The real fossil fuel problem and alternatives...

[Old Rocks]

- First you establish the environmental crisis through fraudulent science. (Anthropogenic Global Warming)
- Then you legislate a tax the private sector to fund governmental solutions. (Cap and Trade)
- To assess value of the tax, you find a method to track who is using what and doing what. (Chicago Climate Exchange "Big Board")
- But you have to buy the technology to do this exchange (10% ownership Goldman Sachs, The Joyce Foundation, the Apollo Project, Patent owned by Fannie Mae and Franklin Raines)
- To collect the tax, you focus on limiting the market by shutting down competition to your desired forms of industry (Alternative energy companies and all allied foundations and public works that agree to realign with your new direction)
- Buy off the press or their masters to keep pushing only positive views of the 'crisis' solutions. (NBC's "Green is Universal" week?)

All these parts are 'conspirators'. Some knowingly, other's useful idiots. But it's all based on the same fundamental lie that mankind is harming the planet, and the only way to stop it is to destroy modern society and create some sort of Maoist socio/fascist global governance that no one can escape from and those at the top currently stay permanently entrenched in power, just like the age of Aristocracy. Deigned by Gaia to rule inperpetuity, for they 'get it' and are 'truly enlightened'.

Your playbook is so old, it uses Illuminated Text written by monks on sheepskin and vellum.

Oh my, the tinfoil hat brigade is out in force

 

[Big Fitz]

- First you establish the environmental crisis through fraudulent science. (Anthropogenic Global Warming)
- Then you legislate a tax the private sector to fund governmental solutions. (Cap and Trade)
- To assess value of the tax, you find a method to track who is using what and doing what. (Chicago Climate Exchange "Big Board")
- But you have to buy the technology to do this exchange (10% ownership Goldman Sachs, The Joyce Foundation, the Apollo Project, Patent owned by Fannie Mae and Franklin Raines)
- To collect the tax, you focus on limiting the market by shutting down competition to your desired forms of industry (Alternative energy companies and all allied foundations and public works that agree to realign with your new direction)
- Buy off the press or their masters to keep pushing only positive views of the 'crisis' solutions. (NBC's "Green is Universal" week?)

All these parts are 'conspirators'. Some knowingly, other's useful idiots. But it's all based on the same fundamental lie that mankind is harming the planet, and the only way to stop it is to destroy modern society and create some sort of Maoist socio/fascist global governance that no one can escape from and those at the top currently stay permanently entrenched in power, just like the age of Aristocracy. Deigned by Gaia to rule inperpetuity, for they 'get it' and are 'truly enlightened'.

Your playbook is so old, it uses Illuminated Text written by monks on sheepskin and vellum.

Oh my, the tinfoil hat brigade is out in force

To be called a conspiracy believer by a cargo cult warmist who believes in fraudulent 'science' when the truth is public knowledge for anyone looking on who owns what and the conflict of interests that exist.

Yeah, pot v kettle.

Continue?
Insert one quarter.
10...9...8...7...

 

[gslack]

Of course our local trolls could actually go to a source for real costs. But that would require a bit of effort, and even a little honestly. Something they have no concept of.

Comparative electrical generation costs - SourceWatch

Comparative costs data: California regulatory agencies (May 2008)
On May 13, 2008, the California Energy Commission and the California Public Utilities Commission released a comparison of the costs of of new generating capacity from various sources. The analysis for the comparison was prepared by Energy and Environmental Economics, Inc., a consulting firm that prepares studies for utilities, governmental regulators, law firms, and non-profit agencies.[1] These estimates include firming resource costs.

Busbar cost in cents per kilowatt-hour in 2008 dollars:

Coal:

Coal Supercritical: 10.554
Coal Integrated Gasification Combined Cycle (IGCC): 11.481
Coal IGCC with Carbon Capture & Storage (IGCC with CCS): 17.317
Alternatives:

Biogas: 8.552
Wind: 8.910
Gas Combined Cycle: 9.382
Geothermal: 10.182
Hydroelectric: 10.527
Concentrating solar thermal (CSP): 12.653
Nuclear: 15.316
Biomass: 16.485
Busbar means the price of the power leaving the plant. All capital, fuel, and operating costs are taken into account in busbar costs.

The spreadsheet containing these costs can be found at CPUC GHG Modeling.

HA! you have no concept of the word honesty douchebag..... Oh good you went with source watch again... I love showing their biased nature.... Thanks, i got to out them for it last time.... They LIED outright last time you used them pal. I hope its better this time...

Lets take a look shall we..

Oh dam right away..... The use of "busbar"....See that? THey say it means; "Busbar means the price of the power leaving the plant. All capital, fuel, and operating costs are taken into account in busbar costs."

So we can see they already leave out the important parts. Biomass, for instance... Biomass requires a lot before getting to the burners... hence the costs, and level we can produce it will not meet demands....

Wait wasn't that one of the points made in the OP posts? Why yes it was...

Moving on... Oh wait!

As I recall the problem was alternatives being unable to fill the demand levels.... As in we can't grow enough of this or that to fill the need, or we cannot reach a certain level of production in the current situation or technological state.... Yeah..... Kinda dumb to argue the costs per kilowatt hour when the problem isn't the costs alone....

Oldrocks, you really need to start reading what I post more carefully. You missed the entire point. The point was burning most of the alternatives like ethanol, bio-diesel, bio-mass, etc, etc, still produce CO2 and other sometimes even more amounts and more dangerous chemicals. meaning they do not change anything regarding the problem you guys claim AGW.

What good does it do you to burn these alternatives when first, you cannot make enough to replace fossil fuels, second they do not change the fact it is still releasing GHG's and other harmful chemicals, and lastly they do not offer enough benefit to overshadow their drawbacks.

The only non-GHG producing alternatives are Nuclear (dangerous wastes), Solar (terribly inefficient and unreliable), Geo-thermal (limited in output and by geographical locations), hydroelectric (forces building of dams or harnessing waves which could harm the local sea life and eco-systems), and thats pretty much it barring some miracle scientific breakthrough or discovery.

As I said before Hydrogen Fuel is the way to go in the foreseeable future. it is clean on the end-users part, produces pure water as an exhaust, has a greater return ratio than any other, We do not BURN it meaning it will recycle itself naturally, and is the most abundant substance in the known Galaxy.

Hydrogen has its drawbacks as well though.... Currently we can't get enough pure hydrogen to make it a viable alternative, the production of this grade hydrogen is achieved by either burning massive amounts of coal, or by extreme pressure using water or steam. This means we will still be burning coal and most likely the pressure methods alone due to location and ecological concerns will not be able to meet demands.

Hydrogen is the future though, but right now its not going to cut it...

P.S. stop using source watch they are hacks to say the least....

 

[HUGGY]

Uh huh, keep talking punk... you will screw up and when you do they will ban you... So please keep using your proxy like an idiot....
------------------------------------------

Ban me for what? Is this one of those boards that supposedly supports free speech until you cross one of the old timers? You're the one that resorts to foul laguage at the drop of a hat. ANYONE, isn't that a TOS violation on most boards? Bring it on, gslack. I don't think you have a leg to stand on.

The slacker isn't an "old timer". 3 of 10.
He ran down the operation of a refinery. Big whoop. He is just filling space up with crap that everyone knows. Nothing new was revealed. It is an awkward yet somehow entertaining attempt to scratch out a little turf. Dude is thin skinned...maybe defensive to a fault. His knowledge of reffinery operation is extensive...his knowledge of this board is thread bare. The rules are clear..Home page.... It is rediculously hard to get banned .

Bottom line....good references... no clout. My guess is that he will miss the forest for the trees and do something myopic and stupid finding all these well researched bytes turned to cyber dust.

 

[gslack]

Uh huh, keep talking punk... you will screw up and when you do they will ban you... So please keep using your proxy like an idiot....
------------------------------------------

Ban me for what? Is this one of those boards that supposedly supports free speech until you cross one of the old timers? You're the one that resorts to foul laguage at the drop of a hat. ANYONE, isn't that a TOS violation on most boards? Bring it on, gslack. I don't think you have a leg to stand on.

The slacker isn't an "old timer". 3 of 10.
He ran down the operation of a refinery. Big whoop. He is just filling space up with crap that everyone knows. Nothing new was revealed. It is an awkward yet somehow entertaining attempt to scratch out a little turf. Dude is thin skinned...maybe defensive to a fault. His knowledge of reffinery operation is extensive...his knowledge of this board is thread bare. The rules are clear..Home page.... It is rediculously hard to get banned .

Bottom line....good references... no clout. My guess is that he will miss the forest for the trees and do something myopic and stupid finding all these well researched bytes turned to cyber dust.

Aww look the poet is here to entertain us..... GO ahead we have a few IQ points to spare..... LOL, this idiot had a Billy Madison Podium moment and got all mad when I asked what it meant.... His Haiku went something like...

"he smokes cigarettes on my desk"

"I ask him why"

"he says I like michelle and the kids"


HAHAHAHAHAHA! WTF? And now he has been in a huff ever since. Come on shakespeare entertain us....