The Tyre Nichols tragedy also offers an opportunity to have a real discussion about policing in the U.S. without making it 100% about race

[Seymour Flops]

Yes, race has to be part of any discussion about police interactions with citizens, suspects and criminals. But the Nichols case shows that race is not the primary reason that police/civilian relations are at an all-time low.

What we need to talk about is why police sometimes behave the way they do. Why police become bad actors, and just as importantly, why their fellow police don't immediately call them on it and put a stop to it.

Do we need to talk about the actions of the citizens, suspects and criminals? We can, sure. But that isn't really the point. Thugs are gonna be thugs, skels are gonna be skels, drunks are gonna be drunks and crackheads are gonna be crackheads. Those people are why we need police.

A zoo employee jumps into the gorilla cage and the gorilla charges at him and he shoots the gorilla, you can say he shot in self-defense, but it is silly to say "the gorilla shouldn't have charged at him."

So, it isn't helpful to say, "all he had to do was comply." Not everyone complies, and police should be and are trained how to gain compliance using only the force required. We need to look at why they go beyond that.

Or maybe we don't. Maybe we want to say that police are on the side of law and order, so they should have unquestioned discretion in how to deal with a non-compliant people. If that what we think, let's have that discussion.

But please. For one thread, can it not just be about race?

Thanks.

 

[Godboy]

Im not sure that they did anything wrong. They used force until they got cuffs on him, then they stopped. This was NOTHING like Rodney King. The moment they went slightly easy on him, he got up and ran off. They caught him, he still resisted, he was peppered sprayed and tased, though certainly not repeatedly.

You are NEVER going to get me to care about a criminal who dies while resisting arrest. Not EVER. I would WAAAAY rather have a criminal die than have him get away.

 

[mudwhistle]

Yes, race has to be part of any discussion about police interactions with citizens, suspects and criminals. But the Nichols case shows that race is not the primary reason that police/civilian relations are at an all-time low.

What we need to talk about is why police sometimes behave the way they do. Why police become bad actors, and just as importantly, why their fellow police don't immediately call them on it and put a stop to it.

Do we need to talk about the actions of the citizens, suspects and criminals? We can, sure. But that isn't really the point. Thugs are gonna be thugs, skels are gonna be skels, drunks are gonna be drunks and crackheads are gonna be crackheads. Those people are why we need police.

A zoo employee jumps into the gorilla cage and the gorilla charges at him and he shoots the gorilla, you can say he shot in self-defense, but it is silly to say "the gorilla shouldn't have charged at him."

So, it isn't helpful to say, "all he had to do was comply." Not everyone complies, and police should be and are trained how to gain compliance using only the force required. We need to look at why they go beyond that.

Or maybe we don't. Maybe we want to say that police are on the side of law and order, so they should have unquestioned discretion in how to deal with a non-compliant people. If that what we think, let's have that discussion.

But please. For one thread, can it not just be about race?

Thanks.

This story is about race. This is what diversity in policing gets you.
A bunch of thugs who aren't properly trained beating the shit out of a suspect.

 

[MarathonMike]

Im not sure that they did anything wrong. They used force until they got cuffs on him, then they stopped. This was NOTHING like Rodney King. The moment they went slightly easy on him, he got up and ran off. They caught him, he still resisted, he was peppered sprayed and tased, though certainly not repeatedly.

You are NEVER going to get me to care about a criminal who dies while resisting arrest. Not EVER. I would WAAAAY rather have a criminal die than have him get away.

Five cops beat a man to death who was no eminent threat to them. It wasn't a case of an offender reaching into his jacket forcing a split second decision to shoot or not. I don't see any way that can be justified. He was not a big man and could have easily been subdued on the ground with a wrestling hold until he was exhausted.

 

[DudleySmith]

Im not sure that they did anything wrong. They used force until they got cuffs on him, then they stopped. This was NOTHING like Rodney King. The moment they went slightly easy on him, he got up and ran off. They caught him, he still resisted, he was peppered sprayed and tased, though certainly not repeatedly.

You are NEVER going to get me to care about a criminal who dies while resisting arrest. Not EVER. I would WAAAAY rather have a criminal die than have him get away.

Which is why this is going to end up going nowhere. He died three days later after all, and we don't really know from what at this point. Allergic reaction to meds? The spray? Exposure to peanuts?

 

[JoeB131]

Yes, race has to be part of any discussion about police interactions with citizens, suspects and criminals. But the Nichols case shows that race is not the primary reason that police/civilian relations are at an all-time low.

Nope. It's always about Race. Nichols never would have been treated the way he was by police if he were white. That the officers in this case were black is immaterial. It shouldn't be, they should have more sensitivity, but the problem is how police treat black people and white people in this country is completely different.

What we need to talk about is why police sometimes behave the way they do. Why police become bad actors, and just as importantly, why their fellow police don't immediately call them on it and put a stop to it.

That's an easy one. Because every cop looks at an accused cop and says, "There but by the grace of God go I!" They can easily empathize more with the cop who makes a bad judgement call than a suspect on the receiving end of it.

Now, in the defense of the police, they mostly get it right. Police execute 10 million arrests and 50 million traffic stops every year, and most of those are resolved without lethal use of force. Only 1000 suspects are shot by police a year. Most of those are justified. The person was legitimately coming at a cop with a gun or a knife. So maybe 100 a year or so are questionable. That's STILL way too many.

Do we need to talk about the actions of the citizens, suspects and criminals? We can, sure. But that isn't really the point. Thugs are gonna be thugs, skels are gonna be skels, drunks are gonna be drunks and crackheads are gonna be crackheads. Those people are why we need police.

NO those people are why we haven't addressed the underlying causes.

We treat addiction as a criminal issue instead of a medical one.
We don't have programs to treat the mentally ill.
We have grinding poverty in this country.

A zoo employee jumps into the gorilla cage and the gorilla charges at him and he shoots the gorilla, you can say he shot in self-defense, but it is silly to say "the gorilla shouldn't have charged at him."

Hey, remember Harambe? He was a gorilla in a cage minding his own business when a kid crawled into his cage, and the zoo keepers made the decision to shoot this beautiful animal. There was a huge public outcry about it. People even demonized the mother. I wish suspects got as much concern as a gorilla in a zoo.

So, it isn't helpful to say, "all he had to do was comply." Not everyone complies, and police should be and are trained how to gain compliance using only the force required. We need to look at why they go beyond that.

Or maybe we don't. Maybe we want to say that police are on the side of law and order, so they should have unquestioned discretion in how to deal with a non-compliant people. If that what we think, let's have that discussion.

No, let's not.

What we need to do is train police in deescalation.
We need to identify the bad apples and fire them. YOu look at any cop involved in one of these incidents, they usually have a whole raft of prior civilian complaints.
We need to train cops to make better judgement calls. Chasing people for minor crimes when that could end in a fatal confrontation is foolish.

But please. For one thread, can it not just be about race?

When the cops treat white people the same way they treat black people, this conversation can totally not be about race.

 

[basquebromance]