The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?

[montelatici]

Secondly, your contention is so idiotic that if applied to any other people, e.g. the Hispanic people, you would deny that there is any difference culturally between a Colombian and an Argentine.

The indigenous cultures of Columbia and Argentina have both been heavily colored over by the same colonial and conquesting forces. Neither has much remaining indigenous culture. Indigenous groups comprise about 2-3% of the population.

That doesn't mean that Columbia and Argentina haven't developed unique and distinct cultural attributes on their own since their independence.

What, exactly, are you trying to argue here, Monte?

If I can speak for monte, I think he's trying to say that a Palestinian is very different from a Jordanian. After all, there is that star that differentiates the Jordanian and Palestinian flags.[/QUOTE

You are demonstrating a tremendous amount of ignorance. Bedouins (the indigenous Jordanians) are have a completely different culture and history than the Palestinians. The Bedouins of Jordan are Arabians, like the Saudis. The Palestinians are the descendants of the people of the Levant. Canaanites, Phoenicians, Samaritans, Jews, Romans, Greeks, Armenians etc. Completely different people.

 

[Boston1]

Sorry Billy but there was really noting of substance to respond to, although I did find it entertaining.

If you need a reminder

The subject is indigenous people and what qualifications are required to be considered one.

Nothing you've said so far in any way supports the idea that there is either a distinct cultural group of Arab Muslims in Judea, or that even if there is one, they somehow didn't already get a few states to call their own in Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. All of which encompass the exact same area that is the most likely source of immigration of Arabs into Judea in the second Arab colonial wave which seems to have begun sometime after 1850 and contunued into the late Zionist period. See DNA evidence provided ;--)

If you recall we already went over why the UN had to redefine what a refugee was in order to assist these nationals as refugees even thought Jordan had at this time given them Jordanian citizenship.

One way you can spot a troll, is they don't specifically address the points of an opposing post. That fits you like a glove.

I gave you an entire list of cultural similarities proving the Pals are indigenous to the area and to date, you haven't addressed a single one.

Personal attacks, bullshit innuendo's and strawman arguments, are all you got.

Just about fell out of my chair laughing when I read that. I love it.

So pointing out that your list has zero credibility isn't an answer ? The Nazi's can make all the lists they want they are still Nazi's.

How about something actually published, peer reviewed and found in a respected journal ? Rather than an op ed from an AMATEUR archeologist.

Oh I addressed your list all right, its just you can't handle the critique.

The simple facts are that the Judaic people developed in Judea and the Arabic people developed on the Arabian Peninsula. There's really no question ergo there's really no doubt. Unless its critical to ignore those realities in order to maintain what amounts to fantasies.

The Judaic people are hands down the indigenous people of what is today Israel.

Cheers

 

[montelatici]

The indigenous people of Palestine are the people that have always lived there, the Palestinians who are descendants of the original people of the area that underwent foreign influences including Jewish, Assyrian and other influences early on and Roman, Greek and Arabian influence later on.

The Zionists are self-described colonists from Europe.

 

[Boston1]

On multiple levels the Arab Muslims can be shown to have immigrated into Israel in several waves.

Care to show me?

No problem, and to save time I'll quote Wiki a bit but if you have trouble with it I'm sure I can find many other sources for the information.

Quote

The Islamization of Palestine occurred as a result of the Islamic conquest in 640. It was a long process that included immigration of Muslim Arabs, as well as other Muslims, from other regions, as well as conversion to Islam by some of the indigenous Christian, Samaritan and Jewish population of the area. Islam did not become the majority religion of Palestine until at least the 9th century and possibly even as late as the Mamluk era (1250–1516)

End Quote

Thus we have the first wave of Arab Muslim immigrants.

Lets look at another source just to make sure we can agree

Feel free to vet Mr Parks

Quote

According to the historian James William Parkes, during the 1st century after the Arab conquest (640–740), the caliph and governors of Syria and the Holy Land ruled entirely over Christian and Jewish subjects. He further states that apart from the Bedouin in the earliest days, the only Arabs west of the Jordan were the garrisons.[5]

James William Parkes, Whose Land? A History of the Peoples of Palestine (Penguin books, 1970), p. 66

End Quote

OK so now lets look at how many Muslims were actually in Jerusalem in the 1800s

Not sure this graph will paste but I'll give it a shot.

Nope

Ugh, OK I'll write out a few years showing just how few Muslims were in jerusalem

Year Jew Muslim Christian

1853, 8000, 4000, 3500,
Source
"Histoire de la rivalité et du protectorat des églises chrétiennes en Orient". Archive.org. Retrieved 2015-10-23.

1866 8000, 4000, 4000
Source
Kark, Ruth; Oren-Nordheim, Michal (2001). Jerusalem and its environs: quarters, neighborhoods, villages, 1800-1948. Wayne State University Press. p. 28. ISBN 0-8143-2909-8. Retrieved 14 July 2011.

Lets look at 1885 which is one of the last years before we get to the Zionist period

1885 15000, 6000, 14000
Source
Kark, Ruth; Oren-Nordheim, Michal (2001). Jerusalem and its environs: quarters, neighborhoods, villages, 1800-1948. Wayne State University Press. p. 28. ISBN 0-8143-2909-8. Retrieved 14 July 2011.

So now lets look at the what the rest of palestine looked like. Thing to remember is that we don't really know what the area of palestine was durring the Ottoman times because there was no area specifically called palestine on Ottoman maps. Instead we have a number of provinces. Gaza, Acre and Lebanon, all in southern Syria. So unless we know what area the various sources are counting its a little difficult to compare numbers. But lets give it a shot anyway

In the graph offered on WIKI we have some specifics but they clearly will blur the issue given that these numbers include Jordan, and doesn't include internal movements.

Quote

Demographic history of Palestine refers to the study of the historical population of the region of Palestine, defined as the modern State of Israel, Jordan and the Palestinian territories, or the territory defined by the borders of the 1923-48 Mandatory Palestine.

End Quote

Although this link does describe large numbers of Arabs immigrating into the above defined area.

Demographic history of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The following graph is of undefined palestine

Source
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...8wp5XYyQyaXa88LxLVf8rg&bvm=bv.113034660,d.amc

In the above graph you can see two waves of Arab immigration. One pre 1915 and one in the Zionist period matching nearly exactly the growth in the Judaic population.

Lets take a look at the "Harvard Israel Review"

Source
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...UWbsc4iSEhESWKyxWr38uQ&bvm=bv.113034660,d.amc

Quote

From the period of the Crusades to the beginning of modern times, the population of Palestine remained at a near constant level.2This apparent stability is significant, as populations naturally tend to increase over time. It is estimated that there were 205,000 people living in Palestine in the mid 1500s.3By 1800, the population had only grown to 275,000, reflecting about a thousandth of a percent of average growth a year.4By 1890, still before any significant Jewish immigration, the population had made a slightly larger jump, to 532,000.5But even with this increase, the nineteenth century growth rate was still a small 0.7% per year.6By comparison, in the 1940s the Muslim growth rate in the Middle East was closer to 3.07%.7

A number of factors account for this dramatic underpopulation, one of which is environmental. Many people fled the area as early as the fourteenth century as a result of the Black Plague.

( snip )

Soon afterwards, during World War I, the Ottomans tried to muster troops from the region, prompting many of the upper classes to flee. It appears that the war prompted a massive flight, immediately followed by a huge influx. According to contemporary surveys, the Arab population declined by 35,000 during the years 1915 to 1919. While many Arabs may have fled to escape the draft, others were expelled by force. To defend against the British, the Ottomans, still nominally in control, expelled both Jews and Arabs from cities across the coast on the assumption that their nationalistic intentions could lead them to sympathize with the British invaders. This effort was massive: twenty-eight thousand Arabs were forced out of Gaza alone.21By 1922, however, just three years later, the Arab population had increased by 80,000 above the 1919 level.22

( snip )

After years of relative stagnation, the few decades leading up to 1948 saw significant growth in both Arab and Jewish populations. Had the Arab population remained at its pre-WWI growth rate (0.8%) after 1922, one would have expected a population of approximately 785,000 by 1947. But there were in fact between 1.2 and 1.3 million Arabs in all of Palestine by 1947.26What could have caused this sudden burst?

To investigate possible causes, it is important to examine where in the country the growth took place. Non-Jewish population growth rates were highest within modern-day sovereign Israel and in the West Bank and Gaza Strip regions. These rates cannot be explained by higher birth rates alone.

One major factor accounting for the unexpected growth was the potential for upward mobility that existed in the western cities. The wages of western cities were more attractive, no doubt bringing many people from surrounding areas. Port cities also offered greater employment opportunities, which helps explain the fact that there was a dramatic influx into Haifa and Jaffa relative to cities like Beit-Shean and Jerusalem.

( big snip )

End Quote

That link is endlessly entertaining but the question of where all these Arabs came from is pretty well defined.

We know they were largely immigrants given the historically low pop growth rates. And we know the time frame of their arrival. We can also know that the Arab pop growth somehow miraculously matched the Judaic pop growth ( coincidence ? )

So the only conclusion can be that we have two distinct waves of Arab immigration. One in the Arab conquest period and another in the late Zionist period.

Ergo the Arabs cannot be the indigenous people of Judea

Case closed ;--)

 

[Hollie]

The indigenous people of Palestine are the people that have always lived there, the Palestinians who are descendants of the original people of the area that underwent foreign influences including Jewish, Assyrian and other influences early on and Roman, Greek and Arabian influence later on.

The Zionists are self-described colonists from Europe.

The Ottoman colonists as well as the Syrian, Lebanese and Egyptian colonists are invaders who have not "always lived there".

 

[Coyote]

This isn't hard work, Coyote, its actually already done, basic history is about all it is. There simply is no distinct palestinian culture, its virtually indistinguishable from Arab Muslim culture as a whole.

Even if someone wants to concede the issue its irrelevant as the Arab Muslims have more than fair representation in multiple states of the region. No reason at all the Judaic people shouldn't also be represented.

I think you and I will have to agree to disagree there. The Judaic people ARE represented, by a Jewish state.

And if the muslims had won in 1948/1949, or at any point after that the Jews would now be extinct in that part of the world. So who would have represented them then ? ? ?

But they didn't, so that's just another pointless statement.

 

[Coyote]

I think you and I will have to agree to disagree there. The Judaic people ARE represented, by a Jewish state.

Yes, but the gist of this thread, and indeed the foundational ideology of the entire conflict is that the Jewish people have no rights to self-determination and self-rule and that the Jewish National Home should be dismantled.. The arguments made here by myself and Boston are primarily to counter that line of thinking, both because it is the morally correct thing to do and because its the only way to peace.

See, I'm not seeing it that way....I see the arguments about indiginous-ity as a means to disenfranchise one or the other side, and I see it just as strongly played out by the pro-Israeli side seeking make Palestinians "non-People" with every rhetorical tool available: they are an invented people, they don't have a unique (enough) culture, they didn't exist before a certain date, they are squatters, they are colonists, they should be sent to some other country - the propoganda on that is relentness. How can you not see that? If arguments need to be countered - surely, they should be countered on both sides.

Boston is also trying to point out that the Palestinian people also already have representation and self-rule in Palestine -- Jordan. They already have a State. Boston is not wrong on that. He is absolutely correct. What they want now is at least one (realistically now two) more States. Part of the reason they want those two more States, not the entire reason, but part, is to accomplish the goal described above -- to dismantle the Jewish National Home.

However, I add that, regardless of their origins and the length of time they have existed as a distinct people, the West Bank and Gaza Palestinians are one now and because of that must be addressed. The only question is how to address them. I don't think Boston (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) objects to self-determination for a Palestinian people -- he just doesn't think it should be carved out of Israel.

If you mean by dismanteling Israel - I agree.

However, Israel took for itself the territory the Palestinians live on and has held it under occupation - utilizing that territory to create their state is not carving it out of Israel.

But it has not taken it, and those that say they have are the ones trying to dismantle Israel. The land was Jewish in law, and that can not be disputed by anyone. The evidence was the Jordanian enacting of a law to relieve the Jews of ownership of the lands that Jordan occupied in 1949 and turning it over to Palestinian ownership. The Oslo accords turned back the pages of history and allowed the Jews who owned land in the west bank to reclaim it and make it theirs again. So get your facts right and stop posting from the Jew hatred anti semitic islamonazi POV

Well yes. It can.

 

[Coyote]

This isn't hard work, Coyote, its actually already done, basic history is about all it is. There simply is no distinct palestinian culture, its virtually indistinguishable from Arab Muslim culture as a whole.

Even if someone wants to concede the issue its irrelevant as the Arab Muslims have more than fair representation in multiple states of the region. No reason at all the Judaic people shouldn't also be represented.

I think you and I will have to agree to disagree there. The Judaic people ARE represented, by a Jewish state.

They are now, and they should be, its the ONLY Jewish state. The Arabs on the other hand have something like 49 states, I'd have to go count them up but if anything the Arab Muslims are over represented, and the Judaic people, under.

States aren't allocated on the basis of religion or ethnicity on a tit for tat basis. How many states do Europeans have? They have 51. Don't you think we should give some of them to the Jews since they have double the number of states the Arabs do?

Arabs have 22 states: List of Arab countries by population - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Which European states have religious, cultural and racial ties to the Jewish people, when you find one then please let the world know. Then let the world know what ties muslims have to Jerusalem other that dar al islam and conquest

Since when is that a requirement? Folks are talking about equalizing the number of states per religious grouping (totally ridiculous argement to begin with). Christians have more states. They need to give some up since they did, afterall, kill 2/3 of the Jews in Europe.

 

[montelatici]

On multiple levels the Arab Muslims can be shown to have immigrated into Israel in several waves.

Care to show me?

No problem, and to save time I'll quote Wiki a bit but if you have trouble with it I'm sure I can find many other sources for the information.

Quote

The Islamization of Palestine occurred as a result of the Islamic conquest in 640. It was a long process that included immigration of Muslim Arabs, as well as other Muslims, from other regions, as well as conversion to Islam by some of the indigenous Christian, Samaritan and Jewish population of the area. Islam did not become the majority religion of Palestine until at least the 9th century and possibly even as late as the Mamluk era (1250–1516)

End Quote

Thus we have the first wave of Arab Muslim immigrants.

Lets look at another source just to make sure we can agree

Feel free to vet Mr Parks

Quote

According to the historian James William Parkes, during the 1st century after the Arab conquest (640–740), the caliph and governors of Syria and the Holy Land ruled entirely over Christian and Jewish subjects. He further states that apart from the Bedouin in the earliest days, the only Arabs west of the Jordan were the garrisons.[5]

James William Parkes, Whose Land? A History of the Peoples of Palestine (Penguin books, 1970), p. 66

End Quote

OK so now lets look at how many Muslims were actually in Jerusalem in the 1800s

Not sure this graph will paste but I'll give it a shot.

Nope

Ugh, OK I'll write out a few years showing just how few Muslims were in jerusalem

Year Jew Muslim Christian

1853, 8000, 4000, 3500,
Source
"Histoire de la rivalité et du protectorat des églises chrétiennes en Orient". Archive.org. Retrieved 2015-10-23.

1866 8000, 4000, 4000
Source
Kark, Ruth; Oren-Nordheim, Michal (2001). Jerusalem and its environs: quarters, neighborhoods, villages, 1800-1948. Wayne State University Press. p. 28. ISBN 0-8143-2909-8. Retrieved 14 July 2011.

Lets look at 1885 which is one of the last years before we get to the Zionist period

1885 15000, 6000, 14000
Source
Kark, Ruth; Oren-Nordheim, Michal (2001). Jerusalem and its environs: quarters, neighborhoods, villages, 1800-1948. Wayne State University Press. p. 28. ISBN 0-8143-2909-8. Retrieved 14 July 2011.

So now lets look at the what the rest of palestine looked like. Thing to remember is that we don't really know what the area of palestine was durring the Ottoman times because there was no area specifically called palestine on Ottoman maps. Instead we have a number of provinces. Gaza, Acre and Lebanon, all in southern Syria. So unless we know what area the various sources are counting its a little difficult to compare numbers. But lets give it a shot anyway

In the graph offered on WIKI we have some specifics but they clearly will blur the issue given that these numbers include Jordan, and doesn't include internal movements.

Quote

Demographic history of Palestine refers to the study of the historical population of the region of Palestine, defined as the modern State of Israel, Jordan and the Palestinian territories, or the territory defined by the borders of the 1923-48 Mandatory Palestine.

End Quote

Although this link does describe large numbers of Arabs immigrating into the above defined area.

Demographic history of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The following graph is of undefined palestine

Source
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&ved=0ahUKEwiVisrhyNnKAhVL7WMKHQDJDVYQFghmMA4&url=http://palestineisraelpopulation.blogspot.com/&usg=AFQjCNFkPjhDLDRMUXbakl_m8RXgpevANw&sig2=8wp5XYyQyaXa88LxLVf8rg&bvm=bv.113034660,d.amc

In the above graph you can see two waves of Arab immigration. One pre 1915 and one in the Zionist period matching nearly exactly the growth in the Judaic population.

Lets take a look at the "Harvard Israel Review"

Source
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=17&ved=0ahUKEwiVisrhyNnKAhVL7WMKHQDJDVYQFgh1MBA&url=http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~hireview/content.php?type=article&issue=spring01/&name=myth&usg=AFQjCNHHcVM40oadxVMyHydbwMwgZe8X1A&sig2=UWbsc4iSEhESWKyxWr38uQ&bvm=bv.113034660,d.amc

Quote

From the period of the Crusades to the beginning of modern times, the population of Palestine remained at a near constant level.2This apparent stability is significant, as populations naturally tend to increase over time. It is estimated that there were 205,000 people living in Palestine in the mid 1500s.3By 1800, the population had only grown to 275,000, reflecting about a thousandth of a percent of average growth a year.4By 1890, still before any significant Jewish immigration, the population had made a slightly larger jump, to 532,000.5But even with this increase, the nineteenth century growth rate was still a small 0.7% per year.6By comparison, in the 1940s the Muslim growth rate in the Middle East was closer to 3.07%.7

A number of factors account for this dramatic underpopulation, one of which is environmental. Many people fled the area as early as the fourteenth century as a result of the Black Plague.

( snip )

Soon afterwards, during World War I, the Ottomans tried to muster troops from the region, prompting many of the upper classes to flee. It appears that the war prompted a massive flight, immediately followed by a huge influx. According to contemporary surveys, the Arab population declined by 35,000 during the years 1915 to 1919. While many Arabs may have fled to escape the draft, others were expelled by force. To defend against the British, the Ottomans, still nominally in control, expelled both Jews and Arabs from cities across the coast on the assumption that their nationalistic intentions could lead them to sympathize with the British invaders. This effort was massive: twenty-eight thousand Arabs were forced out of Gaza alone.21By 1922, however, just three years later, the Arab population had increased by 80,000 above the 1919 level.22

( snip )

After years of relative stagnation, the few decades leading up to 1948 saw significant growth in both Arab and Jewish populations. Had the Arab population remained at its pre-WWI growth rate (0.8%) after 1922, one would have expected a population of approximately 785,000 by 1947. But there were in fact between 1.2 and 1.3 million Arabs in all of Palestine by 1947.26What could have caused this sudden burst?

To investigate possible causes, it is important to examine where in the country the growth took place. Non-Jewish population growth rates were highest within modern-day sovereign Israel and in the West Bank and Gaza Strip regions. These rates cannot be explained by higher birth rates alone.

One major factor accounting for the unexpected growth was the potential for upward mobility that existed in the western cities. The wages of western cities were more attractive, no doubt bringing many people from surrounding areas. Port cities also offered greater employment opportunities, which helps explain the fact that there was a dramatic influx into Haifa and Jaffa relative to cities like Beit-Shean and Jerusalem.

( big snip )

End Quote

That link is endlessly entertaining but the question of where all these Arabs came from is pretty well defined.

We know they were largely immigrants given the historically low pop growth rates. And we know the time frame of their arrival. We can also know that the Arab pop growth somehow miraculously matched the Judaic pop growth ( coincidence ? )

So the only conclusion can be that we have two distinct waves of Arab immigration. One in the Arab conquest period and another in the late Zionist period.

Ergo the Arabs cannot be the indigenous people of Judea

Case closed ;--)

UNITED​

NATIONS​

A

• 
  General Assembly

A/364
3 September 1947

OFFICIAL RECORDS OF THE SECOND SESSION OF ​

THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY​

​

SUPPLEMENT No. 11​

​

UNITED NATIONS
SPECIAL COMMITTEE
ON PALESTINE​

REPORT TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY

VOLUME 1

The only case that is closed is the one that you keep all that Zionist propaganda in. There was no Arab immigration to Palestine speak of. Nearly all the immigration was Jewish European.

(b)IMMIGRATION AND NATURAL INCREASE

15. These changes in the population have been brought about by two forces: natural increase and immigration. The great increase in the Jewish population is due in the main to immigration. From 1920 to 1946, the total number of recorded Jewish immigrants into Palestine was about 376,000, or an average of over 8,000 per year. The flow has not been regular, however, being fairly high in 1924 to 1926, falling in the next few years (there was a net emigration in 1927) and rising to even higher levels between 1933 and 1936 as a result of the Nazi persecution in Europe. Between the census year of 1931 and the year 1936, the proportion of Jews to the total population rose from 18 per cent to nearly 30 per cent.

16. The Arab population has increased almost entirely as a result of an excess of births over deaths. Indeed, the natural rate of increase of Moslem Arabs in Palestine is the highest in recorded statistics,1 a phenomenon explained by very high fertility rates coupled with a marked decline in death rates as a result of improved conditions of life and public health, The natural rate of increase of Jews is also relatively high, but is conditioned by a favorable age distribution of the population due to the high rate of immigration.

https://unispal.un.org/DPA/DPR/unispal.nsf/0/07175DE9FA2DE563852568D3006E10F3

Case closed.

 

[Boston1]

LOL

Are you seriously expecting us to believe that on Sept 3 1947 in a report to the general assembly it said.

Quote

The only case that is closed is the one that you keep all that Zionist propaganda in. There was no Arab immigration to Palestine speak of. Nearly all the immigration was Jewish European.

End Quote

Although it was a nice bait and switch.

The question wasn't if SOME Judaic people didn't return from outside the mandated area. We know they did. Roughly 35% from Europe and roughly 37% from the immediate vicinity.

The question was if the Arabs colonized the area in two waves. One during the initial Arab expansion and another in step with the late Zionist period.

Which can easily be seen in the information I presented in post # 244

Not that I'm expecting a straight answer but how is it that Arab immigration virtually exactly matches Judaic pop ?

Oh and the UN ? really ? Of the 190 or so state members we have what 22 Muslim and 57 Arab states. I'll err on the conservative side and suggest that all the Muslim states are also Arab in which case we have a voting block of 57 out of 190ish states. No room for bias there now is there.

 

[montelatici]

The information you are providing is useless Zionist propaganda. The UN Report is derived from actual British census and immigration reports and records contemporaneous to the period of immigration. It is also reported in the "Survey of Palestine" Vol. 1

Nearly 100% of the immigration to Palestine was from Europe, the Americas and Oceania before partition. Almost none from the immediate vicinity. This data is also available in "The Survey of Palestine" Vol. 1. All three volumes are available at the NYU/Wagner Berman Jewish Policy Archive. Here is the link to vol. 1.

A Survey of Palestine Volume 1 | Berman Jewish Policy Archive @ NYU Wagner

This is where you will find facts. You won't find facts in the propaganda you link to.

 

[Phoenall]

The indigenous people of Palestine are the people that have always lived there, the Palestinians who are descendants of the original people of the area that underwent foreign influences including Jewish, Assyrian and other influences early on and Roman, Greek and Arabian influence later on.

The Zionists are self-described colonists from Europe.

While the arab muslims are self described recent invaders from the arab league nations

 

[Phoenall]

The information you are providing is useless Zionist propaganda. The UN Report is derived from actual British census and immigration reports and records contemporaneous to the period of immigration. It is also reported in the "Survey of Palestine" Vol. 1

Nearly 100% of the immigration to Palestine was from Europe, the Americas and Oceania before partition. Almost none from the immediate vicinity. This data is also available in "The Survey of Palestine" Vol. 1. All three volumes are available at the NYU/Wagner Berman Jewish Policy Archive. Here is the link to vol. 1.

A Survey of Palestine Volume 1 | Berman Jewish Policy Archive @ NYU Wagner

This is where you will find facts. You won't find facts in the propaganda you link to.

So you find facts in an anti semitic novel written by a committee paid by the arab league. How is it the previous page to the one you cut and paste says the Jews owned the most land. And how is it they add all the various muslim groups together because the arab muslims were less in numbers than the Christians

 

[Phoenall]

This isn't hard work, Coyote, its actually already done, basic history is about all it is. There simply is no distinct palestinian culture, its virtually indistinguishable from Arab Muslim culture as a whole.

Even if someone wants to concede the issue its irrelevant as the Arab Muslims have more than fair representation in multiple states of the region. No reason at all the Judaic people shouldn't also be represented.

I think you and I will have to agree to disagree there. The Judaic people ARE represented, by a Jewish state.

And if the muslims had won in 1948/1949, or at any point after that the Jews would now be extinct in that part of the world. So who would have represented them then ? ? ?

But they didn't, so that's just another pointless statement.

Not when you read their testimony from before the war of independence, and their many charters from after the war of independence. You can even read their letters to the UN that say the same thing. There will never be peace while a Jew is allowed to live in Palestine, and the Palestinians will fight until either the Jews are wiped out or the Palestinians are eradicated. You can keep on saying that the Palestinians proclamations are pointless all you want, they show that they are out to massacre every Jew. So why are you in denial, is it your anti Semitism and Jew hatred that is driving your POV ?

 

[Shusha]

Nearly 100% of the immigration to Palestine was from Europe, the Americas and Oceania before partition. Almost none from the immediate vicinity.

You and Boston are arguing two different things. One is saying that most of the Jewish immigration prior to 1948 was from Europe and the Americas. The other is saying that only 35% of current Jewish citizens are descended from European and American immigrants (which would include both pre- and post- independence immigration). Its apples and oranges. Give it up. Its not important anyway, since the Jewish people are there now and they aren't going to go away.

 

[montelatici]

The people that colonized Palestine, ejected the native people from the land they had been living on for several millennia and established a state for Jews at the expense of the Christians and Muslims were nearly all European Zionists. That was my only point. Whether Jews from Mars or anywhere else arrived after the native people were dispossessed is not in question. Unless the Jews face the fact that they expropriated a whole people to create their Jewish state, why would they ever compromise and come to some sort of peace. If all Jews believe the propaganda that Boston posts, then the propaganda has them believing:

1. God gave them the land so it was ok to expropriate the Christians and Muslims
2. There were no non-Jews living in Palestine before the Zionists colonized the place.
3. The Palestinians don't exist.
4. The Palestinians arrived after partition.

etc. etc.etc. all Zionist propaganda.

And the lies go on and on.

 

[Phoenall]

I think you and I will have to agree to disagree there. The Judaic people ARE represented, by a Jewish state.

Yes, but the gist of this thread, and indeed the foundational ideology of the entire conflict is that the Jewish people have no rights to self-determination and self-rule and that the Jewish National Home should be dismantled.. The arguments made here by myself and Boston are primarily to counter that line of thinking, both because it is the morally correct thing to do and because its the only way to peace.

See, I'm not seeing it that way....I see the arguments about indiginous-ity as a means to disenfranchise one or the other side, and I see it just as strongly played out by the pro-Israeli side seeking make Palestinians "non-People" with every rhetorical tool available: they are an invented people, they don't have a unique (enough) culture, they didn't exist before a certain date, they are squatters, they are colonists, they should be sent to some other country - the propoganda on that is relentness. How can you not see that? If arguments need to be countered - surely, they should be countered on both sides.

Boston is also trying to point out that the Palestinian people also already have representation and self-rule in Palestine -- Jordan. They already have a State. Boston is not wrong on that. He is absolutely correct. What they want now is at least one (realistically now two) more States. Part of the reason they want those two more States, not the entire reason, but part, is to accomplish the goal described above -- to dismantle the Jewish National Home.

However, I add that, regardless of their origins and the length of time they have existed as a distinct people, the West Bank and Gaza Palestinians are one now and because of that must be addressed. The only question is how to address them. I don't think Boston (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) objects to self-determination for a Palestinian people -- he just doesn't think it should be carved out of Israel.

If you mean by dismanteling Israel - I agree.

However, Israel took for itself the territory the Palestinians live on and has held it under occupation - utilizing that territory to create their state is not carving it out of Israel.

But it has not taken it, and those that say they have are the ones trying to dismantle Israel. The land was Jewish in law, and that can not be disputed by anyone. The evidence was the Jordanian enacting of a law to relieve the Jews of ownership of the lands that Jordan occupied in 1949 and turning it over to Palestinian ownership. The Oslo accords turned back the pages of history and allowed the Jews who owned land in the west bank to reclaim it and make it theirs again. So get your facts right and stop posting from the Jew hatred anti semitic islamonazi POV

Well yes. It can.

Then dispute it in law, lets see how far you are prepared to go in your demonization of the Jews.


A history lesson for you that in itself proves that the land was Jewish.

Prior to 1900 the land was owned by the Ottoman empire that allowed minimal self rule by certain parts of the empire. The Ottomans went to war as allies of Germany and the Palestinians fought alongside their Mufti. They lost the war and so in line with the usual practise the losers lost land and goods to offset the costs incurred by the winning side. The land of Palestine was part of the reparations made to the LoN as the negotiators for the winning side. The LoN made treaties with various people allocating land to different groups, one of the groups was the Jews who received what was called Jewish Palestine, while the arab muslims received the lions share of all the land in the M.E. So dispute the international laws and the facts all you dare, as doing so will just show that you are a rabid anti Jew racist and Nazi.

 

[Phoenall]

This isn't hard work, Coyote, its actually already done, basic history is about all it is. There simply is no distinct palestinian culture, its virtually indistinguishable from Arab Muslim culture as a whole.

Even if someone wants to concede the issue its irrelevant as the Arab Muslims have more than fair representation in multiple states of the region. No reason at all the Judaic people shouldn't also be represented.

I think you and I will have to agree to disagree there. The Judaic people ARE represented, by a Jewish state.

They are now, and they should be, its the ONLY Jewish state. The Arabs on the other hand have something like 49 states, I'd have to go count them up but if anything the Arab Muslims are over represented, and the Judaic people, under.

States aren't allocated on the basis of religion or ethnicity on a tit for tat basis. How many states do Europeans have? They have 51. Don't you think we should give some of them to the Jews since they have double the number of states the Arabs do?

Arabs have 22 states: List of Arab countries by population - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Which European states have religious, cultural and racial ties to the Jewish people, when you find one then please let the world know. Then let the world know what ties muslims have to Jerusalem other that dar al islam and conquest

Since when is that a requirement? Folks are talking about equalizing the number of states per religious grouping (totally ridiculous argement to begin with). Christians have more states. They need to give some up since they did, afterall, kill 2/3 of the Jews in Europe.

Only you are talking about that so you can demonise the Jews again. The fact is the arab muslims have 99.9% of the land in the M.E. and they still want more. In fact they want to dominate the world and turn it into an Islamic caliphate ruled from Mecca. As for killing 2/3 of the Jews didn't the Russians already do that a few years earlier. And what about the American illegal colonists that killed 9/10 of the indigenous population then ?

 

[Phoenall]

The people that colonized Palestine, ejected the native people from the land they had been living on for several millennia and established a state for Jews at the expense of the Christians and Muslims were nearly all European Zionists. That was my only point. Whether Jews from Mars or anywhere else arrived after the native people were dispossessed is not in question. Unless the Jews face the fact that they expropriated a whole people to create their Jewish state, why would they ever compromise and come to some sort of peace. If all Jews believe the propaganda that Boston posts, then the propaganda has them believing:

1. God gave them the land so it was ok to expropriate the Christians and Muslims
2. There were no non-Jews living in Palestine before the Zionists colonized the place.
3. The Palestinians don't exist.
4. The Palestinians arrived after partition.

etc. etc.etc. all Zionist propaganda.

And the lies go on and on.

1 The lands legal sovereign owners gave the Jews the land under International law

2 The Catholic encyclopedia shows that the Ottomans counted more Jews than muslims in Palestine ( sanjak of Jerusalem)

3 Define Palestinians as the evidence shows that most arrived in the invasion forces from the arab league

4 So the evidence shows that they did arrive during the invasion, care to show they didn't.



Yes your lies do go on and on and on

 

[Shusha]

The people that colonized Palestine, ejected the native people from the land they had been living on for several millennia and established a state for Jews at the expense of the Christians and Muslims were nearly all European Zionists. That was my only point. Whether Jews from Mars or anywhere else arrived after the native people were dispossessed is not in question. Unless the Jews face the fact that they expropriated a whole people to create their Jewish state, why would they ever compromise and come to some sort of peace. If all Jews believe the propaganda that Boston posts, then the propaganda has them believing:

1. God gave them the land so it was ok to expropriate the Christians and Muslims
2. There were no non-Jews living in Palestine before the Zionists colonized the place.
3. The Palestinians don't exist.
4. The Palestinians arrived after partition.

etc. etc.etc. all Zionist propaganda.

And the lies go on and on.

You are doing a very poor job of following and understanding our argument, Monte. Intentional?

1. No one is arguing on this board from a theological perspective. Everyone on the pro-Israel side is arguing from the perspective of law and humanitarian rights.

2. No one is arguing that there weren't Arab Muslims and Arab Christians living in Palestine and nor that they haven't been living there for thousands of years.

3. No one is arguing that the Palestinians don't exist. We all acknowledge their existence.

4. No one is arguing that the Palestinians "arrived" after Israel's independence.


What we are arguing is:

1. The Jewish people have the right to re-constitute our national homeland on that territory. That right is based on the fact of our being indigenous to the territory, that we have had historical sovereignty over that territory, that we have a legal claim to that territory and we need a safe and secure homeland for all the world's Jewish people.

2. Those Jewish people living in the Diaspora have a right to return to our homeland. (We are not colonizers, foreigners or invaders).

3. The Palestinian people ALSO have a right to a homeland and the right to return to it. (With some of us arguing that this homeland is Jordan and some of us arguing that the Palestinians must be accommodated in two new States -- the four State solution).

4. That the two cultures can live in peace together, side-by-side both within the nations in question and as neighboring nations.


Now, let's go over the anti-Israel arguments:

1. Only the current inhabitants of a territory have rights to sovereignty.

2. Past inhabitants have no rights to the territory. Therefore, there is no right of return. (With some arguing that the Jewish people never lived in that territory -- an obvious falsehood).

3. Conquest, colonization and ethnic cleansing transfer rights from the indigenous inhabitants to the conquoring and colonizing culture.

4. That it is impossible for the Arab Muslim Palestinians to live with the Jewish people either in the same state or in a neighboring State.

Now, if the pro-Israel side adopted these arguments it would STILL demonstrate that the rights to Israel belong to the Jewish people. Its a lose/lose for the anti-Israel crowd.