The U.S. and NATO Helped Trigger the Ukraine War.

[José]

Originally posted by NotfooledbyW​

western multicultural liberal democracy

Liberal democracy is perfectly OK...

Open societies where citizens have the right to speak their mind, choose their leaders, etc...

I don't want to see western liberal democracies replaced by autocracies like Russia.

But "Multicultural" is a batshit crazy ideology.

It is just code word for the destruction of the racial composition of a nation and white genocide.

 

[Toro]

 

[José]

Sweden has announced it will apply for a storm of russian bombs.

 

[Toro]

Sweden has announced it will apply for a storm of russian bombs.

And you wonder why all their neighbors hate Russia.

 

[Toro]

 

[eagle1462010]

I’m not saying you are Putin‘s bitch. You are Donald Trump‘s bitch. And being that by default you give aid and comfort to the enemy Adolf Putin. You believe Trump’s big election lie and that more than anything gives aid and comfort to the enemy Adolf Putin. It’s not what you are saying about Putin. It’s about what you are doing for him as a white nationalist anti-multicultural liberal democracy MAGA moron.

BS

 

[Toro]

Russians bring nothing except death and destruction.

 

[José]

Toro

You frequently express what I call "the democratic argument" (don't try to find it on the internet cause I made up the term). This argument in a nutshell conveys the idea that democratic states are intrinsically morally superior (considering the way they treat their own citizens let's leave their foreign policy aside).

I am a proponent of the democratic argument up to a point because it can be horribly misused.

Let me show you a valid use of the democratic argument:

"Toro told me he's gonna stop buying chinese products cuz he doesn't want China to become the world leader or even one of the world powers because once it become one of them, it will project its authoritarian values to the rest of the world."

This is a perfectly legitimate use of the "democratic argument" and it can be used not only by individual citizens like you but also by entire countries. If America, France or Italy decide to cut diplomatic relations with China to stop the country from becoming a fully industrialized nation they are well within their right.

An abuse of the democratic argument would be something like this:

China doesn't have a right to its own territorial integrity, including Hong Kong and Taiwan, because it will destroy those two democratic societies and replaced them with a comunist dictatorship.

China has a right to its territorial integrity regardless of the political and economic system it adopts capitalism, comunism, feudalism, etc... These are two completely unrelated topics. All the efforts should be made to convince China to preserve democratic freedoms in those territories but you cannot use the democratic argument to justify the continuation of 19th century british imperialism.

19th century America was a despicable racial dictatorship that was actively promoting the genocide of its indigenous population, enslaving people of black ancestry, denying civil rights to women, etc... Today this is correctly portrayed as a dark chapter in US history but you cannot use America's ethnocratic past to deny the right of the country to repel the 1812 british invasion even if 19th century Britain were a modern liberal democracy.

You should be extremely careful when you use the democratic argument because it goes both ways, Toro... It can be used against America and its allies too:

People here have endless debates about the nature of the ukrainian state. Some people say Maidan was not a revolution but a coup, they say the country is also run by oligarchs, Zelensky banned political parties and jailed political opponents etc... This is a scandalous abuse of the democratic argument being used against Ukraine.

Whether or not Ukraine is a democratic state is totally immaterial to the right of the country to defend itself against a foreign invasion. Even if the country were an european North Korea it would still have every right to fight the russian invaders.

Israel is a jewish racial dictatorship just like the America I described above and if we followed your beloved argument to its bitter final conclusions the world community should invade Israel and replace it by a democratic state.

The democratic argument you love so much is a legitimate argument that can be used but not ABUSED, Toro.

Russia has the same right to be angry with american military bases in her neighborhood today, being an autocratic state, as it had in 1993 when it was trying to implement a liberal democratic state. And let's not forget NATO expansion began BEFORE Russia's autocratic turn which weakens the democratic argument even further exposing the geopolical interests of western nations.

America had the right to oppose soviet military bases in Latin America and the Caribbean not because it threatened the security of a democratic state but because it threatened her security. Full stop. No adjectives needed.

Democratic states are not just a set of ideals of political and economic freedom... they are also national tribes, just like China, Russia, with their own selfish economic and political interests, dehumanization of foreigners (example, a homicide in America sometimes receives more press coverage than all the iraqi civiians killed in the gulf wars).

The democratic argument cannot be used as a facade to embellish each and every thing democratic societies do, Toro.

As most things in life, the democratic argument can and must be used but with moderation. We cannot allow it to become a "dictator" in our minds, if you forgive me the joke.

 

[badger2]

And you wonder why all their neighbors hate Russia.

View attachment 629995

Ukraine: Western intel operations for the last 70 years finally successful in turning it into an illegitimate state and drug hub for Europe with accompanying nazism.

 

[GLASNOST]

View attachment 629995

What kind of logic is this?

 

[GLASNOST]

Ukraine: Western intel operations for the last 70 years finally successful in turning it into an illegitimate state and drug hub for Europe with accompanying nazism.

Thank you for putting everything into its proper perspective.

 

[GLASNOST]

Russians bring nothing except death and destruction.

It looks a lot better than the "liberation" of Baghdad.

 

[Toro]

Toro

You frequently express what I call "the democratic argument" (don't try to find it on the internet cause I made up the term). This argument in a nutshell conveys the idea that democratic states are intrinsically morally superior (considering the way they treat their own citizens let's leave their foreign policy aside).

I am a proponent of the democratic argument up to a point because it can be horribly misused.

Let me show you a valid use of the democratic argument:

"Toro told me he's gonna stop buying chinese products cuz he doesn't want China to become the world leader or even one of the world powers because once it become one of them, it will project its authoritarian values to the rest of the world."

This is a perfectly legitimate use of the "democratic argument" and it can be used not only by individual citizens like you but also by entire countries. If America, France or Italy decide to cut diplomatic relations with China to stop the country from becoming a fully industrialized nation they are well within their right.

An abuse of the democratic argument would be something like this:

China doesn't have a right to its own territorial integrity, including Hong Kong and Taiwan, because it will destroy those two democratic societies and replaced them with a comunist dictatorship.

China has a right to its territorial integrity regardless of the political and economic system it adopts capitalism, comunism, feudalism, etc... These are two completely unrelated topics. All the efforts should be made to convince China to preserve democratic freedoms in those territories but you cannot use the democratic argument to justify the continuation of 19th century british imperialism.

19th century America was a despicable racial dictatorship that was actively promoting the genocide of its indigenous population, enslaving people of black ancestry, denying civil rights to women, etc... Today this is correctly portrayed as a dark chapter in US history but you cannot use America's ethnocratic past to deny the right of the country to repel the 1812 british invasion even if 19th century Britain were a modern liberal democracy.

You should be extremely careful when you use the democratic argument because it goes both ways, Toro... It can be used against America and its allies too:

People here have endless debates about the nature of the ukrainian state. Some people say Maidan was not a revolution but a coup, they say the country is also run by oligarchs, Zelensky banned political parties and jailed political opponents etc... This is a scandalous abuse of the democratic argument being used against Ukraine.

Whether or not Ukraine is a democratic state is totally immaterial to the right of the country to defend itself against a foreign invasion. Even if the country were an european North Korea it would still have every right to fight the russian invaders.

Israel is a jewish racial dictatorship just like the America I described above and if we followed your beloved argument to its bitter final conclusions the world community should invade Israel and replace it by a democratic state.

The democratic argument you love so much is a legitimate argument that can be used but not ABUSED, Toro.

Russia has the same right to be angry with american military bases in her neighborhood today, being an autocratic state, as it had in 1993 when it was trying to implement a liberal democratic state. And let's not forget NATO expansion began BEFORE Russia's autocratic turn which weakens the democratic argument even further exposing the geopolical interests of western nations.

America had the right to oppose soviet military bases in Latin America and the Caribbean not because it threatened the security of a democratic state but because it threatened her security. Full stop. No adjectives needed.

Democratic states are not just a set of ideals of political and economic freedom... they are also national tribes, just like China, Russia, with their own selfish economic and political interests, dehumanization of foreigners (example, a homicide in America sometimes receives more press coverage than all the iraqi civiians killed in the gulf wars).

The democratic argument cannot be used as a facade to embellish each and every thing democratic societies do, Toro.

As most things in life, the democratic argument can and must be used but with moderation. We cannot allow it to become a "dictator" in our minds, if you forgive me the joke.

tl;dr

 

[badger2]

Since the US media is now mentioning nerve agents, we must counter by linking the biolabs, because the former is no doubt CIA-MI5-6-sponsored.

Until verifying a URL: "US examined the possibility that Russia could disguise a chemical attack by mixing in riot-control agents."

This is most likely a referral fo mace, but it was Dilyana Gaytandzhieva who was tracking the pathologies at the Lugar Resaerch Center, recalling that Lugar early on not only studied organophosporus nerve agents, but also went with Obama to Russia. The mysterious deaths of Filippino workers at the Lugar Center (see Dilyana's video) may link to nerve agents, their being used as insecticides.

Dilyana links us back to where we should be to counter the propganda should it arise:

2017 Mar 17 Dilyana Gaytanzhieva on Porton Down and Novichok

Salisbury Nerve Agent Attack Reveals $70 Million Pentagon Program at Porton Down - Global Research

The Pentagon has spent at least $70 million on military experiments involving tests with deadly viruses and chemical agents at Porton Down – the UK military laboratory near the city of Salisbury. The secretive biological and chemical research facility is located just 13 km from where on 4th...

www.globalresearch.ca

Then linking with Helena with Dilyana's investigation of biolabs.

The Globalist Wolves of Ukraine

The Globalist Wolves of Ukraine

The Economist is already estimating the proverbial ‘cost’ to rebuild Ukraine – with a whopping price tag of $540 billion – which in construction terms can easily inflate to $675-$700 billion.

helenaglass.net

'The Economist is already estimating the proverbial 'cost' to rebuild Ukraine, with a whopping price tag of $540 billion -- which in construction terms can easily inflate to $675-$700 billion. Upgrades to the biolabs would add a few billion to the multi-billion price tag on 13-30 labs, but rebuilding ports to upgrade the Mafia Trafficking and 'lost revenue' would likely be a priority.'

We're not finished investigating biolabs.

 

[GLASNOST]

Since the US media is now mentioning nerve agents, we must counter by linking the biolabs, because the former is no doubt CIA-MI5-6-sponsored.

Until verifying a URL: "US examined the possibility that Russia could disguise a chemical attack by mixing in riot-control agents."

This is most likely a referral fo mace, but it was Dilyana Gaytandzhieva who was tracking the pathologies at the Lugar Resaerch Center, recalling that Lugar early on not only studied organophosporus nerve agents, but also went with Obama to Russia. The mysterious deaths of Filippino workers at the Lugar Center (see Dilyana's video) may link to nerve agents, their being used as insecticides.

Dilyana links us back to where we should be to counter the propganda should it arise:

2017 Mar 17 Dilyana Gaytanzhieva on Porton Down and Novichok

Salisbury Nerve Agent Attack Reveals $70 Million Pentagon Program at Porton Down - Global Research

The Pentagon has spent at least $70 million on military experiments involving tests with deadly viruses and chemical agents at Porton Down – the UK military laboratory near the city of Salisbury. The secretive biological and chemical research facility is located just 13 km from where on 4th...

www.globalresearch.ca

Then linking with Helena with Dilyana's investigation of biolabs.

The Globalist Wolves of Ukraine

The Globalist Wolves of Ukraine

The Economist is already estimating the proverbial ‘cost’ to rebuild Ukraine – with a whopping price tag of $540 billion – which in construction terms can easily inflate to $675-$700 billion.

helenaglass.net

'The Economist is already estimating the proverbial 'cost' to rebuild Ukraine, with a whopping price tag of $540 billion -- which in construction terms can easily inflate to $675-$700 billion. Upgrades to the biolabs would add a few billion to the multi-billion price tag on 13-30 labs, but rebuilding ports to upgrade the Mafia Trafficking and 'lost revenue' would likely be a priority.'

We're not finished investigating biolabs.

An extremely informative response. Thank you!

 

[José]

Originally posted by Toro
tl;dr

LOL... so let me sum it up for you.

I agree with you on the superiority of western values (except multiracialism that is an ideology whose insanity defies description).

But democratic values can't become a sacred cow we worship every morning and makes us legitimize everything democratic states do and take away all the rights of non-democratic states.

There is such a thing as making too much of a good argument.

 

[Toro]

LOL... so let me sum it up for you.

I agree with you on the superiority of western values (except multiracialism that is an ideology whose insanity defies description).

But democratic values can't become a sacred cow we worship every morning and makes us legitimize everything democratic states do and take away all the rights of non-democratic states.

There is such a thing as making too much of a good argument.

It’s complicated. We haven’t always been particularly good at promoting democracy. Most Latin Americans would be rightly skeptical of Americans saying democracy is the most important thing.

But in this case, it’s critical because it’s intertwined with self-determination. The Ukrainian people have repeatedly demonstrated that they don’t want to be under the thumb of Russia, especially under the thumb of someone like Putin who says Ukraine isn’t a real country and has implemented barbaric tactics in Syria and Chechnya.

Russians have subjugated and slaughtered millions of Ukrainians over the last century. Given the choice of being part of Europe or Russia, most Ukrainians choose Europe. And who can blame them?

 

[GLASNOST]

.... We haven’t always been particularly good at promoting democracy. .......

That's because you (USA) haven't got much of it. You can't claim "leader of democracy" but conduct yourselves as Fascists and expect others to see it as Democratic.

The US is wielding a double-edged sword where both sides are blunt. Real Democracies (western Europe et al.) scoff at the US with its inferior Democratic principles while the unenlightened (Middle East) are under the impression that American Fascism really is democracy and so they want no part of it.

 

[Toro]

That's because you (USA) haven't got much of it. You can't claim "leader of democracy" but conduct yourselves as Fascists and expect others to see it as Democratic.

The US is wielding a double-edged sword where both sides are blunt. Real Democracies (western Europe et al.) scoff at the US with its inferior Democratic principles while the unenlightened (Middle East) are under the impression that American Fascism really is democracy and so they want no part of it.

The US is much more democratic than Western Europe.

I’m Canadian. I also lived in the UK. When I first saw my ballot after I became an American citizen, I was flabbergasted. It was four pages long and had 33 different things I was to vote on, including “Soil and Conservation Officer.” We do this every two years. We are the most democratic nation on earth by far.

 

[GLASNOST]

The US is much more democratic than Western Europe.

I’m Canadian. I also lived in the UK. When I first saw my ballot after I became an American citizen, I was flabbergasted. It was four pages long and had 33 different things I was to vote on, including “Soil and Conservation Officer.” We do this every two years. We are the most democratic nation on earth by far.

You've been lied to and you ate it with a tablespoon. The US isn't even a full democracy. See for yourself: