The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?

[rylah]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
⁜→ MartyNYC, et al,

BLUF: Well, that is not entirely true. You might have to qualify that statement a bit.

No place “palestine“ ever existed.

(COMMENT)

There are THREE essential documents on the subject that should be required reading if you are going to broach this subject:

◈ 1922: Part I • Preliminary • Title: Palestine Order in Council (Paragraph 1)​

◈ 1948 - Memorandum "A" contained in: A/AC.21/UK/42 LEGAL MEANING OF THE “TERMINATION OF THE MANDATE”​

◈ 2012- UN Memo on Issue of the use of the name "Palestine." (Formerly For: Internal Use Only)​

I won't regurgitate what is already written. I doubt as to whether or not I could improve on the developments pertaining to the reality (or not) of Palestine; as outlined here.

What I would say, is that "Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine" is an idea, ⁜→ in the same way, that Americans say: The Land of the Free and Home of the Brave;" - or ⁜→ the idea in the Israeli saying: "To live in freedom in the land of Zion and Jerusalem." These are ideas that spring from the heart. Unlike the Arab Palestinian Idea that is kept by pure hatred and venom.

Most Respectfully,
R

These are ideas that spring from the heart. Unlike the Arab Palestinian Idea that is kept by pure hatred and venom.

Are you saying that Israel's actions have nothing to do with this so called hate?

The hate that initiated the Zionist uprising?
Arabs sure didn't expect to be defeated by dhimmis.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: There is an enormous difference between:

An Arab Palestinian based on

These are ideas that spring from the heart. Unlike the Arab Palestinian Idea that is kept by pure hatred and venom.

Are you saying that Israel's actions have nothing to do with this so called hate?

(COMMENT)

What a difference it makes when there is an alternative approach to peace other than → "Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine."

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Coyote]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: There is an enormous difference between:

An Arab Palestinian based on

These are ideas that spring from the heart. Unlike the Arab Palestinian Idea that is kept by pure hatred and venom.

Are you saying that Israel's actions have nothing to do with this so called hate?

(COMMENT)

What a difference it makes when there is an alternative approach to peace other than → "Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine."

Most Respectfully,
R

I could be misunderstanding something here, but I think it's a mistake to assume that all or even most Palestinian identity springs from hate and venom. Sometimes, I think that is what the media would have us think and what they choose to report on when it comes to Palestinians.

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: There is an enormous difference between:

An Arab Palestinian based on

These are ideas that spring from the heart. Unlike the Arab Palestinian Idea that is kept by pure hatred and venom.

Are you saying that Israel's actions have nothing to do with this so called hate?

(COMMENT)

What a difference it makes when there is an alternative approach to peace other than → "Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine."

Most Respectfully,
R

Why is there a need to liberate Palestine?

 

[MartyNYC]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: There is an enormous difference between:

An Arab Palestinian based on

These are ideas that spring from the heart. Unlike the Arab Palestinian Idea that is kept by pure hatred and venom.

Are you saying that Israel's actions have nothing to do with this so called hate?

(COMMENT)

What a difference it makes when there is an alternative approach to peace other than → "Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine."

Most Respectfully,
R

Why is there a need to liberate Palestine?

Palestine originated as a fictional Roman name imposed on Jews’ homeland. It has since been liberated.

 

[MartyNYC]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: There is an enormous difference between:

An Arab Palestinian based on

These are ideas that spring from the heart. Unlike the Arab Palestinian Idea that is kept by pure hatred and venom.

Are you saying that Israel's actions have nothing to do with this so called hate?

(COMMENT)

What a difference it makes when there is an alternative approach to peace other than → "Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine."

Most Respectfully,
R

I could be misunderstanding something here, but I think it's a mistake to assume that all or even most Palestinian identity springs from hate and venom. Sometimes, I think that is what the media would have us think and what they choose to report on when it comes to Palestinians.

This “palestinian” leader acknowledged it‘s a bogus identity used as anti-Israel propaganda
PLO head honcho in 1977: “Palestinian identity is just a tactical ploy”

 

[Coyote]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: There is an enormous difference between:

An Arab Palestinian based on

These are ideas that spring from the heart. Unlike the Arab Palestinian Idea that is kept by pure hatred and venom.

Are you saying that Israel's actions have nothing to do with this so called hate?

(COMMENT)

What a difference it makes when there is an alternative approach to peace other than → "Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine."

Most Respectfully,
R

I could be misunderstanding something here, but I think it's a mistake to assume that all or even most Palestinian identity springs from hate and venom. Sometimes, I think that is what the media would have us think and what they choose to report on when it comes to Palestinians.

This “palestinian” leader acknowledged it‘s a bogus identity used as anti-Israel propaganda
PLO head honcho in 1977: “Palestinian identity is just a tactical ploy”

I don't see what that has to do with what I said.

 

[MartyNYC]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: There is an enormous difference between:

An Arab Palestinian based on

These are ideas that spring from the heart. Unlike the Arab Palestinian Idea that is kept by pure hatred and venom.

Are you saying that Israel's actions have nothing to do with this so called hate?

(COMMENT)

What a difference it makes when there is an alternative approach to peace other than → "Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine."

Most Respectfully,
R

I could be misunderstanding something here, but I think it's a mistake to assume that all or even most Palestinian identity springs from hate and venom. Sometimes, I think that is what the media would have us think and what they choose to report on when it comes to Palestinians.

This “palestinian” leader acknowledged it‘s a bogus identity used as anti-Israel propaganda
PLO head honcho in 1977: “Palestinian identity is just a tactical ploy”

I don't see what that has to do with what I said.

The “palestinian“ identity in large part was formed as a result of hostility toward British rule and Jewish immigration in the British Mandate. Arabs originally identified as Arabs or Syrians or Muslims, not as palestinians, particularly given the development of Arab nationalism.

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: There is an enormous difference between:

An Arab Palestinian based on

These are ideas that spring from the heart. Unlike the Arab Palestinian Idea that is kept by pure hatred and venom.

Are you saying that Israel's actions have nothing to do with this so called hate?

(COMMENT)

What a difference it makes when there is an alternative approach to peace other than → "Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine."

Most Respectfully,
R

I could be misunderstanding something here, but I think it's a mistake to assume that all or even most Palestinian identity springs from hate and venom. Sometimes, I think that is what the media would have us think and what they choose to report on when it comes to Palestinians.

This “palestinian” leader acknowledged it‘s a bogus identity used as anti-Israel propaganda
PLO head honcho in 1977: “Palestinian identity is just a tactical ploy”

I don't see what that has to do with what I said.

Indeed, I know the feeling.

 

[Coyote]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: There is an enormous difference between:

An Arab Palestinian based on

These are ideas that spring from the heart. Unlike the Arab Palestinian Idea that is kept by pure hatred and venom.

Are you saying that Israel's actions have nothing to do with this so called hate?

(COMMENT)

What a difference it makes when there is an alternative approach to peace other than → "Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine."

Most Respectfully,
R

I could be misunderstanding something here, but I think it's a mistake to assume that all or even most Palestinian identity springs from hate and venom. Sometimes, I think that is what the media would have us think and what they choose to report on when it comes to Palestinians.

This “palestinian” leader acknowledged it‘s a bogus identity used as anti-Israel propaganda
PLO head honcho in 1977: “Palestinian identity is just a tactical ploy”

I don't see what that has to do with what I said.

The “palestinian“ identity in large part was formed as a result of hostility toward British rule and Jewish immigration in the British Mandate. Arabs originally identified as Arabs or Syrians or Muslims, not as palestinians, particularly given the development of Arab nationalism.

Which occurred around the same time as Jewish Nationalism. The point is - however their nationalist identity was achieved - it exists now and the people, who hold it, largely descend from people who have been there for a very long time.

 

[MartyNYC]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: There is an enormous difference between:

An Arab Palestinian based on

These are ideas that spring from the heart. Unlike the Arab Palestinian Idea that is kept by pure hatred and venom.

Are you saying that Israel's actions have nothing to do with this so called hate?

(COMMENT)

What a difference it makes when there is an alternative approach to peace other than → "Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine."

Most Respectfully,
R

I could be misunderstanding something here, but I think it's a mistake to assume that all or even most Palestinian identity springs from hate and venom. Sometimes, I think that is what the media would have us think and what they choose to report on when it comes to Palestinians.

This “palestinian” leader acknowledged it‘s a bogus identity used as anti-Israel propaganda
PLO head honcho in 1977: “Palestinian identity is just a tactical ploy”

I don't see what that has to do with what I said.

The “palestinian“ identity in large part was formed as a result of hostility toward British rule and Jewish immigration in the British Mandate. Arabs originally identified as Arabs or Syrians or Muslims, not as palestinians, particularly given the development of Arab nationalism.

Which occurred around the same time as Jewish Nationalism. The point is - however their nationalist identity was achieved - it exists now and the people, who hold it, largely descend from people who have been there for a very long time.

Jewish nationalism developed in antiquity, such as reflected by the Hasmoneans, and earlier. Later, reflected by the Jewish wars against the Roman Empire in the first century.

 

[MartyNYC]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: There is an enormous difference between:

An Arab Palestinian based on

These are ideas that spring from the heart. Unlike the Arab Palestinian Idea that is kept by pure hatred and venom.

Are you saying that Israel's actions have nothing to do with this so called hate?

(COMMENT)

What a difference it makes when there is an alternative approach to peace other than → "Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine."

Most Respectfully,
R

I could be misunderstanding something here, but I think it's a mistake to assume that all or even most Palestinian identity springs from hate and venom. Sometimes, I think that is what the media would have us think and what they choose to report on when it comes to Palestinians.

This “palestinian” leader acknowledged it‘s a bogus identity used as anti-Israel propaganda
PLO head honcho in 1977: “Palestinian identity is just a tactical ploy”

I don't see what that has to do with what I said.

The “palestinian“ identity in large part was formed as a result of hostility toward British rule and Jewish immigration in the British Mandate. Arabs originally identified as Arabs or Syrians or Muslims, not as palestinians, particularly given the development of Arab nationalism.

Which occurred around the same time as Jewish Nationalism. The point is - however their nationalist identity was achieved - it exists now and the people, who hold it, largely descend from people who have been there for a very long time.

Arabs began calling themselves palestinians mostly in the 1960s. “Palestinian Charter” was issued in 1964. Not very ancient. Jews were first called palestinians by the British. It’s a made-up Euro name.

 

[rylah]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: There is an enormous difference between:

An Arab Palestinian based on

These are ideas that spring from the heart. Unlike the Arab Palestinian Idea that is kept by pure hatred and venom.

Are you saying that Israel's actions have nothing to do with this so called hate?

(COMMENT)

What a difference it makes when there is an alternative approach to peace other than → "Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine."

Most Respectfully,
R

I could be misunderstanding something here, but I think it's a mistake to assume that all or even most Palestinian identity springs from hate and venom. Sometimes, I think that is what the media would have us think and what they choose to report on when it comes to Palestinians.

This “palestinian” leader acknowledged it‘s a bogus identity used as anti-Israel propaganda
PLO head honcho in 1977: “Palestinian identity is just a tactical ploy”

I don't see what that has to do with what I said.

The “palestinian“ identity in large part was formed as a result of hostility toward British rule and Jewish immigration in the British Mandate. Arabs originally identified as Arabs or Syrians or Muslims, not as palestinians, particularly given the development of Arab nationalism.

Which occurred around the same time as Jewish Nationalism. The point is - however their nationalist identity was achieved - it exists now and the people, who hold it, largely descend from people who have been there for a very long time.

I know what you meant, but still I think this is important:

Jewish nationalism didn't start at some point in the late 19th century,
Judaism in itself, in spite common misconception, is by definition a national identity.
And before modern Zionism, which merely became famous for being successful, there were a variety of visionary movements essentially seeking to re-establish a Jewish commonwealth.

Modern Zionism of Herzl ztz"l is a direct successor of the ancient Zionism of the prophets of Israel in the Babylonian diaspora, and the original Zionism of Mosheh Rabbenu A"H.

"And Mosheh went out to see the work of his people,
and he saw an Egyptian man striking Dryfus..."

 

[Shusha]

Why is there a need to liberate Palestine?

There is no such need. The Jewish Palestinians (now Israelis) have already been liberated. The Arab Palestinians have already been liberated in Jordan, and in Gaza. And the matter of the West Bank is easily solved with a minimum effort of drawing borders and a peace treaty and then they too will be liberated and free to do as they please within the boundaries of their State.

The problem is with those Arab Palestinians who define "liberation" as the destruction of the Jewish liberty.

 

[Shusha]

Which occurred around the same time as Jewish Nationalism. The point is - however their nationalist identity was achieved - it exists now and the people, who hold it, largely descend from people who have been there for a very long time.

Well, when we are discussing "nationalism" of either the Jewish or the Arab Palestinian variety, we are conflating a number of disparate ideas, some of which have LONG been held by the Jewish people and some of which are new possibilities, including Statehood.

However, I tend to agree with you that Arab Palestinian national identity exists now and has to be dealt with. We can't continue to allow people to put their fingers in their ears and scream, "But, but Palestine doesn't exist." It doesn't exist quite yet as a State (though barring an implosion of some sort, it will inevitably achieve this), but Arab Palestinian national identity certainly does exist. And its foolish not to acknowledge this.


Also:
How Arab Muslims especially and Muslims generally will ultimately solve the inherent conflict between their national identity vs. their longed-for caliphate is unknown.

 

[Coyote]

Which occurred around the same time as Jewish Nationalism. The point is - however their nationalist identity was achieved - it exists now and the people, who hold it, largely descend from people who have been there for a very long time.

Well, when we are discussing "nationalism" of either the Jewish or the Arab Palestinian variety, we are conflating a number of disparate ideas, some of which have LONG been held by the Jewish people and some of which are new possibilities, including Statehood.

However, I tend to agree with you that Arab Palestinian national identity exists now and has to be dealt with. We can't continue to allow people to put their fingers in their ears and scream, "But, but Palestine doesn't exist." It doesn't exist quite yet as a State (though barring an implosion of some sort, it will inevitably achieve this), but Arab Palestinian national identity certainly does exist. And its foolish not to acknowledge this.


Also:
How Arab Muslims especially and Muslims generally will ultimately solve the inherent conflict between their national identity vs. their longed-for caliphate is unknown.

Good points all, though I think Jewishness as a national identity rather than ethnic identity, didn’t emerge until other nationalist identity movements did with the break up of empires. The Jews by far have successfully achieved this, I think in large part to the diverse backgrounds of their population. They were and are uniquely able to create a nation without being trapped within just a Middle East orientation. unlike the Arab states they aren’t having to fight a modernization war with their culture.

 

[Coyote]

Why is there a need to liberate Palestine?

There is no such need. The Jewish Palestinians (now Israelis) have already been liberated. The Arab Palestinians have already been liberated in Jordan, and in Gaza. And the matter of the West Bank is easily solved with a minimum effort of drawing borders and a peace treaty and then they too will be liberated and free to do as they please within the boundaries of their State.

The problem is with those Arab Palestinians who define "liberation" as the destruction of the Jewish liberty.

That is a good way to put it.

 

[MartyNYC]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indigenous to Palestine?
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: There is an enormous difference between:

An Arab Palestinian based on

These are ideas that spring from the heart. Unlike the Arab Palestinian Idea that is kept by pure hatred and venom.

Are you saying that Israel's actions have nothing to do with this so called hate?

(COMMENT)

What a difference it makes when there is an alternative approach to peace other than → "Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine."

Most Respectfully,
R

I could be misunderstanding something here, but I think it's a mistake to assume that all or even most Palestinian identity springs from hate and venom. Sometimes, I think that is what the media would have us think and what they choose to report on when it comes to Palestinians.

This “palestinian” leader acknowledged it‘s a bogus identity used as anti-Israel propaganda
PLO head honcho in 1977: “Palestinian identity is just a tactical ploy”

I don't see what that has to do with what I said.

The “palestinian“ identity in large part was formed as a result of hostility toward British rule and Jewish immigration in the British Mandate. Arabs originally identified as Arabs or Syrians or Muslims, not as palestinians, particularly given the development of Arab nationalism.

Which occurred around the same time as Jewish Nationalism. The point is - however their nationalist identity was achieved - it exists now and the people, who hold it, largely descend from people who have been there for a very long time.

I know what you meant, but still I think this is important:

Jewish nationalism didn't start at some point in the late 19th century,
Judaism in itself, in spite common misconception, is by definition a national identity.
And before modern Zionism, which merely became famous for being successful, there were a variety of visionary movements essentially seeking to re-establish a Jewish commonwealth.

Modern Zionism of Herzl ztz"l is a direct successor of the ancient Zionism of the prophets of Israel in the Babylonian diaspora, and the original Zionism of Mosheh Rabbenu A"H.

"And Mosheh went out to see the work of his people,
and he saw an Egyptian man striking Dryfus..."

Maccabee revolt and Hasmonean state, s

Which occurred around the same time as Jewish Nationalism. The point is - however their nationalist identity was achieved - it exists now and the people, who hold it, largely descend from people who have been there for a very long time.

Well, when we are discussing "nationalism" of either the Jewish or the Arab Palestinian variety, we are conflating a number of disparate ideas, some of which have LONG been held by the Jewish people and some of which are new possibilities, including Statehood.

However, I tend to agree with you that Arab Palestinian national identity exists now and has to be dealt with. We can't continue to allow people to put their fingers in their ears and scream, "But, but Palestine doesn't exist." It doesn't exist quite yet as a State (though barring an implosion of some sort, it will inevitably achieve this), but Arab Palestinian national identity certainly does exist. And its foolish not to acknowledge this.


Also:
How Arab Muslims especially and Muslims generally will ultimately solve the inherent conflict between their national identity vs. their longed-for caliphate is unknown.

Good points all, though I think Jewishness as a national identity rather than ethnic identity, didn’t emerge until other nationalist identity movements did with the break up of empires. The Jews by far have successfully achieved this, I think in large part to the diverse backgrounds of their population. They were and are uniquely able to create a nation without being trapped within just a Middle East orientation. unlike the Arab states they aren’t having to fight a modernization war with their culture.

Ancient Jewish nationalism was solidified with the independent Jewish state of Judea under the Hasmoneans, second century BCE. The Maccabean Revolt was a rebellion against Hellenism and reaffirming Jewishness.

 

[Shusha]

...I think Jewishness as a national identity rather than ethnic identity, didn’t emerge until other nationalist identity movements did with the break up of empires.

This is where I argue that you/we are conflating many different related but distinct ideas. Statehood. Nationalism. National identity. Ethnic identity. Self-determination. Reconstitution. Independence. Return.

The Jews by far have successfully achieved this, I think in large part to the diverse backgrounds of their population.

I'd argue that it was because of the homogeneity of their backgrounds despite the diversity that was forced on them. But ... shrug. Not important as far as conversation between you and I goes.

They were and are uniquely able to create a nation without being trapped within just a Middle East orientation. unlike the Arab states they aren’t having to fight a modernization war with their culture.

Agreed.

 

[Coyote]

...I think Jewishness as a national identity rather than ethnic identity, didn’t emerge until other nationalist identity movements did with the break up of empires.

This is where I argue that you/we are conflating many different related but distinct ideas. Statehood. Nationalism. National identity. Ethnic identity. Self-determination. Reconstitution. Independence. Return.

The Jews by far have successfully achieved this, I think in large part to the diverse backgrounds of their population.

I'd argue that it was because of the homogeneity of their backgrounds despite the diversity that was forced on them. But ... shrug. Not important as far as conversation between you and I goes.

They were and are uniquely able to create a nation without being trapped within just a Middle East orientation. unlike the Arab states they aren’t having to fight a modernization war with their culture.

Agreed.

1. Possibly
2. I don’t know. I look at Israel and see similarities to countries like the US and Canada, where a gathering of multiple cultures sharing a common dream added a unique cultural perspective. I think in Israel, that being Jewish is the common thread uniting them in one dream, despite the diversity of backgrounds they came from, literally all over the world. They are an old people in a new nation, without all the baggage of old nations trying to adjust. JMO