The truth about Truman’s bombing Japan

[Unkotare]

All this talk about the servicemen who might have died in a hypothetical invasion, but where is the outrage over the servicemen who DID die on Iwo and Okinawa? Both of those battles took place after the scumbag fdr ignored rather than explored the overtures for surrender that MacArthur had informed him of.

Japan NEVER offered to surrender I have links to intercepts from the Japanese Government ALL they offered was a Ceasefire and return to 41 start lines. Where is your link to these supposed peace offerings?

What a sad, stupid old fool.

Chicago Tribune History

Trohan's article revealed that two days prior to Roosevelt's departure for Yalta, the president received a crucial, forty page memorandum from General Douglas MacArthur outlining five separate surrender overtures from highly placed Jap officials offering surrender terms which were virtually identical to the ones eventually dictated by the Allies to the Japanese in August.

The MacArthur communication was leaked to Trohan in early 1945 by Admiral William D. Leahy, FDR's chief of staff, who feared it would be classified as top secret for decades or even destroyed. The authenticity of Trohan's article (which elicited no editorial notice or re-publication in any other major U.S. newspaper), was never challenged by the White House. Former President Herbert Hoover personally queried General MacArthur on the Tribune's story and the general acknowledged its accuracy in every detail

5 of 6 generals were on the same page .....
The War Was Won Before Hiroshima—And the Generals Who Dropped the Bomb Knew It

~S~

.

 

[harmonica]

so the plan is to --------wait?? not use the bombs and ---wait???!!
till when??
out of about 20,000 Japanese on Iwo Jima, only about 300 taken prisoner/etc
they are NOT surrendering
they put up an even tougher defense on Okinawa--with OVER 10,000 American dead
I say again --ten THOUSAND American dead--over FORTY THOUSAND casualties

Neither one of those battles necessarily had to happen at all if the scumbag FDR hadn’t completely ignored the overtures for surrender the general MacArthur and forward it to him before the scum bag and left for Yalta. He glanced at the extensive report MacArthur had sent and dismissed it. Did not even take or mention the offer of surrender at Yalta.

they were not accepting unconditional surrender --plain and simple--can't be denied

 

[Unkotare]

.......
They were also intensely patriotic, too, and knew what their armies were doing to the Chinese and other ethnic groups in Asia, and that includes the Japanese here.

Unlike German and Italian Americans, no Japanese American was ever convicted of sabotage or espionage throughout the war. Comparing America's enemy in WWII with the brave, loyal Americans who comprised the most decorated army unit in US history is not only despicably anti-American, but it reveals your true motivation in all this with absolute clarity.

........... even today they lie in their own history books to their people about their conduct then. ....

Who told you that? China or Korea?

 

[Unkotare]

so the plan is to --------wait?? not use the bombs and ---wait???!!
till when??
out of about 20,000 Japanese on Iwo Jima, only about 300 taken prisoner/etc
they are NOT surrendering
they put up an even tougher defense on Okinawa--with OVER 10,000 American dead
I say again --ten THOUSAND American dead--over FORTY THOUSAND casualties

Neither one of those battles necessarily had to happen at all if the scumbag FDR hadn’t completely ignored the overtures for surrender the general MacArthur and forward it to him before the scum bag and left for Yalta. He glanced at the extensive report MacArthur had sent and dismissed it. Did not even take or mention the offer of surrender at Yalta.

they were not accepting unconditional surrender --plain and simple--can't be denied

The conditions we DID accept when all was said and done were exactly the same as those offered in the peace overtures that the scumbag fdr ignored long before many, many American servicemen died in subsequent battles that might not have had to take place.

 

[harmonica]

so the plan is to --------wait?? not use the bombs and ---wait???!!
till when??
out of about 20,000 Japanese on Iwo Jima, only about 300 taken prisoner/etc
they are NOT surrendering
they put up an even tougher defense on Okinawa--with OVER 10,000 American dead
I say again --ten THOUSAND American dead--over FORTY THOUSAND casualties

Neither one of those battles necessarily had to happen at all if the scumbag FDR hadn’t completely ignored the overtures for surrender the general MacArthur and forward it to him before the scum bag and left for Yalta. He glanced at the extensive report MacArthur had sent and dismissed it. Did not even take or mention the offer of surrender at Yalta.

they were not accepting unconditional surrender --plain and simple--can't be denied

The conditions we DID accept when all was said and done were exactly the same as those offered in the peace overtures that the scumbag fdr ignored long before many, many American servicemen died in subsequent battles that might not have had to take place.

please link/quotes

 

[Unkotare]

so the plan is to --------wait?? not use the bombs and ---wait???!!
till when??
out of about 20,000 Japanese on Iwo Jima, only about 300 taken prisoner/etc
they are NOT surrendering
they put up an even tougher defense on Okinawa--with OVER 10,000 American dead
I say again --ten THOUSAND American dead--over FORTY THOUSAND casualties

Neither one of those battles necessarily had to happen at all if the scumbag FDR hadn’t completely ignored the overtures for surrender the general MacArthur and forward it to him before the scum bag and left for Yalta. He glanced at the extensive report MacArthur had sent and dismissed it. Did not even take or mention the offer of surrender at Yalta.

they were not accepting unconditional surrender --plain and simple--can't be denied

The conditions we DID accept when all was said and done were exactly the same as those offered in the peace overtures that the scumbag fdr ignored long before many, many American servicemen died in subsequent battles that might not have had to take place.

please link/quotes

Chicago Tribune History

 

[harmonica]

so the plan is to --------wait?? not use the bombs and ---wait???!!
till when??
out of about 20,000 Japanese on Iwo Jima, only about 300 taken prisoner/etc
they are NOT surrendering
they put up an even tougher defense on Okinawa--with OVER 10,000 American dead
I say again --ten THOUSAND American dead--over FORTY THOUSAND casualties

Neither one of those battles necessarily had to happen at all if the scumbag FDR hadn’t completely ignored the overtures for surrender the general MacArthur and forward it to him before the scum bag and left for Yalta. He glanced at the extensive report MacArthur had sent and dismissed it. Did not even take or mention the offer of surrender at Yalta.

they were not accepting unconditional surrender --plain and simple--can't be denied

The conditions we DID accept when all was said and done were exactly the same as those offered in the peace overtures that the scumbag fdr ignored long before many, many American servicemen died in subsequent battles that might not have had to take place.

please link/quotes

Chicago Tribune History

hahahah
1. Chicago Tribune!! hahahaha
a.ONE reporter--wow--a whole ONE
2.

The unofficial Jap peace brokers

this was NOT the terms agreed to by the OFFICIAL Japanese hierarchy/Emperor/leaders

the REAL leaders' VOTE was tied 3-3 surrender/no surrender
if what you are saying is true/substantiated/etc, how come the vote was tied 3-3?
this shows Roosevelt was CORRECT to dismiss this crap

3. he departed for Yalta? Yalta conference 4 Feb 1945?
Iwo Jima starts 19 Feb
so he's going to call off the Iwo Jima forces because of this unsubstantiated memo?

Reports from Tokyo indicated that Japan meant to fight the war to a finish. On June 8 an imperial conference adopted “The Fundamental Policy to Be Followed Henceforth in the Conduct of the War,” which pledged to “prosecute the war to the bitter end in order to uphold the national polity, protect the imperial land, and accomplish the objectives for which we went to war.” Truman had no reason to believe that the proclamation meant anything other than what it said.

The Biggest Decision: Why We Had To Drop The Atomic Bomb | AMERICAN HERITAGE

your argument/link/etc is weak at best

 

[harmonica]

so the plan is to --------wait?? not use the bombs and ---wait???!!
till when??
out of about 20,000 Japanese on Iwo Jima, only about 300 taken prisoner/etc
they are NOT surrendering
they put up an even tougher defense on Okinawa--with OVER 10,000 American dead
I say again --ten THOUSAND American dead--over FORTY THOUSAND casualties

Neither one of those battles necessarily had to happen at all if the scumbag FDR hadn’t completely ignored the overtures for surrender the general MacArthur and forward it to him before the scum bag and left for Yalta. He glanced at the extensive report MacArthur had sent and dismissed it. Did not even take or mention the offer of surrender at Yalta.

they were not accepting unconditional surrender --plain and simple--can't be denied

The conditions we DID accept when all was said and done were exactly the same as those offered in the peace overtures that the scumbag fdr ignored long before many, many American servicemen died in subsequent battles that might not have had to take place.

please link/quotes

Chicago Tribune History

where is /link the actual memo ?

Too bad, the existence of the MacArthur memo can’t be confirmed.

China Matters: Was MacArthur a Japanese Agent?

 

[Unkotare]

Ah, now MacArthur was secretly a Japanese agent? You wanna stick with that one? Might be time to take your condition to the conspiracy forum.

 

[harmonica]

Ah, now MacArthur was secretly a Japanese agent? You wanna stick with that one? Might be time to take your condition to the conspiracy forum.

....do you have any more substantiated proof of this supposed unconditional surrender of the Japanese??
B29 airfields Marianas finally captured Nov 1944
the tremendous burning/bombing of Japan didn't get going till AFTER Feb 1945

Concerned about the relative failure of the B-29 offensive to deal any crippling blows to Japan, General LeMay issued a new directive on February 19. General LeMay had analyzed the structure of the Japanese economy, which depended heavily on cottage industries housed in cities close to major industrial areas. By destroying these feeder industries, the flow of vital components to the central plants could be slowed, disorganizing production of weapons vital to Japan. He decided to do this by using incendiary bombs rather than purely high-explosive bombs, which would, it was hoped, cause general conflagrations in large cities like Tokyo or Nagoya, spreading to some of the priority targets.

In addition, LeMay had concluded that the effects of the jet stream, cloud cover, and high operating altitudes were to blame for the failure of the B-29 raids to do any significant damage to the Japanese war industry

and the Japanese want to surrender in Feb 1945? but not in August 1945??
doesn't make sense

B-29 Attacks on Japan from the Marianas

 

[Unkotare]

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1945/1945-03-18a.html

 

[harmonica]

Ah, now MacArthur was secretly a Japanese agent? You wanna stick with that one? Might be time to take your condition to the conspiracy forum.

links to the memo??

 

[Unkotare]

"4 June 1945

MEMORANDUM FOR THE PRESIDENT:

The following information, transmitted by the OSS representative in Bern on 2 June, is a sequel to memorandum dated 12 May 1945 concerning an alleged Japanese peace feeler. The source of the information is the same German authority on the Far East who is considered anti-Nazi but pro-Japanese:

Source is in touch with Fujimura, who is understood to be one of the principal Japanese naval representatives in Europe and a former Assistant Naval Attache in Berlin. Fujimura is reported to be in direct and secret contact by cable with the Japanese Minister of Marine [Navy?] and is believed to enjoy the confidence of the Japanese Government.

Fujimura indicated to source that the Navy circles who now control [?] the Japanese Government would be willing to surrender but wish, if possible, to save some face from the present wreckage. These Navy circles, he declares, particularly stress the necessity of preserving the Emperor in order to avoid Communism and chaos. Fujimura emphasizes that Japan can not supply itself with basically essential foodstuffs and is dependent upon Korea for sugar and rice. He also insists that Japan needs to retain some of its merchant marine for necessary food imports."

Memoranda for the President: Japanese Feelers — Central Intelligence Agency

 

[Unkotare]

"
MEMORANDUM FOR THE PRESIDENT:

The following information, received from Mr. Allen Dulles in Wiesbaden, dated 12 and 13 July, concerns a new Japanese attempt to approach Allied authorities through OSS representatives in Switzerland:

Per Jacobson,14 a Swedish national and economic adviser to the Bank for International Settlements, has been approached by Kojiro Kitamura, a director of the Bank, a representative of the Yokohama Specie Bank and former financial attache in Berlin. Kitamura indicated to Jacobson that he was anxious to establish immediate contact with American representatives and implied that the only condition on which Japan would insist with respect to surrender would be some consideration for the Japanese Imperial family. Kitamura showed that he was completely familiar with OSS operations which led to the surrender of the German forces in North Italy, and declared that be wished to establish a contact similar to that made by General Karl Wolff.

According to Jacobson, Kitamura is acting with the consent of the Japanese Minister to Switzerland, Shunichi Kase, and is working with Brigadier General Kiyotomi Okamoto, a former Japanese Military Attache in Bern. [Okamoto is probably the chief of Japanese Intelligence in Europe.] Kitamura claims that the Japanese group in Switzerland has direct communications with Tokyo and is in a position to make definite commitments.

(Responsible OSS cut-out sources who talked with Jacobson at Basel believe that the Kitamura approach was initiated locally rather than on the basis of instructions from Tokyo. Hence it is difficult to assess the seriousness of the approach.

(The OSS representative in Bern reports that Jacobson has urgently requested him to come to Basel to see him this coming week-end. The OSS representative has declined the invitation but has told Jacobson that he could see him in Bern15 on Sunday, 15 July. The OSS representative in Bern will see Jacobson only to obtain such intelligence as Jacobson is able to give, and expects to treat the entire matter with the greatest caution and reserve.)"

 

[Unkotare]

"
MEMORANDUM FOR THE PRESIDENT:

The following information, a sequel to a memorandum dated 13 July ... has been received from Mr. Allen Dulles in Wiesbaden. ...

Jacobsson reports that between 10 and 13 July he had a series of conferences with Yoshimura, a Japanese official attached to the Bank for International Settlements, and Kojiro Kitamura, a director of the Bank, representative of the Yokohama Specie Bank, and former financial attache in Berlin. Yoshimura and Kitamura claim to be acting in consultation with the Japanese Minister to Switzerland, Shunichi Kase, and Brigadier General Kiyotomi Okamoto, former Japanese military attache in Bern, who now is believed to be chief of Japanese Intelligence in Europe. Yoshimura and Kitamura claim further that Kase and Okamoto have direct and secret means of communicating with the Japanese Chief of Staff. Yosbimura also claims that the peace group which he represents includes General Ushijiro Umezu, Army Chief of Staff;16 Admiral Mitsumasa Yonai, Minister of Navy; and Shigenori Togo, Foreign Minister.

Yoshimura and Kitamura appeared to Jacobsson no longer to question the principle of unconditional surrender, though at one point they asked whether unconditional military and naval surrender might not be sufficient. On his own initiative Jacobsson replied that such a proposal would not be acceptable to the Allies but would be considered merely a quibble.17Both Japanese officials raised the question of maintaining Japanese territorial integrity, but they apparently did not mean to include Manchukuo, Korea or Formosa.

Throughout discussions with Jacobsson, the Japanese officials stressed only two points: (a) the preservation of the Emperor, and (b) the possibility of returning to the constitution promulgated in 1889. Kitamura prepared and presented to Jacobsson a memorandum asking him to sound out Mr. Dulles' opinion on the two points.

(Mr. Dulles feels that these two Japanese are insisting on the retention of the Emperor because they feel that he alone can take effective action with respect to surrender and that some hope of survival must be held out to him in order to gain his support for unconditional surrender.)

Later Yoshimura and Kitamura prepared a second memorandum in which they asked how, if Tokyo were ready to proceed, conversations could be arranged with Allied representatives and what form of authorization would be required."

 

[harmonica]

"4 June 1945

MEMORANDUM FOR THE PRESIDENT:

The following information, transmitted by the OSS representative in Bern on 2 June, is a sequel to memorandum dated 12 May 1945 concerning an alleged Japanese peace feeler. The source of the information is the same German authority on the Far East who is considered anti-Nazi but pro-Japanese:

Source is in touch with Fujimura, who is understood to be one of the principal Japanese naval representatives in Europe and a former Assistant Naval Attache in Berlin. Fujimura is reported to be in direct and secret contact by cable with the Japanese Minister of Marine [Navy?] and is believed to enjoy the confidence of the Japanese Government.

Fujimura indicated to source that the Navy circles who now control [?] the Japanese Government would be willing to surrender but wish, if possible, to save some face from the present wreckage. These Navy circles, he declares, particularly stress the necessity of preserving the Emperor in order to avoid Communism and chaos. Fujimura emphasizes that Japan can not supply itself with basically essential foodstuffs and is dependent upon Korea for sugar and rice. He also insists that Japan needs to retain some of its merchant marine for necessary food imports."

Memoranda for the President: Japanese Feelers — Central Intelligence Agency

I saw this
is this the MacArthur memo or not?
plain and simple--they did not surrender until AFTER and because of the A bombs

 

[Unkotare]

"
MEMORANDUM FOR THE PRESIDENT:

* * *

Immediately following is a summary of a report by Per Jacobsson, a Swedish national and economic adviser to the Bank for International Settlements, transmitted to Mr. Dulles through an intermediary:

The Japanese Chief of Staff has acknowledged without comment a long cable which Brigadier General Kiyotomi Okamoto sent from Switzerland on 19 July. Okamoto's telegram reportedly stated that Japan has lost the war and must promptly accept the consequences. ...

The Japanese Foreign Minister has also acknowledged a detailed report from Shunichi Kase, Japanese Minister in Bern. Kase's report, sent on or about 21 July, included (a) Mr. Grew's statement of 10 July, (b) a memorandum from Kojiro Kitamura, director of the Bank for International Settlements and former financial attache in Berlin, who has been active in the current Japanese approaches to Mr. Dulles, and (c) a statement of Kase's own position. The Foreign Minister's reply to Kase's message contained the following query: "Is that all you have to say?" Kase interprets this query as an invitation to continue peace approaches.

The recent tripartite ultimatum to Japan21 has been the chief topic of discussion among Japanese groups in Switzerland. Their first reaction, on the basis of excerpts published in the Swiss press, was that (a) the proclamation showed a lack of understanding of Japanese character, (b) the document should have not been framed on a basis of "take it or leave it," (c) the inclusion of China as a signatory represented an "added element of humiliation," and (d) the document should have been sent through private channels rather than publicly. After receiving the full English text through Jacobsson, and after further study, the attitude of the group changed, and the proclamation was accepted as an "astute document which left a possible way out." The group was particularly impressed by "unconditional surrender" in connection with the "Japanese armed forces" and to the reference to revival and strengthening of democratic tendencies among the Japanese people. As a result, a telegram stressing these points was to be sent to Tokyo on 30 July.

The following is a summary of a memorandum to Mr. Dulles from the Japanese group in contact with Per Jacobsson. Jacobsson transmitted this memo along with his own report summarized above.

The Japanese group emphasizes that it is hoping for some decision within a week unless "resistance is too great." The Allies should not take "too seriously" what was said over the Tokyo radio about the tripartite proclamation.22 This radio comment was merely "propaganda to maintain morale in Japan." The real reply will be given through some "official channel," possibly by Minister Kase or General Okamoto, if an official Government reply is not made over the Tokyo radio.

Mr. Dulles also has been informed, by a German authority on the Far East living in Switzerland who is one of his regular contacts, that Yosikazu23 Fujimura, a Japanese Navy representative in Bern, has sent seven long cables to his superiors in Tokyo during the past two months urging immediate cessation of hostilities. His superiors cabled in reply that the Japanese Navy no longer is able to "act alone," and instructed Fujimura not to take the initiative without orders from Tokyo, but to maintain his "most valuable contacts.""

 

[harmonica]

"4 June 1945

MEMORANDUM FOR THE PRESIDENT:

The following information, transmitted by the OSS representative in Bern on 2 June, is a sequel to memorandum dated 12 May 1945 concerning an alleged Japanese peace feeler. The source of the information is the same German authority on the Far East who is considered anti-Nazi but pro-Japanese:

Source is in touch with Fujimura, who is understood to be one of the principal Japanese naval representatives in Europe and a former Assistant Naval Attache in Berlin. Fujimura is reported to be in direct and secret contact by cable with the Japanese Minister of Marine [Navy?] and is believed to enjoy the confidence of the Japanese Government.

Fujimura indicated to source that the Navy circles who now control [?] the Japanese Government would be willing to surrender but wish, if possible, to save some face from the present wreckage. These Navy circles, he declares, particularly stress the necessity of preserving the Emperor in order to avoid Communism and chaos. Fujimura emphasizes that Japan can not supply itself with basically essential foodstuffs and is dependent upon Korea for sugar and rice. He also insists that Japan needs to retain some of its merchant marine for necessary food imports."

Memoranda for the President: Japanese Feelers — Central Intelligence Agency

any way these are worthless--the votes of the hierarchy are what counted

 

[harmonica]

"
MEMORANDUM FOR THE PRESIDENT:

* * *

Immediately following is a summary of a report by Per Jacobsson, a Swedish national and economic adviser to the Bank for International Settlements, transmitted to Mr. Dulles through an intermediary:

The Japanese Chief of Staff has acknowledged without comment a long cable which Brigadier General Kiyotomi Okamoto sent from Switzerland on 19 July. Okamoto's telegram reportedly stated that Japan has lost the war and must promptly accept the consequences. ...

The Japanese Foreign Minister has also acknowledged a detailed report from Shunichi Kase, Japanese Minister in Bern. Kase's report, sent on or about 21 July, included (a) Mr. Grew's statement of 10 July, (b) a memorandum from Kojiro Kitamura, director of the Bank for International Settlements and former financial attache in Berlin, who has been active in the current Japanese approaches to Mr. Dulles, and (c) a statement of Kase's own position. The Foreign Minister's reply to Kase's message contained the following query: "Is that all you have to say?" Kase interprets this query as an invitation to continue peace approaches.

The recent tripartite ultimatum to Japan21 has been the chief topic of discussion among Japanese groups in Switzerland. Their first reaction, on the basis of excerpts published in the Swiss press, was that (a) the proclamation showed a lack of understanding of Japanese character, (b) the document should have not been framed on a basis of "take it or leave it," (c) the inclusion of China as a signatory represented an "added element of humiliation," and (d) the document should have been sent through private channels rather than publicly. After receiving the full English text through Jacobsson, and after further study, the attitude of the group changed, and the proclamation was accepted as an "astute document which left a possible way out." The group was particularly impressed by "unconditional surrender" in connection with the "Japanese armed forces" and to the reference to revival and strengthening of democratic tendencies among the Japanese people. As a result, a telegram stressing these points was to be sent to Tokyo on 30 July.

The following is a summary of a memorandum to Mr. Dulles from the Japanese group in contact with Per Jacobsson. Jacobsson transmitted this memo along with his own report summarized above.

The Japanese group emphasizes that it is hoping for some decision within a week unless "resistance is too great." The Allies should not take "too seriously" what was said over the Tokyo radio about the tripartite proclamation.22 This radio comment was merely "propaganda to maintain morale in Japan." The real reply will be given through some "official channel," possibly by Minister Kase or General Okamoto, if an official Government reply is not made over the Tokyo radio.

Mr. Dulles also has been informed, by a German authority on the Far East living in Switzerland who is one of his regular contacts, that Yosikazu23 Fujimura, a Japanese Navy representative in Bern, has sent seven long cables to his superiors in Tokyo during the past two months urging immediate cessation of hostilities. His superiors cabled in reply that the Japanese Navy no longer is able to "act alone," and instructed Fujimura not to take the initiative without orders from Tokyo, but to maintain his "most valuable contacts.""

in other words and to be more concise = no surrender

 

[harmonica]

--the Emperor, who cast the deciding vote, mentions the A bombs as the reason for surrendering
the vote was tied

''The enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is indeed incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives,'' the emperor said

A Leader Who Took Japan to War, to Surrender, and Finally to Peace

this is the walk off home run