The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?

[Hollie]

LOL, the author was far from neutral in his views. Offered few first sources in support of his diatribe and all in all it was a boring read. Also as I recall he repeatedly repudiates his own stories by admitting he has very little source material. I can't remember for what class but I was tortured into ready what can at best be call a mundane and unsubstantiated view of the Arab Muslim colonial period.

Or in short
Yeah I read it ;--)

Whats your point ? Or are you simply avoiding the fact that the Arab Muslims are colonists in a foreign land

The colonists are the Jews. They came from elsewhere, the Muslims and Christians of Palestine are, by definition, the native people.

You mindlessly rattle on with cliche's and slogans not taking the time to learn.

The Ottomon colonists were not, by definition, native people. The Syrian, Lebaneses and Egyptian squatters were not, by definition, native people.

Take some time to learn, your definitions.

 

[Shusha]

LOL, the author was far from neutral in his views. Offered few first sources in support of his diatribe and all in all it was a boring read. Also as I recall he repeatedly repudiates his own stories by admitting he has very little source material. I can't remember for what class but I was tortured into ready what can at best be call a mundane and unsubstantiated view of the Arab Muslim colonial period.

Or in short
Yeah I read it ;--)

Whats your point ? Or are you simply avoiding the fact that the Arab Muslims are colonists in a foreign land

The colonists are the Jews. They came from elsewhere, the Muslims and Christians of Palestine are, by definition, the native people.

Being part of a group which is indigenous to an ancestral area is what confers their indigenousness, not the current place of residence. Indigenousness applies to the entire group and to each person belonging to the group.

 

[Boston1]

The final nail in this coffin is that the UN had to get creative when deciding who a palestinian was. According to them, its anyone residing in the mandated area within a two year period. Nationality, heritage, indiginous had nothing to do with it.

Now I ask you

Why was that ?

 

[Shusha]

The final nail in this coffin is that the UN had to get creative when deciding who a palestinian was. According to them, its anyone residing in the mandated area within a two year period. Nationality, heritage, indiginous had nothing to do with it.

Now I ask you

Why was that ?

Because they wanted to give Palestinians special privileges that no one else has ever had?

 

[Boston1]

Well first they had to invent palestinians

 

[montelatici]

PALESTINE.

CORRESPONDENCE
WITH THE
PALESTINE ARAB DELEGATION
AND THE
ZIONIST ORGANISATION.

Presented to Parliament by Command of His Majesty.
JUNE, 1922.
LONDON:


If to-day the People of Palestine assented to any constitution which fell short of giving them full control of their own affairs they would be in the position of agreeing to an instrument of Government which might, and probably would, be used to smother their national life under a flood of alien immigration.

UK correspondence with Palestine Arab Delegation and Zionist Organization/British policy in Palestine: "Churchill White Paper" - UK documentation Cmd. 1700/Non-UN document (excerpts) (1 July 1922)

 

[Challenger]

LOL, the author was far from neutral in his views. Offered few first sources in support of his diatribe and all in all it was a boring read. Also as I recall he repeatedly repudiates his own stories by admitting he has very little source material. I can't remember for what class but I was tortured into ready what can at best be call a mundane and unsubstantiated view of the Arab Muslim colonial period.

Or in short
Yeah I read it ;--)

Whats your point ? Or are you simply avoiding the fact that the Arab Muslims are colonists in a foreign land

My point is simple, you have no idea about this subject, or history in general outside of your Hasbara bubble. So you've read it, not just the 1 star review on Amazon? Good to know. Ok, what's chapter six called and on what page does it start (I'll give you 10 pages either way because in different editions it may start on different pages)?

If you have read it you will have noted the lack of colonisation of the conquered lands.

 

[Challenger]

What you call facts are what the rest of us call fantasies. Jews didn't colonize Judea, they developed both their language and culture right there, dating back to the dawn of written history.

How can anyone colonize their ancestral lands.

The Arab Muslims on the other hand did colonize Judea from the Arabian Peninsula right around the 9th century CE in what is known to history as the Arab conquest.

You don't read much history do you ?

And you have no proof or evidence to support your generalization that non jews had been living in the area of the mandate for generations.

What is known is that at the time of the Arab conquest many if not most of the reagions inhabitants were slaughtered in typical Arab Muslim fashion, convert or die.

We also know that a sufficient number of Arab Muslim colonists remained to enforce their influence on whatever of the population remained.

What we don't know is what percentage of teh population remained or what percentage of population was Arab Muslim colonists.

So you really have no supporting evidence for your claims.

Any way you slice it basic science shows that the proto Judaic people inhabited the Canaan valley area long before the Arab Muslim ever even existed.

But I am kinda curious, tell me Clifford ;--)

Judeans lived there before, during and after, they just converted over time. Jewish European Zionists colonised Palestine in the 20th century.

 

[Boston1]

You really are dreaming if you think I still have any but the better of my books from my college days. From what I recall the book sucked and was mostly conjecture. I also recall the class it came up in giving it really bad review and pretty much berating the professor for making us read it. Later I think it was dropped from the curriculum.

While one of my more favorite authors ( Finkelstein ) pointed out some errors in another book you would do well to read "From Time Immemorial" which I do have sitting around here somewhere. Now that one went through several stages of reviews. Initially acclaimed as the definitive work, errors were found which in the academic world means someone is going to be jumping down your throat. But regardless its a great read and offers so much information that it was almost inevitable that over time some percentage of that information would be refuted.

So yeah, best of luck suggesting crappy books that don't offer any substance as some of us are actually read on this subject.

Speaking of which, here's something else you might read

Quote

WHO ARE PALESTINE REFUGEES?
Palestine refugees are defined as “persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine during the period 1 June 1946 to 15 May 1948, and who lost both home and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 conflict.”
UNRWA services are available to all those living in its area of operations who meet this definition, who are registered with the Agency and who need assistance. The descendants of Palestine refugee males, including adopted children, are also eligible for registration. When the Agency began operations in 1950, it was responding to the needs of about 750,000 Palestine refugees. Today, some 5 million Palestine refugees are eligible for UNRWA services.

End Quote

Notice there is no qualification of ethnicity, nationality, indiginous status or any other consideration but a 2 year stint in the mandated area.

The fun part comes when you ( assuming you've ever actually discussed these issues before ) consider just how many of that original 750,000 refugees were actually combatants and didn't actually qualify for refugee status. Consider that the UNWRA is almost entirely staffed by Arab Muslims who apparently don't read either and failed to follow the UNs own policy of segregating combatants from refugees.

So once we establish an estimate for how many of the refugees were either combatants, assisted combatants or could be suspected of assisting or engaging in acts against the state then we get to the even stickier issue of the descendants of people who don't qualify as refugees living in refugee camps only because the UNWRA Arab Muslim employees refuse to segregate combatants from protected persons

Anyway chew on that for a while and get back to us because who exactly qualifies as a refugee is sorta important ;--)

 

[Challenger]

Ah, thought so.

So yeah, best of luck suggesting crappy books that don't offer any substance as some of us are actually read on this subject.

At least you didn't say "well read"; that would have proved beyond doubt you have absolutely no idea. Another triumph for the American educational system.

 

[Challenger]

"I was born in Israel and it was many years before I realized that Israel was Palestine." --Gilad Atzmon

Someone else whose thoughts are worth the read, if you agree with him or not.

 

[Boston1]

You really are dreaming if you think I still have any but the better of my books from my college days. From what I recall the book sucked and was mostly conjecture. I also recall the class it came up in giving it really bad review and pretty much berating the professor for making us read it. Later I think it was dropped from the curriculum.

While one of my more favorite authors ( Finkelstein ) pointed out some errors in another book you would do well to read "From Time Immemorial" which I do have sitting around here somewhere. Now that one went through several stages of reviews. Initially acclaimed as the definitive work, errors were found which in the academic world means someone is going to be jumping down your throat. But regardless its a great read and offers so much information that it was almost inevitable that over time some percentage of that information would be refuted.

So yeah, best of luck suggesting crappy books that don't offer any substance as some of us are actually read on this subject.

Speaking of which, here's something else you might read

Quote

WHO ARE PALESTINE REFUGEES?
Palestine refugees are defined as “persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine during the period 1 June 1946 to 15 May 1948, and who lost both home and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 conflict.”
UNRWA services are available to all those living in its area of operations who meet this definition, who are registered with the Agency and who need assistance. The descendants of Palestine refugee males, including adopted children, are also eligible for registration. When the Agency began operations in 1950, it was responding to the needs of about 750,000 Palestine refugees. Today, some 5 million Palestine refugees are eligible for UNRWA services.

End Quote

Notice there is no qualification of ethnicity, nationality, indiginous status or any other consideration but a 2 year stint in the mandated area.

The fun part comes when you ( assuming you've ever actually discussed these issues before ) consider just how many of that original 750,000 refugees were actually combatants and didn't actually qualify for refugee status. Consider that the UNWRA is almost entirely staffed by Arab Muslims who apparently don't read either and failed to follow the UNs own policy of segregating combatants from refugees.

So once we establish an estimate for how many of the refugees were either combatants, assisted combatants or could be suspected of assisting or engaging in acts against the state then we get to the even stickier issue of the descendants of people who don't qualify as refugees living in refugee camps only because the UNWRA Arab Muslim employees refuse to segregate combatants from protected persons

Anyway chew on that for a while and get back to us because who exactly qualifies as a refugee is sorta important ;--)

Sorry Challenger but your consistent inability to address any of the points presented isn't very convincing.

If you'd rather discuss authors your welcome to do so IN ANOTHER THREAD. Our moderators have asked us to stay on topic.

If you have any rebuttal to the issues presented feel free. Had you actually read the thread we were up to the qualifications of a refugee and if it included any requirement of an indigenous character, which it doesn't

Kinda throws a wrench into all this diatribe about Arab Muslims being indigenous to the Canaan valley area. Whoops, there's that term again ;--) did you ever look up just where they valley is and its relation to the mandated area ?

Something tells me you aren't all that well read on that either ;--)

So please lets just stick on topic and you can discuss all the revisionist holocaust denying authors you want elsewhere.

Although if you are seriously suggesting Atzman you really are barking up the wrong tree.

So how about that UN definition of a palestinian refugee ;--) Kinda blows your indigenous argument right out of the water as indigenous clearly has nothing to do with it.

 

[Challenger]

Sorry Challenger but your consistent inability to address any of the points presented isn't very convincing.

Happy to address a point once you make one worth addressing.

UNWRA is irrelevant to resolving who is indigenous to Palestine, but that said, the refugees UNWRA deals with nevertheless have a much greater claim to being indigenous than the Russians, Poles, Hungarians and other Eastern Europeans who came over on the boat in the 20th century.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Sorry Challenger but your consistent inability to address any of the points presented isn't very convincing.

Happy to address a point once you make one worth addressing.

UNWRA is irrelevant to resolving who is indigenous to Palestine, but that said, the refugees UNWRA deals with nevertheless have a much greater claim to being indigenous than the Russians, Poles, Hungarians and other Eastern Europeans who came over on the boat in the 20th century.

The UNWRA does not define refugees. They only define who qualifies for aid.

 

[Challenger]

Kinda throws a wrench into all this diatribe about Arab Muslims being indigenous to the Canaan valley area. Whoops, there's that term again ;--) did you ever look up just where they valley is and its relation to the mandated area ?

Comprehension not your strongpoint is it? I'll write it once again, slowly for you. There is no evidence that the indigenous people of the area called Palestine were ever displaced in any significant numbers by the Arab conquerors. Arab nobles/chieftains took over vacant estates left by the Roman nobles who chose to leave rather than pay taxes or convert, the peasantry remained in place. Over the next century or so these people took up Arabic language and customs and voluntarily converted to Islam (mainly to avoid taxes). If you can demonstrate otherwise, please do.

 

[Boston1]

Sorry Challenger but your consistent inability to address any of the points presented isn't very convincing.

Happy to address a point once you make one worth addressing.

UNWRA is irrelevant to resolving who is indigenous to Palestine, but that said, the refugees UNWRA deals with nevertheless have a much greater claim to being indigenous than the Russians, Poles, Hungarians and other Eastern Europeans who came over on the boat in the 20th century.

I didn't think so ;--)

You're making baseless claims again. The UN definition is all it takes to understand that first nations status had exactly zero to do with who is or isn't a palestinian.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...WW_CUqLgHR9t9XQZMb9wcA&bvm=bv.112454388,d.amc

Also your assumption ( again offered with no basis in fact ) that the returnees were all from Europe is demonstrably wrong

Although Wiki isn't our best source its easy so I'll use it cause I doubt you read the links anyway LOL ;--)

Only about 35% of the Judaic population in Israel are from Europe ;--)

Demographics of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So again the baseless claims and assumptions are pretty easily proven false. Its actually a pretty easy game of find the flaw as the palestinian narrative seems entirely based on false information and revisionist history.

 

[Boston1]

Kinda throws a wrench into all this diatribe about Arab Muslims being indigenous to the Canaan valley area. Whoops, there's that term again ;--) did you ever look up just where they valley is and its relation to the mandated area ?

Comprehension not your strongpoint is it? I'll write it once again, slowly for you. There is no evidence that the indigenous people of the area called Palestine were ever displaced in any significant numbers by the Arab conquerors. Arab nobles/chieftains took over vacant estates left by the Roman nobles who chose to leave rather than pay taxes or convert, the peasantry remained in place. Over the next century or so these people took up Arabic language and customs and voluntarily converted to Islam (mainly to avoid taxes). If you can demonstrate otherwise, please do.

Your funny.

Your argument is nonexistent, you don't provide a single corroborating source and so far everything you've claimed had been demonstrably false. ( through the use of even just basic source material ) so yeah, not feeling any tremendous inclination to simply take your word for it. LOL

 

[montelatici]

Kinda throws a wrench into all this diatribe about Arab Muslims being indigenous to the Canaan valley area. Whoops, there's that term again ;--) did you ever look up just where they valley is and its relation to the mandated area ?

Comprehension not your strongpoint is it? I'll write it once again, slowly for you. There is no evidence that the indigenous people of the area called Palestine were ever displaced in any significant numbers by the Arab conquerors. Arab nobles/chieftains took over vacant estates left by the Roman nobles who chose to leave rather than pay taxes or convert, the peasantry remained in place. Over the next century or so these people took up Arabic language and customs and voluntarily converted to Islam (mainly to avoid taxes). If you can demonstrate otherwise, please do.

Your funny.

Your argument is nonexistent, you don't provide a single corroborating source and so far everything you've claimed had been demonstrably false. ( through the use of even just basic source material ) so yeah, not feeling any tremendous inclination to simply take your word for it. LOL

Everything you have claimed is demonstrably false. All source documentation disproves your every assertion.

 

[Boston1]

More baseless claims from the racist mob.

No citations
No references
No thing

You've got nothing

The indigenous people of Judea are Judaic ;--) Its pretty basic. And they can be traced back to the early middle bronze age and even beyond.

The Arab Muslim colonists can at best only be traced back to the 7th to 9th centuries CE

 

[Challenger]

Also your assumption ( again offered with no basis in fact ) that the returnees were all from Europe is demonstrably wrong

Although Wiki isn't our best source its easy so I'll use it cause I doubt you read the links anyway LOL ;--)

Only about 35% of the Judaic population in Israel are from Europe ;--)

Demographics of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So again the baseless claims and assumptions are pretty easily proven false. Its actually a pretty easy game of find the flaw as the palestinian narrative seems entirely based on false information and revisionist history.

Really.

Check the Palestine Census of 1931 and when you discount that as "false information" and "revisionist history" Have a look at the Israeli Ministry of Aliya and Immigrant Absorbtion website which describes the various waves of European colonists who came over on the boat up until 1939, when you do the maths you find the figures are fairly close between the two sites up until the 5th Aliya. The Israeli government site points out that on average no more than 10% of Jewish colonists/immigrants came from outside Europe up until 1939, mainly from Yemen and Iraq. This means that 90% of Zionist colonists from 1882 to 1939 were indigenous Europeans. Oh, in case you are wondering, the 5th Aliya which boosted the colonialist population dramatically all came from Europe according to the Israeli site;
"The year 1929 began with signs of economical revival, which stimulated a new influx of immigrants known as the Fifth Aliyah. During the period of the Fifth Aliyah, which continued until the outbreak of the Second World War, more than a quarter of a million immigrants arrived from all parts of Europe, including Western and Central Europe."

https://ia800304.us.archive.org/18/...ndAdministrativeAreas/PalestineCensus1931.pdf

Know Israel

When you've done that, you can crawl back into your Hasbara bubble and get back to making things up for your masters.