of course, if I stopped obsessively writing, I could probably get through it, but that's another issue entirely.

So many books so little time.

 

[Paulie]

Right, as much as it pains me to say it, we have no choice really we cant let them tank it will do to much damage.

NO, bailing them out and borrowing and printing money to pay for it all is going to do too much damage. How many banks are you willing to pay for out of your pocket? How much are you willing to pay for a loaf of bread? A gallon of gas? When does the madness finally stop? There has to be a point where we say no more, because we simply can not afford it.

The government has been such a shining example for the rest of consumers. It's why idiots take out new debt to pay off old debt. A never ending vicious cycle of lunacy.

 

[Charles_Main]

NO, bailing them out and borrowing and printing money to pay for it all is going to do too much damage. How many banks are you willing to pay for out of your pocket? How much are you willing to pay for a loaf of bread? A gallon of gas? When does the madness finally stop? There has to be a point where we say no more, because we simply can not afford it.

The government has been such a shining example for the rest of consumers. It's why idiots take out new debt to pay off old debt. A never ending vicious cycle of lunacy.

It is a rock and a hard place situation man. Neither choice is going to feel good. However I think letting them tank would do more damage then bailing them out.

But then I always admit I could be wrong.