The Rebel Flag

[Disir]

Are you making a comparison between Nazi's and civil war vets, for real?

Do you somehow think you are in the process of Denazification?

 

[konradv]

Is it representative of racism or is it part of history? I ask because I was reading AOL news and saw a story of a town divided about the flag and what it supposedly represents. What does it represent, in your opinion?

In a museum it's history. On your bumper it's racism.

 

[Picaro]

Are you making a comparison between Nazi's and civil war vets, for real?

Do you somehow think you are in the process of Denazification?

That mentality shows that the 'other side' is just as juvenile and fatuous as the mentality on the other 'side', is all. Given how Lincoln conducted the war, there were no 'good guys', both sides were racist after all, so the same can be said for displaying any flag used in the war. Demonizing the south is just a deflection for some in the modern era and a round of figurative back-patting themselves for something they had absolutely nothing to do with, so it's easy.

Same goes for those who paste the battle flag on their trucks or where ever; few of them are in any way representative of any 'old traditional southern values' or 'aristocracy', they're just attention whores riding on a past they also had absolutely nothing to do with.

 

[Disir]

Are you making a comparison between Nazi's and civil war vets, for real?

Do you somehow think you are in the process of Denazification?

That mentality shows that the 'other side' is just as juvenile and fatuous as the mentality on the other 'side', is all. Given how Lincoln conducted the war, there were no 'good guys', both sides were racist after all, so the same can be said for displaying any flag used in the war. Demonizing the south is just a deflection for some in the modern era and a round of figurative back-patting themselves for something they had absolutely nothing to do with, so it's easy.

Same goes for those who paste the battle flag on their trucks or where ever; few of them are in any way representative of any 'old traditional southern values' or 'aristocracy', they're just attention whores riding on a past they also had absolutely nothing to do with.

I agree.

That was one of the worst wars ever fought. To be fair, it would do the US well to go back and take a good look at what went down so they have a real good idea of what many are currently asking for. It was a lot of propaganda and a lot of atrocious acts were committed. Many of the men became opium addicts because that was what was used for pain at the time. The romancing came later. Pretending that nothing happened won't work.

The Rebel Flag is actually the Army of Northern Virginia Battle Flag.

It was used in Alabama. But, so were a lot of others. If that was the flag that was used, then it makes sense. I might even find it acceptable that the individual that placed it there simply purchased this one because it was mass produced and available instead of taking the time to recreate what flag went with each individual.
http://www.archives.state.al.us/referenc/flags/

I have a great+ grandfather that fought in the Mexican-American War and then in the Confederate Army via Texas. I have a different line with a great+grandfather that fought on the Union side. I have been through records held at the NARA. I have read through pension files. These vets (on both sides) are the people that many of our grandparents knew. They were long gone before I was born. Hell, there is still a small group of children of those Vets living:
Children of Civil War Veterans Still Walk Among Us 150 Years After the War

This little game of it didn't exist is just as bad as Texas rewriting history textbooks and pretending that slavery was a much better deal. There comes a point in time where one stops fighting the good fight and slides right over to the exact same behavior as the enemy.

 

[orogenicman]

Are you making a comparison between Nazi's and civil war vets, for real?

Do you somehow think you are in the process of Denazification?

That mentality shows that the 'other side' is just as juvenile and fatuous as the mentality on the other 'side', is all. Given how Lincoln conducted the war, there were no 'good guys', both sides were racist after all, so the same can be said for displaying any flag used in the war. Demonizing the south is just a deflection for some in the modern era and a round of figurative back-patting themselves for something they had absolutely nothing to do with, so it's easy.

Same goes for those who paste the battle flag on their trucks or where ever; few of them are in any way representative of any 'old traditional southern values' or 'aristocracy', they're just attention whores riding on a past they also had absolutely nothing to do with.

The Union flag used during the civil was is not longer a valid national flag. So I am not sure what you are trying to say wrt to the flags. Certainly the confederate flag is invalid. I don't think anyone here is intentionally demonizing the south as it exists today. It is a part of the union like any other region of the country. I think the point here is that the confederate flag, which may have emotional meaning for some, is no longer appropriate to display on U.S. soil. As I have said repeatedly here and elsewhere, the war is over. We already have a national flag. And that flag is the one that should be displayed at all times that a national flag is appropriate for display.

 

[Nosmo King]

What purpose does a flag serve? It can be a symbol of national identity. It can serve to rally troops on a battlefield. It can identify ships on the high seas. It can be a source of patriotic pride.

As for the Confederate flag, it served all those purposes. But, in contemporary context, it is an emblem of a racist attitude. That is the 150 year old reflection of the Confederate cause, the vilest cause ever fought for on this continent.

Americans will always recognize the historical context of that banner. But today's sensibilities mandate that a thorough recognition of the racist subtext associated with that flag must be taken into account.

 

[Roadrunner]

Do Germans put Swastikas on the graves of their WW2 soldiers?

Did Confederates carry out genocide?

 

[Picaro]

The problem with standing on moralist soapboxes over past events is that those who take such stands don't have to prove that they themselves would in any way have such beliefs themselves if they were in the same environment and society of those times, which is why they can't be taken seriously, at least not on a History thread or Forum.

One of my favorite quotes re the infestations of presentism on historical narratives:

"And here is what bothers me so much about modern "scholarship." At what point did history become ethics? Why should we subvert the elusive search for facts to moralist concerns? So what if they are on or off the hook? If you want to be a preacher, go preach. If you want to save the world, go into politics. If you want to invent a world free of evil, take prozac. It was said in Ecclesiastes and it still is true today, people suck. They did then, all of them. They do now, all of us. History is the history of self-interested, competing, aggressive, selfish, murderous humans. At what point did it become a morality play? -Dave WIlliams, George Mason Univ.

Williams is more cynical than I am, but mostly the points in the quote are valid.

 

[jwoodie]

It is adolescently provocative, like Che teeshirts, swastikas, flags from the USSR, etc.

Are you an adolescent?

 

[there4eyeM]

The Rebel (sic) Flag

Is it representative of racism or is it part of history? I ask because I was reading AOL news and saw a story of a town divided about the flag and what it supposedly represents. What does it represent, in your opinion?

"It is adolescently provocative, like Che teeshirts, swastikas, flags from the USSR, etc."
That is the original post, and the comment was directed at that.
The age of this poster is not relevant and asking it invites wondering what the reason would be.

 

[Gracie]

For clarification..the reason I posted the thread was due to a friend of mine that lives in wyo and they have a rebel flag on the gatepost that goes to their ranch. They are originally from NC but have been in wyo for years. They also produce and sell barbque sauce...and the rebel flag is on that as well. They were told by the city council that the rebel flag is not appreciated and to take it down. She refused. Nothing further came from it, but it did piss her off that the flag was an attempt to make them conform and they are rebels..they do not conform easily, and that was all it stood for. And it was on HUGE acreage, not in town or on a house in town. It was on private land, attached to their gate, on a dirt road that is privately owned.

 

[PredFan]

"Is it representative of racism or is it part of history?"


Both – depending on context, intent, and perception.

As a matter of law the flags are protected speech entitled to Constitutional protections pursuant to First Amendment jurisprudence.

In the context of private society it's an issue subject to debate between and among private citizens, where private citizens opposed to displaying the flags are not 'violating' the free speech rights of those who support displaying the flags.

Wtf? You made sense! Who are you and what have you done with Clayton?

 

[PredFan]

The TRUE Meaning of the Confederate Flag s Design

Why on Earth would it stand for anything other than a desire for Liberty?? I would suggest that "Old Glory" is the flag of the winners. Why should a conquered people be subject to a flag they fought against. True: history has passed by and there is no call to change the US Flag and frankly I like it....but to call it a Unity Flag is not really correct. To many it represents a loss of Liberty and a loss of self determination. That attitude should be respected.

As for "racist, etc etc"...that's bulldust!!



Greg

Greg. maybe you didn't get the memo. If not, here it is:

Memo

From: The rest of us

To: Southerners

R.e. - The civil war is over. Get over it.

To Yankees:

We're over it, you aren't. As evidenced by this thread and the news lately.

Regards:
Southerners.

 

[Rogue 9]

The flag of the Confederacy represents the de facto government of the so-called Confederate States, obviously. So the question becomes, what did that government represent?

Fortunately, they were kind enough to tell us.

But not to be tedious in enumerating the numerous changes for the better, allow me to allude to one other-though last, not least: the new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions-African slavery as it exists among us-the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically... Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition. This, our new Government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.

So we can see that the Confederacy represents the idea that the ideals of the Founding are incorrect, that all men are not created equal, and that black people ought to be enslaved. So, perforce, that is what the flag represents. And that's horrid.

 

[Stan Fan]

The TRUE Meaning of the Confederate Flag s Design

Why on Earth would it stand for anything other than a desire for Liberty?? I would suggest that "Old Glory" is the flag of the winners. Why should a conquered people be subject to a flag they fought against. True: history has passed by and there is no call to change the US Flag and frankly I like it....but to call it a Unity Flag is not really correct. To many it represents a loss of Liberty and a loss of self determination. That attitude should be respected.

As for "racist, etc etc"...that's bulldust!!



Greg

 

[Stan Fan]

The TRUE Meaning of the Confederate Flag s Design

Why on Earth would it stand for anything other than a desire for Liberty?? I would suggest that "Old Glory" is the flag of the winners. Why should a conquered people be subject to a flag they fought against. True: history has passed by and there is no call to change the US Flag and frankly I like it....but to call it a Unity Flag is not really correct. To many it represents a loss of Liberty and a loss of self determination. That attitude should be respected.

As for "racist, etc etc"...that's bulldust!!



Greg

The flag you are writing about belongs to the United States government, duly surrendered to the Union Army at Appomattox Courthouse, Virginia, in April 1865 by General Lee. Terms were simply:

Surrender your arms
Surrender your FLAG
Take an oath not to take up arms against the government again, and you are paroled and may return to your homes.

The illegal nation, known as the Confederate States of America, as represented by that flag, ceased to exist with the surrender at Appomattox Courthouse and shortly thereafter, the surrender of their Army of Tennessee.

The flag you posted isn't the actual Stars and Bars battle flag, the one we see most in modern times actually was the Confederate naval ensign - the flag you posted.

What it stood for was a group of states who decided to disband the Federal Union, against the Constitution, which President Lincoln decided was illegal. Thus the American Civil War, of which over 600,000 died. That group of states also maintained a labor force of black African slaves, approximately five million of them, worked like oxen in agriculture harvesting cotton, sugar cane and tobacco, in the foulest manner possible. Their births were not recorded. It was a hanging offense to run away and try to escape. It was illegal to teach them how to read and write. The idea was, keep the body strong, keep the mind weak.

Now, the Confederate Flag itself represents numerous things to different people. To those of Southern persuasion, the flag represents the hundreds of thousands who died fighting under its banner from Bull Run in Virginia, to Texas, four bloody years. If flown to honor those dead, nobody should really have a problem with it.

Traitor's - Yes, according to the Federal Government at the time. President Lincoln never allowed the words Confederate States of America, or The Confederacy, to be uttered in his presence. When General Meade informed him by telegraph that General Lee was retreating back to Virginia, after 54,000 were killed at Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, July 1-3, 1863 with the comment "we have driven the enemy from our territory" - Lincoln was furious. Most historians think Lincoln was angry that Meade didn't pursue, and attempt to destroy the Army of Northern Virginia, but the Army of the Potomac was as decimated as the rebel army after that battle, and in no position to continue the attack at that time. What Lincoln was furious about was the idea one of his top Generals couldn't grasp the idea that Virginia; Tennessee; Maryland; Alabama; Texas; South Carolina; North Carolina - all the states in rebellion - were not states at all, their laws were still intact, and their territory was, and never had been, and never would be a separate country. Virginia, et al, was part of the Federal Union, and never legally left it.

After the end of that terrible war, which preserved the American Union, Congress instituted a harsh reconstruction on the South, as conquered territory, attempting to break forever, the big land owner's power. They countered with hiring the freed slaves through a sharecropping method, giving them small parcels of land to farm, for part of their crop's. Essentially it was not much better than being a serf in Russia. They also maintained control of the courts, the legal apparatus and the ballot box, well into the 1960's, with "Bull Durham" Sheriff's unleashing fury on Civil Right's protesters.

To gain that upper hand again, the Southern landowners survived the Carpetbaggers and scalawags from the North that came to feed on the dregs left from the defeat of the Confederacy. Through intimidation, murder, lynchings, hangings, burning out Black farms and crops, they regained their superior positions. Many of them operated like the KKK, in disguise for their murderous ways, and used the Confederate flag as their symbol. Therefore, to the Black community of the South, that particular flag is offensive to them, as it doesn't represent freedom but oppression. It shouldn't fly from state capitals or official government buildings, but that doesn't mean that modern Southern people flying it as a symbol of the South, or honoring a dead Confederate grave, are, in fact, racist and oppressor's. Nobody living in America today can relate to slavery of the 1600's to 1865 in America, however, that flag, which is protected by free speech, and is the sole property of the United States Government today, means different things to different people. Flying it for Southern pride - no problem - flying it in a July 4th or Memorial Day parade - no go.

 

[gtopa1]

For the record... THIS is the true Confederate flag :

From the link.....

The flag you posted isn't the actual Stars and Bars battle flag,

Third national flag: "The Blood-Stained Banner" (1865)
The third national flag (also called "the Blood Stained Banner") was adopted March 4, 1865. The red vertical bar was proposed by Major Arthur L. Rogers, who argued that the pure white field of the Second National flag could be mistaken as a flag of truce: when hanging limp in no wind, the flag's Southern Cross canton could accidentally stay hidden, so the flag could mistakenly appear all white.

Rogers lobbied successfully to have this alteration introduced in the Confederate Senate. He defended his redesign as having "as little as possible of the Yankee blue", and described it as symbolizing the primary origins of the people of the Confederacy, with the St. George's Cross of the English and British flags and the red bar from the flag of France.[10]

The Flag Act of 1865 by the Confederate congress near the very end of the War, describes the flag in the following language:

The Congress of the Confederate States of America do enact, That the flag of the Confederate States shall be as follows: The width two-thirds of its length, with the union (now used as the battle flag) to be in width three-fifths of the width of the flag, and so proportioned as to leave the length of the field on the side of the union twice the width of the field below it; to have the ground red and a broad blue saltier thereon, bordered with white and emblazoned with mullets or five pointed stars, corresponding in number to that of the Confederate States; the field to be white, except the outer half from the union to be a red bar extending the width of the flag.

—Flag Act of 1865, [9]
Despite the passage of the Flag Act of 1865, very few of these third national flags were actually manufactured and put into use in the field, with many Confederates never seeing the flag. Moreover, the ones made by the Richmond Clothing Depot used the square canton of the second national flag rather than the slightly rectangular one that was specified by the law.[9]

• 
  Third national flag (after March 4, 1865)
  
  
• 
  Third national flag as commonly manufactured, with a square canton

From wiki...


I have no dog in this fight except to say that I do not accept that this is the flag of racists. It was the flag of a free people until the issue was decided by war...and decided it was. The destruction of the South and the political vacuum that enveloped it led in large part to those with extremist views filling that vacuum but only in part...and that was wrt the carpet bagging that was repugnant to its victims and was let flourish by the winners. That it was also turned on the Black community is a disgrace and cannot be justified. Yes: there were REASONS for it but they did not JUSTIFY it.

A fascinating history indeed...but History it is. It should form NO PART of modern Race relations in the USA...after all; you're all septic tanks!!

Greg

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

It represents both in that it represents a historical episode that very much involves racism and slavery. That being said, in as much as the Confederate flag represents racism or slavery, so does Old Glory. Remember that slavery wasn't outlawed in the United States until the adoption of the Thirteenth Amendment in late 1865, which is not to mention the racial strife that followed for, if we're being generous, the next 100 years. So no one has the moral high ground to criticize the flying of the Confederate flag.

 

[Correll]

The TRUE Meaning of the Confederate Flag s Design

Why on Earth would it stand for anything other than a desire for Liberty?? I would suggest that "Old Glory" is the flag of the winners. Why should a conquered people be subject to a flag they fought against. True: history has passed by and there is no call to change the US Flag and frankly I like it....but to call it a Unity Flag is not really correct. To many it represents a loss of Liberty and a loss of self determination. That attitude should be respected.

As for "racist, etc etc"...that's bulldust!!



Greg

Greg. maybe you didn't get the memo. If not, here it is:

Memo

From: The rest of us

To: Southerners

R.e. - The civil war is over. Get over it.

To Yankees:

We're over it, you aren't. As evidenced by this thread and the news lately.

Regards:
Southerners.

i'm a northern, and I'm over it. It's only northern libs who are trying to reopen this old wound.

 

[orogenicman]

It represents both in that it represents a historical episode that very much involves racism and slavery. That being said, in as much as the Confederate flag represents racism or slavery, so does Old Glory. Remember that slavery wasn't outlawed in the United States until the adoption of the Thirteenth Amendment in late 1865, which is not to mention the racial strife that followed for, if we're being generous, the next 100 years. So no one has the moral high ground to criticize the flying of the Confederate flag.

Actually, every family of former slaves has that moral high ground. By the way, there is probably not a single African American in this country who views the star spangled banner as an emblem of racism. They likely do, however, view, to the last man, woman, and child, the confederate flag as a symbol of racism. Surely you've figured this out by now.