The truth about taxes

[NoTeaPartyPleez]

Social security is forced dependence and forced poverty.

At least I don't have to feed that particular government pig anymore.

Really? That bad?

Because I see a program that keeps an estimated 14-22 million (mostly elderly) above the poverty line (depending on whom you ask).

The program assists widows and their kids in making ends meet.

It helps the disabled survive.

You don't pay payroll taxes? You must be a state employee...a public school teacher covered by a collectively bargained retirement plan? Well done. Or you're part of the clergy. No disrespect Father.

Starting in the year 2012, the average MONTHLY income for those retired and depending on social security is $1,230.00. When you consider the current gas prices, as well as the steadily increasing cost of food, does that sound like a substantial amount to live on? Does that really sound like a major accomplishment by our government? Then we wonder why we have seniors who are willing to work as greeters for your local Walmart.


SOURCE: Average monthly Social Security benefit for a retired worker

Hey, $1230 a month is better than $0 a month. You seem like a reasonably intelligent person. Which would you take?

 

[Avatar4321]

Really? That bad?

Because I see a program that keeps an estimated 14-22 million (mostly elderly) above the poverty line (depending on whom you ask).

The program assists widows and their kids in making ends meet.

It helps the disabled survive.

You don't pay payroll taxes? You must be a state employee...a public school teacher covered by a collectively bargained retirement plan? Well done. Or you're part of the clergy. No disrespect Father.

Starting in the year 2012, the average MONTHLY income for those retired and depending on social security is $1,230.00. When you consider the current gas prices, as well as the steadily increasing cost of food, does that sound like a substantial amount to live on? Does that really sound like a major accomplishment by our government? Then we wonder why we have seniors who are willing to work as greeters for your local Walmart.


SOURCE: Average monthly Social Security benefit for a retired worker

Hey, $1230 a month is better than $0 a month. You seem like a reasonably intelligent person. Which would you take?

False dichotemy.

Those are not the only choices we are allowed to choose from.

 

[NoTeaPartyPleez]

The Dow is at 16000 because a corrupt and inept government has made the stock market the ONLY hedge most Americans have against runaway inflation--inflation that the government tries to hide by keeping interest rates artificially low and flat out lies about when it says runaway government spending is not creating negative inflationary pressures. Greece is the developed country that is currently experiencing the worst economy in the world. But its stock market is doing just fine for the same reason ours is.

The corruption comes from the 5% who own 82% of the stock. Who are they? You only have to look as far as the Forbes 400 to find them. They OWN the gov't, and that is why it's corrupt.

 

[Indeependent]

I have never seen more unpaid cheerleaders for the wealthy than in this thread.

The rich are engaging in class warfare against you. And they are winning hands down.

They are rich. You are not.

"Rich" means the relative gap / disparity between their net worth and yours.

You are labor. Labor is to be controlled because that keeps the relative gap between what they have and you have operational and that keeps them in the driver's seat.

Labor is necessary to productivity. Not everyone can be the rich boss. Someone has to do the work. And doing that necessary work should not relegate the workforce to living paycheck to paycheck with no prospect or hint of security. Redistribution is what government does. Kick a little bit of that gravy to the working men and women.

Honestly, stop helping these guys that own you. They don't need your help.

You know who does need your help? People just like you: Labor.

The great thing about this country is opportunity to educate, learn, and apply yourself to achieve a better way of life than the one you currently find yourself in. No one is stopping you from achieving a business degree, own your own company, and treating your employees to the benefits YOU feel they deserve. Why look to others to set the example, when you can step out with a little "initiative" and lead by example? Show the rest of the business owners in America, just how easy it is to run a company and leave your employees with a better way of life. There are two kinds of people in this world; the complainers who's only key role is to find blame while getting nothing done, and the achievers who set out to actually make a difference. Which are you?

Yep, getting a business loan is SOOOOOO easy!
Now that we've gotten past THAT fantasy.

 

[NoTeaPartyPleez]

Starting in the year 2012, the average MONTHLY income for those retired and depending on social security is $1,230.00. When you consider the current gas prices, as well as the steadily increasing cost of food, does that sound like a substantial amount to live on? Does that really sound like a major accomplishment by our government? Then we wonder why we have seniors who are willing to work as greeters for your local Walmart.


SOURCE: Average monthly Social Security benefit for a retired worker

Hey, $1230 a month is better than $0 a month. You seem like a reasonably intelligent person. Which would you take?

False dichotemy.

Those are not the only choices we are allowed to choose from.

1. It's spelled dichotomy
2. A "false dichotomy" is redundant.
3. What are the other choices we are allowed to choose from?

 

[Foxfyre]

Starting in the year 2012, the average MONTHLY income for those retired and depending on social security is $1,230.00. When you consider the current gas prices, as well as the steadily increasing cost of food, does that sound like a substantial amount to live on? Does that really sound like a major accomplishment by our government? Then we wonder why we have seniors who are willing to work as greeters for your local Walmart.


SOURCE: Average monthly Social Security benefit for a retired worker

Hey, $1230 a month is better than $0 a month. You seem like a reasonably intelligent person. Which would you take?

False dichotemy.

Those are not the only choices we are allowed to choose from.

Exactly. If the same American drawing that $1230 a month had been allowed to invest that money instead of paying it to the government all those years, the person would almost surely have a much more comfortable retirement when he/she decided to retire. PLUS if he or she did not need or use the money it can be given to charity or bequeathed to heirs or whatever the person chooses to do with it. Any unused portions of all the money we pay into social security is swallowed up by the government and is available to nobody.

 

[NoTeaPartyPleez]

I have never seen more unpaid cheerleaders for the wealthy than in this thread.

The rich are engaging in class warfare against you. And they are winning hands down.

They are rich. You are not.

"Rich" means the relative gap / disparity between their net worth and yours.

You are labor. Labor is to be controlled because that keeps the relative gap between what they have and you have operational and that keeps them in the driver's seat.

Labor is necessary to productivity. Not everyone can be the rich boss. Someone has to do the work. And doing that necessary work should not relegate the workforce to living paycheck to paycheck with no prospect or hint of security. Redistribution is what government does. Kick a little bit of that gravy to the working men and women.

Honestly, stop helping these guys that own you. They don't need your help.

You know who does need your help? People just like you: Labor.

The great thing about this country is opportunity to educate, learn, and apply yourself to achieve a better way of life than the one you currently find yourself in. No one is stopping you from achieving a business degree, own your own company, and treating your employees to the benefits YOU feel they deserve. Why look to others to set the example, when you can step out with a little "initiative" and lead by example? Show the rest of the business owners in America, just how easy it is to run a company and leave your employees with a better way of life. There are two kinds of people in this world; the complainers who's only key role is to find blame while getting nothing done, and the achievers who set out to actually make a difference. Which are you?

That's all terrific and those are words to live by. How does any of the things you've mentioned change the fact that the super-vast majority of people in the US are part of Labor and not part of the entreprenurial class?

You and I part ways on your reductionist closing. Complainers and Achievers? You do know that Labor does all of the productive work - the heavy lifting so to speak? Without Labor, you have empty factories, vacant restaurants, and practically every other economic pursuit under the sun is dead in the water. Your implicit shot at Labor (complainers) falls on deaf ears. Look at the numbers. The owners of this country have seen their wealth go through the roof over the decades. And Labor? 45 million of them can't even get a decent health insurance plan.

I shed no tears for the wealthy. They don't need me...except to do the work from which they prosper quite well.

These flowery, pie-in-the-sky ramblings are fun to read but worthless in real life. Shakles must not realize we need people to drive buses, fly airplanes, stock the produce shelves at grocery stores and teach our children how to read.

 

[NoTeaPartyPleez]

Hey, $1230 a month is better than $0 a month. You seem like a reasonably intelligent person. Which would you take?

False dichotemy.

Those are not the only choices we are allowed to choose from.

Exactly. If the same American drawing that $1230 a month had been allowed to invest that money instead of paying it to the government all those years, the person would almost surely have a much more comfortable retirement when he/she decided to retire. PLUS if he or she did not need or use the money it can be given to charity or bequeathed to heirs or whatever the person chooses to do with it. Any unused portions of all the money we pay into social security is swallowed up by the government and is available to nobody.

Ahahahahaa......So what do we do then with the person who did just that, took the risk of investment, and then lost the investment? Just say no when he or she applies for SS when they turn 65 and have nothing?

Now if you had said savings account instead of investment, that would make more sense.

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

The great thing about this country is opportunity to educate, learn, and apply yourself to achieve a better way of life than the one you currently find yourself in. No one is stopping you from achieving a business degree, own your own company, and treating your employees to the benefits YOU feel they deserve. Why look to others to set the example, when you can step out with a little "initiative" and lead by example? Show the rest of the business owners in America, just how easy it is to run a company and leave your employees with a better way of life. There are two kinds of people in this world; the complainers who's only key role is to find blame while getting nothing done, and the achievers who set out to actually make a difference. Which are you?

That's all terrific and those are words to live by. How does any of the things you've mentioned change the fact that the super-vast majority of people in the US are part of Labor and not part of the entreprenurial class?

You and I part ways on your reductionist closing. Complainers and Achievers? You do know that Labor does all of the productive work - the heavy lifting so to speak? Without Labor, you have empty factories, vacant restaurants, and practically every other economic pursuit under the sun is dead in the water. Your implicit shot at Labor (complainers) falls on deaf ears. Look at the numbers. The owners of this country have seen their wealth go through the roof over the decades. And Labor? 45 million of them can't even get a decent health insurance plan.

I shed no tears for the wealthy. They don't need me...except to do the work from which they prosper quite well.

This is all a part of the choices we make for ourselves, the lifestyle we are willing to build for ourselves. Do you expect me to look to the individual who chooses to work at a fast food chain as a manager and say that "I" should have more of an understanding for those decisions they make? Should their compensation between them and that of an educated experience level of a surgeon be less of a salary gap? Just how are we to determine someone's pay scale if not based on education and skill level? I'm not willing to pay someone a salary of $70,000 for flipping burgers, sorry. If you desire to make a better life for yourself, then stop with the wallowing sad story, and work to achieve a salaried job you are happy with.

I also see that you are unwilling to demonstrate exactly how a business "ought" to be run through your demonstration of 'good faith' as owner. Why should such an opportunity discourage you, if all the tools to learn how to attain and run a business are there? Why stop at simply being among the labor force, and not strive for something that is more gratifying to your cause?

 

[Foxfyre]

False dichotemy.

Those are not the only choices we are allowed to choose from.

Exactly. If the same American drawing that $1230 a month had been allowed to invest that money instead of paying it to the government all those years, the person would almost surely have a much more comfortable retirement when he/she decided to retire. PLUS if he or she did not need or use the money it can be given to charity or bequeathed to heirs or whatever the person chooses to do with it. Any unused portions of all the money we pay into social security is swallowed up by the government and is available to nobody.

Ahahahahaa......So what do we do then with the person who did just that, took the risk of investment, and then lost the investment? Just say no when he or she applies for SS when they turn 65 and have nothing?

Now if you had said savings account instead of investment, that would make more sense.

There is not a single person living who has put their savings into careful consevative investments over their working life who ever lost everything. And even taking the enormous hits in the market such as all of us investors took when the dot.com bubble burst in the 1990's, when 9/11 happened or Katrina hit or the housing bubble burst in the 2000's, we were still considerably better off than anything social security could ever do for us and we didn't impose a huge unsustainable entitlement that produces more drag on the economy than it contributes.

And even if somebody did lose everything, where is it written that poverty guaranteed by the government is preferable to allowing liberty for people to take the risks they choose to take?

 

[LogikAndReazon]

Yep the rich only got that way from exploiting the poor....they is owed !!! Lol

 

[Doubletap]

Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others.

 

[Spiderman]

Social security is forced dependence and forced poverty.

At least I don't have to feed that particular government pig anymore.

Really? That bad?

Because I see a program that keeps an estimated 14-22 million (mostly elderly) above the poverty line (depending on whom you ask).

The program assists widows and their kids in making ends meet.

It helps the disabled survive.

You don't pay payroll taxes? You must be a state employee...a public school teacher covered by a collectively bargained retirement plan? Well done. Or you're part of the clergy. No disrespect Father.

If you took the money taken from people for SS and the employer match and held it in a private account for the length of a working career then you would have a real nest egg

And since I am on no one's payroll I do not pay payroll taxes. All my income is taxed as ordinary income and therefore not subject to payroll taxes.

You might want to learn a little bit about the tax code if you're going to make assumptions like the ones in your post.

 

[Foxfyre]

The worst problem, as is being discussed on the fiat money thread, is that to sustain social security and other entitlements that cannot sustain themselves, the government has to print more and more money that is tied to nothing of value. And even though they lie constantly to us that inflation is being held in check, we all see the prices we pay for things and we know that it is not being held in check. But worst, the artificial stability the government pretends is damning up all that worthless currency behind a barrier that is certain to break. And the tsunami of inflation will be horrendous--worse than it was even during the Carter administration in the 1970's.

And THAT will so further impoverish those poor people who are totally dependent on their social security income that will buy a fraction of what it once did. No way the COLA's are keeping up with inflation now. And it will be much worse.

 

[RightDown]

The Dow is at 16000 because a corrupt and inept government has made the stock market the ONLY hedge most Americans have against runaway inflation--inflation that the government tries to hide by keeping interest rates artificially low and flat out lies about when it says runaway government spending is not creating negative inflationary pressures. Greece is the country that is currently experiencing the worst economy among developed countries in the world. But its stock market is doing just fine for the same reason ours is.

Private sources crashed our economy. The government failed to regulate the financial sector properly. Runaway greed and criminality amongst the financial sector players doomed our economy necessitating a bailout by the gov. in the trillions.

Greece's economy is nothing like the US economy. The US is monetarily sovereign. Greece, as a member of the Euro-nations, is not.

Greece's federal government must live within means set by the Euro. The US federal government has no means to live within. The only boundary to the government's ability to pay any bill on demand is that of inflation. And the US has been flirting more with deflation over the past few years...no COLAs, remember?

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

The great thing about this country is opportunity to educate, learn, and apply yourself to achieve a better way of life than the one you currently find yourself in. No one is stopping you from achieving a business degree, own your own company, and treating your employees to the benefits YOU feel they deserve. Why look to others to set the example, when you can step out with a little "initiative" and lead by example? Show the rest of the business owners in America, just how easy it is to run a company and leave your employees with a better way of life. There are two kinds of people in this world; the complainers who's only key role is to find blame while getting nothing done, and the achievers who set out to actually make a difference. Which are you?

That's all terrific and those are words to live by. How does any of the things you've mentioned change the fact that the super-vast majority of people in the US are part of Labor and not part of the entreprenurial class?

You and I part ways on your reductionist closing. Complainers and Achievers? You do know that Labor does all of the productive work - the heavy lifting so to speak? Without Labor, you have empty factories, vacant restaurants, and practically every other economic pursuit under the sun is dead in the water. Your implicit shot at Labor (complainers) falls on deaf ears. Look at the numbers. The owners of this country have seen their wealth go through the roof over the decades. And Labor? 45 million of them can't even get a decent health insurance plan.

I shed no tears for the wealthy. They don't need me...except to do the work from which they prosper quite well.

These flowery, pie-in-the-sky ramblings are fun to read but worthless in real life. Shakles must not realize we need people to drive buses, fly airplanes, stock the produce shelves at grocery stores and teach our children how to read.

Some people find rewards in things OTHER than a pay scale. The benefits that comes with imparting a bit of yourself to watch others succeed can, in itself, be more gratifying than the amount of pay they receive. Not everyone has the desire, or tolerance, to be a public servant. Happiness is not always found in glamour, riches, and fame. If it were, we wouldn't find those in Hollywood turning to drugs or committing suicide like every other class in this country. People can often have different perceptions on how they measure success. If your only measure of self worth is found through materialistic wealth, then I feel sorry for you.

 

[RightDown]

Social security is forced dependence and forced poverty.

At least I don't have to feed that particular government pig anymore.

Really? That bad?

Because I see a program that keeps an estimated 14-22 million (mostly elderly) above the poverty line (depending on whom you ask).

The program assists widows and their kids in making ends meet.

It helps the disabled survive.

You don't pay payroll taxes? You must be a state employee...a public school teacher covered by a collectively bargained retirement plan? Well done. Or you're part of the clergy. No disrespect Father.

If you took the money taken from people for SS and the employer match and held it in a private account for the length of a working career and you would have a real nest egg

And since I am on no one's payroll I do not pay payroll taxes. All my income is taxed as ordinary income and therefore not subject to payroll taxes.

You might want to learn a little bit about the tax code if you're going to make assumptions like the ones in your post.

You're probably right about me. I always have a lot to learn. If you are a sole proprietor, as you intimate, you still pay FICA. And if you aren't paying FICA, you'll get caught. Why don't you just tell everyone what sort of a business entity you have? There are very few exceptions to the payroll tax.

Your nest egg scenario sounds good on paper but in reality it's a loser. First of all, you lose a large portion of your benefits to administrative costs (even if you run your own brokerage account and SS admin costs are minute), second, the boys on wall street cull all investments of up to 40% of the value every few years or so, and last, SS is social insurance. You are your brother's keeper b/c it makes for a stronger society. Your way is a dead end to the poor house b/c it is not as reliable as social insurance for benefits paid..

 

[RightDown]

The worst problem, as is being discussed on the fiat money thread, is that to sustain social security and other entitlements that cannot sustain themselves, the government has to print more and more money that is tied to nothing of value. And even though they lie constantly to us that inflation is being held in check, we all see the prices we pay for things and we know that it is not being held in check. But worst, the artificial stability the government pretends is damning up all that worthless currency behind a barrier that is certain to break. And the tsunami of inflation will be horrendous--worse than it was even during the Carter administration in the 1970's.

And THAT will so further impoverish those poor people who are totally dependent on their social security income that will buy a fraction of what it once did. No way the COLA's are keeping up with inflation now. And it will be much worse.

The US has been off the gold standard since 1971.

Money derives its value, in the US, from the full faith and credit of the US. What you aver has not been valid for over 40 years.

 

[RightDown]

The great thing about this country is opportunity to educate, learn, and apply yourself to achieve a better way of life than the one you currently find yourself in. No one is stopping you from achieving a business degree, own your own company, and treating your employees to the benefits YOU feel they deserve. Why look to others to set the example, when you can step out with a little "initiative" and lead by example? Show the rest of the business owners in America, just how easy it is to run a company and leave your employees with a better way of life. There are two kinds of people in this world; the complainers who's only key role is to find blame while getting nothing done, and the achievers who set out to actually make a difference. Which are you?

That's all terrific and those are words to live by. How does any of the things you've mentioned change the fact that the super-vast majority of people in the US are part of Labor and not part of the entreprenurial class?

You and I part ways on your reductionist closing. Complainers and Achievers? You do know that Labor does all of the productive work - the heavy lifting so to speak? Without Labor, you have empty factories, vacant restaurants, and practically every other economic pursuit under the sun is dead in the water. Your implicit shot at Labor (complainers) falls on deaf ears. Look at the numbers. The owners of this country have seen their wealth go through the roof over the decades. And Labor? 45 million of them can't even get a decent health insurance plan.

I shed no tears for the wealthy. They don't need me...except to do the work from which they prosper quite well.

This is all a part of the choices we make for ourselves, the lifestyle we are willing to build for ourselves. Do you expect me to look to the individual who chooses to work at a fast food chain as a manager and say that "I" should have more of an understanding for those decisions they make? Should their compensation between them and that of an educated experience level of a surgeon be less of a salary gap? Just how are we to determine someone's pay scale if not based on education and skill level? I'm not willing to pay someone a salary of $70,000 for flipping burgers, sorry. If you desire to make a better life for yourself, then stop with the wallowing sad story, and work to achieve a salaried job you are happy with.

I also see that you are unwilling to demonstrate exactly how a business "ought" to be run through your demonstration of 'good faith' as owner. Why should such an opportunity discourage you, if all the tools to learn how to attain and run a business are there? Why stop at simply being among the labor force, and not strive for something that is more gratifying to your cause?

You've made an excellent case for Universal Healthcare. Under that scenario, the burger flipper is covered and the private owner is free to pursue profit. The risk is shared universally and payments for coverage are buttressed by our monetarily sovereign federal government.

Again, Labor is necessary to all production. Labor is comprised of practically all americans. We need solutions, not complaints about the costs of coverage. And as you inferred, Universal Healthcare coverage would ameliorate both matters quite well.

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

False dichotemy.

Those are not the only choices we are allowed to choose from.

Exactly. If the same American drawing that $1230 a month had been allowed to invest that money instead of paying it to the government all those years, the person would almost surely have a much more comfortable retirement when he/she decided to retire. PLUS if he or she did not need or use the money it can be given to charity or bequeathed to heirs or whatever the person chooses to do with it. Any unused portions of all the money we pay into social security is swallowed up by the government and is available to nobody.

Ahahahahaa......So what do we do then with the person who did just that, took the risk of investment, and then lost the investment? Just say no when he or she applies for SS when they turn 65 and have nothing?

Now if you had said savings account instead of investment, that would make more sense.

The sad thing is that our public school system focuses more on sex education than how to manage personal finances. Our children can benefit so much more on budgeting, the differences between fixed and ARM mortgage rates, interest rates on credit purchases, and retirement planning. Instead we have chosen to depend upon "government" in place of our own ignorance to better educate ourselves into making better decisions for our OWN lives.