The truth about Slavery and the Civil War

[lordspike8319]

For years I have sat by and listened to wave after wave of men explain that the Civil war was fought over Slavery and that quite simply is not true. The Civil War was fought becuase of taxes. Much like the brits the north taxed the south for what they felt was too much and after a while they decided to make their own country. My family fought and died under the rebel flag and I'm damn proud of it. They stood up for what they thought was right. They didn't own slaves we were poor even then but we still fought.

Speaking of Slavery he's another kicker for you. The whites didn't steal Africans we were sold Africans so if blacks of the world want someone to blame most of it goes to your great great great ect grandfathers chief who said "Hey I got these boys you got rum and rope lets make a deal." or something along those line. White shouldn't have bought them that's a given, but we shouldn't smoke either and we do that too.

What do I have to back up these claims not much. I studied the subject for about ten years of my schooling and I watch the history channel a lot and that's about it. However even this week Men who fought under the rebel flag were refered to as Racist terrorist who tried to destroy this country and it amazes me that history has been so perverted by Politics.

 

[ReillyT]

For years I have sat by and listened to wave after wave of men explain that the Civil war was fought over Slavery and that quite simply is not true. The Civil War was fought becuase of taxes. Much like the brits the north taxed the south for what they felt was too much and after a while they decided to make their own country. My family fought and died under the rebel flag and I'm damn proud of it. They stood up for what they thought was right. They didn't own slaves we were poor even then but we still fought.

Speaking of Slavery he's another kicker for you. The whites didn't steal Africans we were sold Africans so if blacks of the world want someone to blame most of it goes to your great great great ect grandfathers chief who said "Hey I got these boys you got rum and rope lets make a deal." or something along those line. White shouldn't have bought them that's a given, but we shouldn't smoke either and we do that too.

What do I have to back up these claims not much. I studied the subject for about ten years of my schooling and I watch the history channel a lot and that's about it. However even this week Men who fought under the rebel flag were refered to as Racist terrorist who tried to destroy this country and it amazes me that history has been so perverted by Politics.

Both of your propositions are simplifications.

Slavery was clearly a major issue in the civil war, even if it wasn't the only issue. White capitalist agriculture in the south depended on its cheap labour force and were understandably antsy about it restriction.

Whites did at times steal Africans, but usually relied on African raiding parties that would steal Africans from other groups and then sell them as slaves. While it is true that most of the Africans were sold to colonial slave traders by other Africans, Africans were usually not selling their own and were responding to the market that was created by the colonizers and (later) the Americans. Africa has been trying to come to grips with its complicity in the slave trade for years. This is not something that hasn't been addressed, but it doesn't absolve the colonial powers and the United States for its role (which you pointed out).

 

[The_Hammer]

For years I have sat by and listened to wave after wave of men explain that the Civil war was fought over Slavery and that quite simply is not true. The Civil War was fought becuase of taxes. Much like the brits the north taxed the south for what they felt was too much and after a while they decided to make their own country. My family fought and died under the rebel flag and I'm damn proud of it. They stood up for what they thought was right. They didn't own slaves we were poor even then but we still fought.

Speaking of Slavery he's another kicker for you. The whites didn't steal Africans we were sold Africans so if blacks of the world want someone to blame most of it goes to your great great great ect grandfathers chief who said "Hey I got these boys you got rum and rope lets make a deal." or something along those line. White shouldn't have bought them that's a given, but we shouldn't smoke either and we do that too.

What do I have to back up these claims not much. I studied the subject for about ten years of my schooling and I watch the history channel a lot and that's about it. However even this week Men who fought under the rebel flag were refered to as Racist terrorist who tried to destroy this country and it amazes me that history has been so perverted by Politics.

The war was fought to bring the country back together. This I do not deny. But the southern states seceded primarily over their fear of their citizens rights to own slaves. Hell slavery is explicitly mentioned in several southern states secession declarations.

 

[mattskramer]

For years I have sat by and listened to wave after wave of men explain that the Civil war was fought over Slavery and that quite simply is not true. The Civil War was fought becuase of taxes.

Slavery was a small part of the issue[/QUOTE]

Speaking of Slavery he's another kicker for you. The whites didn't steal Africans we were sold Africans so if blacks of the world want someone to blame most of it goes to your great great great ect grandfathers chief who said "Hey I got these boys you got rum and rope lets make a deal." or something along those line. White shouldn't have bought them that's a given, but we shouldn't smoke either and we do that too.

True. It takes someone to sell and someone to buy.

 

[Gungnir]

Civil war

War Between the States.

Civil war was fought over Slavery and that quite simply is not true. The Civil War was fought becuase of taxes. Much like the brits the north taxed the south for what they felt was too much

The South was not powerless, it had enough sway to impose the Fugitive Slave laws on the rest of the States, an abomination to the spirit of the Constitution if there ever was one. What were those taxes on? Imported goods that were processed overseas by European countries (remember we've fought with England, France, Spain, and some Germans). Many of those preprocessed goods originated as Slave produced materials in the South.

Since it was the Super Rich Aristocracy which owned the majority of the Slaves they were enriching themselves at the expense of their country men. Both the Slave labor and foreign dealings of the Aristrocracy was essentially traitorous to other Americans.

and after a while they decided to make their own country.

The Aristocracy took advantage of the the patriotism and fear (re Haiti) of the South and siezed upon words of Northern loudmouths as fuel for the fire.

My family fought and died under the rebel flag and I'm damn proud of it.

The Englishmen and Scotts fought for King and Country against ungrateful American insurrectionist, does that mean their war was just?

They stood up for what they thought was right. They didn't own slaves we were poor even then but we still fought.

Most people will fight an invader in their home. Even the Angels knocked before going into Lot's house.

Speaking of Slavery he's another kicker for you. The whites didn't steal Africans we were sold Africans

That is like saying you don't deserve a DUI because you bought the beer and didn't steal it.

so if blacks of the world want someone to blame

Forget them, the aristocracy {now ensocnsed in the Jackass Party} owes more explanation to you than anyone else. Why do you think there was almost no middle class in most of the South until the 40s? Can you imagine how cheap property would be if we didn't have all these millions of slave descendants here?

The first thing I would ask my ancestors if I could go back in time would be what kind of traitorous jackass puts profit before patriotism?

White shouldn't have bought them that's a given, but we shouldn't smoke either and we do that too.

Are you just asking for the pc nutters to rip you a new one? At least be consistent. Your family wasn't part of that, right?

What do I have to back up these claims not much. I studied the subject for about ten years of my schooling and I watch the history channel a lot and that's about it.

Government public education and the History Channel? Egad man, those are not points of distinction!

However even this week Men who fought under the rebel flag were refered to as Racist terrorist who tried to destroy this country

First, have more pride in the Lost Cause and stop calling them rebels. George Washington was more a rebel than Robert Lee.
Second, (I read this on an anti-forum) stop confusing the genteel generalship and southern morality with the mainstream aristocratic traitorous bs that caused the War.
Third, if you are going to be afraid of the R word you might as well just give up.
Fourth, there are legitimate terrorist and then there is war. If you want terror look at Kansas and Viet'nam. If you want to see how to make terror work, look at Viet'nam. If you want to see how to make terror fail, look at Palestine.

and it amazes me that history has been so perverted by Politics

Grow a set man! We were the losers, that is how war is done. You should be thankful the South was readmitted into the Union and that we ONLY had Reconstruction. We got off the hook easy!

slavery is explicitly mentioned in several southern states secession declarations.

Look at the inferiority clause in the CSA Constitution too!

 

[lordspike8319]

You make some decent points all of you. I may have said what I ment to say wrong. What I ment is that slavery wasn't the only issue of the civil war and we seem to agree on that.

However there has always been something that I've wondered. If the south had won don't you think they would of freed the slaves on their own someday. It may have been further in the future by I think it still would of happened.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

You make some decent points all of you. I may have said what I ment to say wrong. What I ment is that slavery wasn't the only issue of the civil war and we seem to agree on that.

However there has always been something that I've wondered. If the south had won don't you think they would of freed the slaves on their own someday. It may have been further in the future by I think it still would of happened.

Ya like the South African Government Freed the blacks in their Country.

 

[The_Hammer]

Ya like the South African Government Freed the blacks in their Country.

Well considering that the south africans were indigenous...

But actually the confederacy did abolish slavery, in fact before the union did. Though the way they did it was designed to create an apartheid very similar to that of south Africa.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

So the Confederacy banned slavery before the "Emancipation Proclamation"? Interesting claim, totally wrong of course but nice try.

While it is true all the Proclamation did is free the slaves in the rebelling States it in effect ensured that once the war was over those couple States still in the Union would lose slavery as well.

And since the South could only speak FOR the South and very little of it by 1865, the supposed banning of slavery was in fact meaningless. Not to mention it actually on freed them from chains not from being 3rd class citizens with few if any rights.

 

[cbi0090]

Slavery was a big issue but not in the sense we often think of it today. To the industrialists in the north it was an immoral advantage that the southern agriculturists had who they had to financially compete with. Of course, the northern industrialists had the quite of few immigrants who they treated not much better than slaves, but they did at least come over on their own accord. But more importantly, slavery was a battle cry.
It resonanted with many, particularly in rural areas and the midwest, as an evil that good men had to stand up and fight.
I have a letter written by my great-great grandfather providing instructions to family members and an explanation as to why he was leaving for a "short while" to "make all men free". He was very religious, as most in Indiana were at that time, and he felt obligated to act. That was typical in those areas.
Of course, one of the most famous biographies regarding the Civil War "For the Union" spells out who many were motivated by the need to keep the country together and only nomally acknowledged the issue of slavery.
It's difficult to imagine today, but slavery was not that uncommom throughout the world at that time and real action against was a fairly new movement in western culture. The mentality at that time is hard for us to grasp these days but it was one that had been around since the beginning of civilisation and seen by many as a basic fact of life or truth. That's not a justification, it's just something that was not much different than thinking that the world was flat in centuries before, or thinking that you belong to the one and only true religion, like many do today.

 

[Gungnir]

Well considering that the south africans were indigenous...

From what I understand the Boers were native as a lot of the territory was devoid of life. Additionally the Bantu were moving south about the same time the European colonist were moving north. If they had the numbers and money the Bushmen could make an arguement that the entire Southern Africa is theirs.

The Afrikaners didn't learn from the American model.... Small pox blankets never fail.

 

[ReillyT]

From what I understand the Boers were native as a lot of the territory was devoid of life. Additionally the Bantu were moving south about the same time the European colonist were moving north. If they had the numbers and money the Bushmen could make an arguement that the entire Southern Africa is theirs.

The Afrikaners didn't learn from the American model.... Small pox blankets never fail.

The Bantu were not the only populace in Africa, and in any event, their arrival in southern Africa had preceeded the arrival of the Europeans.

Southern (what is present day) South Africa was populated by the Khoikhoi, San and Xhosa people when the first Europeans arrived. The territory that the first Dutch settlers (the later Boers) took from the indigenous inhabitants was not devoid of life. It just was not always heavily populated because many of the tribes (esp. the Khoikhoi) were pastoral people who moved their cattle from region to region depending upon the season. The European settlers were not native by any stretch of the imagination. The indigenous peoples did have the numbers - they didn't have the guns.

 

[Gunny]

Ya like the South African Government Freed the blacks in their Country.

Slaves would have been mostly replaced by machines by the 20th century. Another small factoid nobody ever discusses is Southerners themselves were questioning the morality of slavery. Slavery was also geographically isolated.

Had there not been the War of US Aggression, it would have died on its own.

 

[Gunny]

So the Confederacy banned slavery before the "Emancipation Proclamation"? Interesting claim, totally wrong of course but nice try.

While it is true all the Proclamation did is free the slaves in the rebelling States it in effect ensured that once the war was over those couple States still in the Union would lose slavery as well.

And since the South could only speak FOR the South and very little of it by 1865, the supposed banning of slavery was in fact meaningless. Not to mention it actually on freed them from chains not from being 3rd class citizens with few if any rights.

Incorrect. The Emancipation Proclamation is not the legislation that abolished slavery. The 13th Amendment to the Constitution is. Ratification was not complete until Dec 6, 1865.

The Emancipation Proclamation was a strategic attempt by Lincoln hoping to cause unrest on the plantations in the South; therebye, requiring the presence of troops that were otherwise being used on the front lines.

The Emancipation Proclamation did not free slaves in the border states that remained in the Union. Those slaves were not freed until the 13th Amendment was signed into law.

 

[Alpha1]

For years I have sat by and listened to wave after wave of men explain that the Civil war was fought over Slavery and that quite simply is not true. The Civil War was fought becuase of taxes. Much like the brits the north taxed the south for what they felt was too much and after a while they decided to make their own country. My family fought and died under the rebel flag and I'm damn proud of it. They stood up for what they thought was right. They didn't own slaves we were poor even then but we still fought.

Speaking of Slavery he's another kicker for you. The whites didn't steal Africans we were sold Africans so if blacks of the world want someone to blame most of it goes to your great great great ect grandfathers chief who said "Hey I got these boys you got rum and rope lets make a deal." or something along those line. White shouldn't have bought them that's a given, but we shouldn't smoke either and we do that too.





What do I have to back up these claims not much. I studied the subject for about ten years of my schooling and I watch the history channel a lot and that's about it. However even this week Men who fought under the rebel flag were refered to as Racist terrorist who tried to destroy this country and it amazes me that history has been so perverted by Politics.

Revisionist nonsense...re-writing history to satisfy a political agenda..

but some morons will fall for it....

I don't doubt that 50 years from now, the WTC attack will be viewed as caused by the US....

AQ will be "freedom fighters".....

The Holocaust will be a stunt pulled off on the world by the Jews ....

The moon landing will be proven to be Hollywood special effects

etc....

because that is the caliber of idiots being spawned in the country.....
that is the state of our public school system
morons are becoming the norm....

baggy pants, crooked hats and all the rest

 

[Swamp Fox]

Both of your propositions are simplifications.

Slavery was clearly a major issue in the civil war, even if it wasn't the only issue. White capitalist agriculture in the south depended on its cheap labour force and were understandably antsy about it restriction.

Whites did at times steal Africans, but usually relied on African raiding parties that would steal Africans from other groups and then sell them as slaves. While it is true that most of the Africans were sold to colonial slave traders by other Africans, Africans were usually not selling their own and were responding to the market that was created by the colonizers and (later) the Americans. Africa has been trying to come to grips with its complicity in the slave trade for years. This is not something that hasn't been addressed, but it doesn't absolve the colonial powers and the United States for its role (which you pointed out).

FRom what I've read, the Arabs were big traders in the slave market as well.

 

[Gunny]

FRom what I've read, the Arabs were big traders in the slave market as well.

Most nations held slaves at one time or another. We were just the last of the big, semi-European-Western nations to do so, so we get judged more harshly than others.

Hell, the North had slavery every bit as much as the South. They just played a shell game with it. They called it "freedom," but when those immigrants got off the boat the only jobs available were in the factories and the pnly place to get outfitted was the company store. They put them in debt to the company store and then put them in the sweat shops to work it off or they'd have them thrown in prison.

Most Southern slaves didn't have it that bad.

 

[cbi0090]

Most nations held slaves at one time or another. We were just the last of the big, semi-European-Western nations to do so, so we get judged more harshly than others.

Hell, the North had slavery every bit as much as the South. They just played a shell game with it. They called it "freedom," but when those immigrants got off the boat the only jobs available were in the factories and the pnly place to get outfitted was the company store. They put them in debt to the company store and then put them in the sweat shops to work it off or they'd have them thrown in prison.

Most Southern slaves didn't have it that bad.

We weren't the last. Cuba had slaves well into the early 1900's

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Incorrect. The Emancipation Proclamation is not the legislation that abolished slavery. The 13th Amendment to the Constitution is. Ratification was not complete until Dec 6, 1865.

The Emancipation Proclamation was a strategic attempt by Lincoln hoping to cause unrest on the plantations in the South; therebye, requiring the presence of troops that were otherwise being used on the front lines.

The Emancipation Proclamation did not free slaves in the border states that remained in the Union. Those slaves were not freed until the 13th Amendment was signed into law.

Already addressed. The Emancipation proclamation ensured there would be a 13th Amendment. I guess you been hanging out with Jillian a little to long, your reading comprehension is failing you.

There were only a few States not covered by the proclamation, Kentucky, Maryland and Missouri come to mind. However the proclamation ENSURED that when the war was over that slavery would end in those States as well. It set the bar.

War of US Aggression, what a laugh. 11 States Rebelled, formed armies and ATTACKED the US Government, seizing illegally US property, forts and killing US troops and citizens.

Lincoln bent over back wards to appease that bunch, he did not even form an Army until South Carolina attacked Fort Sumnter. Long after the South had called up militia and formed active Armies.

And ya slavery might have finally ended 60 years later , why don't you tell your black friends how it would have been better for all concerned if the South had been allowed to keep slaves until 1910 or 1920. I am sure they would love to hear how that would have been a good outcome.

 

[Gungnir]

The Bantu were not the only populace in Africa, and in any event, their arrival in southern Africa had preceeded the arrival of the Europeans.

The cape was without settlement upon arrival. As the Bantus continued to move south they went through the Difquane which depopulated a swath of territory that was settled by the Boertrekkers.

I thought the Xhosa were part of the Bantus. I knew about the Khoi, Hotentot, and San; Bushmen is easier to use for the collective.