The Prefect of Discipline

DGS49

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Apr 12, 2012
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Many years ago, I attended an all-boys Catholic high school (of great academic distinction).

Behavior problems in the classroom and on campus were referred to the Prefect of Discipline (there were actually two of them). Upon "acting out" the student was told to report to the Prefect; the Prefect's office was always in operation, but most of their "work" was done after school in a dedicated classroom. Both Prefects were large men - one a football coach, and the other an ex-Marine drill sergeant.

The Prefect was told about the student's infraction and devised a punishment or assignment based on what the problem was. Corporal punishment was theoretically an option, but never actually occurred. OTOH, the students could be physically restrained (forced to sit quietly at a desk), which occasionally involved a tiny bit of violence. A fighting infraction was occasionally met with a "fighting" punishment - going at it with one of the prefects, with boxing gloves on. The results were not surprising.

Typical punishments might be, doing some janitorial work like cutting grass, policing litter from the common areas, or washing blackboards. An academic punishment might be doing problems from the current chapter in the subject where the infraction took place. You could not leave the detention room until the assignment was done and checked, and every problem was answered correctly. Sometimes detention was delayed for an hour or so, just to make it more inconvenient for the offending student (i.e., come back at four o'clock).

The inconvenience of detention, as it affected the student's transportation needs or participation in extracurricular activities was addressed with the general principle of, "Tough shit." Coaches were in agreement that a practice or game that was not attended due to detention were not excused. We were in high school, after all, and it was all on us.

If the Prefect was not able to address the problem adequately through these normal means, the next step was (a) in-school suspension - two or three days spent under the thumb of a Prefect, or (b) out-of-school suspension.

Of course, the bottom line - the ultimate punishment - was expulsion from school.

When speaking to teachers in today's schools, the lack of discipline is one problem that comes up regularly. If you don't think that the introduction of a Prefect of Discipline, as described above, would go a long way toward helping that situation, I invite you to ask yourself why not. On what rational basis do we shelter our Little Snowflakes from the normal and natural results of their mis-behavior? On what basis to we subject our non-offending students to the aggravation of having to sit in class with chronic disruptors? On what basis do we hamstring our teachers and force them to enforce minimally offensive behavior requirements that significantly detract from their Mission? Do you really think there is something in the U.S. Constitution that prohibits running schools with appropriate discipline?
 
It's the parents. If you even look cross-eyed at their precious little child the district will be sued.
 
The ultimate disciplinary tool is parents. You've either got them or you don't. What percentage of the students in your Catholic school didn't have parents they were both a bit afraid of and whose approval they craved?

Some schools would need about 50 prefects of discipline. Boot camp is what a lot of these kids need, not school. Inner city schools neither teach nor enforce discipline. They are frauds. Properly run schools, with a student population who are largely on grade level, have disciplinary procedures which run like a well oiled machine.
 
Inner city schools neither teach nor enforce discipline. They are frauds. .


On an average day, how many hours do you spend in an inner-city school observing the practice upon which you base your comments?
 
Inner city schools neither teach nor enforce discipline. They are frauds. .


On an average day, how many hours do you spend in an inner-city school observing the practice upon which you base your comments?
About 10 years in Brooklyn and Ft. Lauderdale. How about you? The teachers in these schools were routinely polled to determine their biggest complaint, and answer #1 was always discipline.
 
A lot of disciplinary problems are from mainstreaming.
 
A lot of disciplinary problems are from mainstreaming.
Well, it's a stupid policy, imo, as is mixing children with no English skills into an English language class and expecting them to benefit from it.

Discipline though, is a complicated subject, to say the least. It's the elephant in the room in the discussion of education. Public education is cookie cutter. Expecting ill prepared children to be able to keep up with our standard grade levels is delusional. Expecting that any school can keep up with the disciplinary problems that crop up as these children fall farther and farther behind is equally wrong. Social promotion is a morally bankrupt policy, and any pretense that it can be dealt with by mayoral decree, as Michael Bloomberg attempted, is offensive. Social promotion, imo, is the root problem in inner city classrooms. The root of that problem is cultural. The word gap that measures the level of resources available to the developing child starts growing at birth.
 
A lot of disciplinary problems are from mainstreaming.
Well, it's a stupid policy, imo, as is mixing children with no English skills into an English language class and expecting them to benefit from it.

Discipline though, is a complicated subject, to say the least. It's the elephant in the room in the discussion of education. Public education is cookie cutter. Expecting ill prepared children to be able to keep up with our standard grade levels is delusional. Expecting that any school can keep up with the disciplinary problems that crop up as these children fall farther and farther behind is equally wrong. Social promotion is a morally bankrupt policy, and any pretense that it can be dealt with by mayoral decree, as Michael Bloomberg attempted, is offensive. Social promotion, imo, is the root problem in inner city classrooms. The root of that problem is cultural. The word gap that measures the level of resources available to the developing child starts growing at birth.

It has nothing to do with social promotion. It has everything to do with saving money.
Kids figure out pretty quick that the kid in class that can swear at a teacher or disrupt the classroom have no repercussions because they are considered special education. Public education was made cookie cutter because of high stakes testing.
 
Inner city schools neither teach nor enforce discipline. They are frauds. .


On an average day, how many hours do you spend in an inner-city school observing the practice upon which you base your comments?
About 10 years in Brooklyn and Ft. Lauderdale. How about you? The teachers in these schools were routinely polled to determine their biggest complaint, and answer #1 was always discipline.









You're saying there was no discipline in the schools in Brookln? Suspicious.
 
A lot of disciplinary problems are from mainstreaming.
Well, it's a stupid policy, imo, as is mixing children with no English skills into an English language class and expecting them to benefit from it.

Discipline though, is a complicated subject, to say the least. It's the elephant in the room in the discussion of education. Public education is cookie cutter. Expecting ill prepared children to be able to keep up with our standard grade levels is delusional. Expecting that any school can keep up with the disciplinary problems that crop up as these children fall farther and farther behind is equally wrong. Social promotion is a morally bankrupt policy, and any pretense that it can be dealt with by mayoral decree, as Michael Bloomberg attempted, is offensive. Social promotion, imo, is the root problem in inner city classrooms. The root of that problem is cultural. The word gap that measures the level of resources available to the developing child starts growing at birth.







You don't want kids to learn English?
 
Inner city schools neither teach nor enforce discipline. They are frauds. .


On an average day, how many hours do you spend in an inner-city school observing the practice upon which you base your comments?
About 10 years in Brooklyn and Ft. Lauderdale. How about you? The teachers in these schools were routinely polled to determine their biggest complaint, and answer #1 was always discipline.









You're saying there was no discipline in the schools in Brookln? Suspicious.
Nope, I said that there was no discipline in badly run schools. That, of course, is a great simplification of the problem. The lack of discipline is in no way the fault of the administrators. I also taught at James Madison HS, where the disciplinary apparatus was remarkably good. There is, of course, a full spectrum of schools. Completely failed institutions to schools with a fine academic records. Schools which are failing and failed schools which are being successfully rehabilitated. Unfortunately, the latter is extremely rare.

Discipline is not an inherent skill, it must be learned. You cannot learn it in education courses. They can give you theory, but the reality is quite different. Classroom management is the foundation on which classroom learning is built. Classroom management fails when you don't have the support of the school administration, the parents and the students themselves. It fails when you have HS aged kids who have been failing all their lives. Kids who walk into a classroom with 30's and 40's on standardized tests. Keep in mind that the teacher turnover in failed schools is brutal. As a result you've often got raw teachers, barely more than kids themselves, who are thrust into these hopeless situations. Failed schools are where teaching careers go to die.
 
A lot of disciplinary problems are from mainstreaming.
Well, it's a stupid policy, imo, as is mixing children with no English skills into an English language class and expecting them to benefit from it.

Discipline though, is a complicated subject, to say the least. It's the elephant in the room in the discussion of education. Public education is cookie cutter. Expecting ill prepared children to be able to keep up with our standard grade levels is delusional. Expecting that any school can keep up with the disciplinary problems that crop up as these children fall farther and farther behind is equally wrong. Social promotion is a morally bankrupt policy, and any pretense that it can be dealt with by mayoral decree, as Michael Bloomberg attempted, is offensive. Social promotion, imo, is the root problem in inner city classrooms. The root of that problem is cultural. The word gap that measures the level of resources available to the developing child starts growing at birth.







You don't want kids to learn English?
Yup, with a teacher who can speak their native language. This is a problem, in a city like NY where there is an astounding variety of languages spoken. Children like this used to be sent to specialized classes. Then, budget cuts, and "mainstreaming". Let's just shove kids like this into a regular classroom and provide them with a "coach" who stops into the classroom once a week, to pat the kid on the head. The first time this happened to me I was teaching in a middle school in Canarsie. An adorable little girl, who spoke only Mandarin Chinese. No one told me she was coming. No one prepared me in any way for this situation. They dumped her into one of the worst schools in the city and walked away. She was incredibly self-disciplined and had a sunny disposition, but I could never ask her how she was feeling because I cannot speak a word of Mandarin Chinese. I would keep her in a seat right up front and center, because I feared for her safety. They would send her a very minimal amount of bi-lingual material, but not enough to constitute a full academic program. I tried to tutor her on this material. I hope I did her some good. This was my second teaching job and I was overwhelmed. The discipline was non-existent. Team teaching was helpful, but very rare. Cynicism was in good supply, though. The natural human response to complete frustration.
 
A lot of disciplinary problems are from mainstreaming.
Well, it's a stupid policy, imo, as is mixing children with no English skills into an English language class and expecting them to benefit from it.

Discipline though, is a complicated subject, to say the least. It's the elephant in the room in the discussion of education. Public education is cookie cutter. Expecting ill prepared children to be able to keep up with our standard grade levels is delusional. Expecting that any school can keep up with the disciplinary problems that crop up as these children fall farther and farther behind is equally wrong. Social promotion is a morally bankrupt policy, and any pretense that it can be dealt with by mayoral decree, as Michael Bloomberg attempted, is offensive. Social promotion, imo, is the root problem in inner city classrooms. The root of that problem is cultural. The word gap that measures the level of resources available to the developing child starts growing at birth.







You don't want kids to learn English?
Yup, with a teacher who can speak their native language.....


Bilingual ed is not necessary to teach ELLs.
 
A lot of disciplinary problems are from mainstreaming.
Well, it's a stupid policy, imo, as is mixing children with no English skills into an English language class and expecting them to benefit from it.

Discipline though, is a complicated subject, to say the least. It's the elephant in the room in the discussion of education. Public education is cookie cutter. Expecting ill prepared children to be able to keep up with our standard grade levels is delusional. Expecting that any school can keep up with the disciplinary problems that crop up as these children fall farther and farther behind is equally wrong. Social promotion is a morally bankrupt policy, and any pretense that it can be dealt with by mayoral decree, as Michael Bloomberg attempted, is offensive. Social promotion, imo, is the root problem in inner city classrooms. The root of that problem is cultural. The word gap that measures the level of resources available to the developing child starts growing at birth.







You don't want kids to learn English?
Yup, with a teacher who can speak their native language.....


Bilingual ed is not necessary to teach ELLs.
Training is, and a orderly classroom. As to whether bi-lingual is preferable or not, it is the only option. You either have mainstreamed bilingual or segregated. Personally, I am always skeptical when the cheaper option is touted as the better option.

You have no idea what this school was like. Fine people, all of them. Utterly overwhelmed. They didn't have enough teachers for coverages, and there are no substitute teachers available in a school like this. When they had no one, they would leave the children alone, in a room, with board games (Snakes and Ladders!). I can't imagine what it must be like to be a student in a school like this, when you can't speak English.
 
I don't think bi-lingual is the only option, I actually think it's a bad way to go and total immersion would be better. I saw the Army do something interesting with recruits who didn't speak English, they were sent to a central location and immersed in English. The drills weren't even bi-lingual, it was speak English or be punished. I'm not suggesting that schools become militarized but English immersion before kids are placed into classrooms might be the way to deal with this problem.
 

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