The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?

[montelatici]

I use the system as it was intended to be used, rather than as a soap box for some personal grudge and although a healthy discussion is the essence of our time here I don't believe this area of the site was intended for over emotional profane laced outbursts directed against other members.

Basically the children have their space, separated from the adults, and you keep jumping the fence and throwing a tantrum.

You advocate destroying the lives of over a million and a half people; that's far more profane than the f-word.

And no, you do not use the system as it was intended; you use the "report button" as a weapon to get even with people that disagree with you and to silence their voice.

I've been blogging for 10 years over a dozen message boards with about 50,000 posts and I've never reported anyone, or put anyone on "Ignore". People are free to say whatever they want to say to me. I don't put up filters or try to control conversations to make them more palatable.

As for DNA I didn't say "there was more than DNA" what I said was that its very easy for a bias researcher to show all kinds of things with DNA including that our genome also has 99% in common with a chimp but I wouldn't drop a nation of chimps in the middle of Mecca simply because some fool insists their indigenous. Might want to brush up on your own debating skills there Koko.

Oh and that amateur historian, if I can be so cavalier with the term historian, you referenced. Really ? Is that the best you can do is now add "amateur" historians to your list of racists and wiki quotes. Again, its not I, that needs to brush up on debating skills.

Ad hominems are not valid rebuttals.

People who try to discredit the source, do so because they have no valid argument with which to rebut.

If you insist on discussing DNA evidence...

Since my last 2 posts focused on cultural similarities, I find your statement a little odd.

I'd suggest you first go check out "The Genetic Literacy Project" And then begin actually reading some studies, like

Jews Are a 'Race,' Genes Reveal

or

The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses

You might ( and thats a huge maybe ) then have the background to comprehend this one which I'm sure you'd ( instead of actually understanding it ) jump up and down and cry I win along with some litany of profane invectives.

You remember where I told you to stick that condescending arrogance?

Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes

However the essence of the argument about DNA isn't that there no similarities within a geological location, its that genetic similarities are somewhat irrelevant when it comes to tribal and cultural identities. No matter how you slice it, we know the Judaic culture developed in Judea and we know the Arabic culture developed on the Arabian Peninsula. So when it comes time to design a system of states that most fairly represents the native peoples of the area then it only stands to reason that we allow for a Judaic state within its ancestral boundaries. Just like we've allowed for Arabic states within their ancestral boundaries.

The Arabs have Syria and Jordan, Egypt as well as a host of others from the colonial period, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, the list is endless. So why not the Judaic people ?

You just like hearing yourself talk.

From there, the only argument you present is one of bigotry and racism.

Pointing out how similar the two groups are, is bigotry and racism?

Do you have dyslexia?

In which case you foam and spit and cry foul that the Judaic people exist at all.

And where did I say that?

If you really want to continue to insist that the pali's are so similar to the Israeli's according to the DNA then we must also agree that they are quite nearly identical to chimpanzees and we should be throwing Muslims out of Mecca to make way for a Chimpanzee state.

You must have ADD as well. Because my last 2 posts, did not include DNA evidence.

Best of luck with that ;--)

Cheers

I don't need luck.

Sorry Billy but there was really noting of substance to respond to, although I did find it entertaining.

If you need a reminder

The subject is indigenous people and what qualifications are required to be considered one.

Nothing you've said so far in any way supports the idea that there is either a distinct cultural group of Arab Muslims in Judea, or that even if there is one, they somehow didn't already get a few states to call their own in Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. All of which encompass the exact same area that is the most likely source of immigration of Arabs into Judea in the second Arab colonial wave which seems to have begun sometime after 1850 and contunued into the late Zionist period. See DNA evidence provided ;--)

If you recall we already went over why the UN had to redefine what a refugee was in order to assist these nationals as refugees even thought Jordan had at this time given them Jordanian citizenship.

The only colonists in Palestine are the European Zionists.

 

[theliq]

I use the system as it was intended to be used, rather than as a soap box for some personal grudge and although a healthy discussion is the essence of our time here I don't believe this area of the site was intended for over emotional profane laced outbursts directed against other members.

Basically the children have their space, separated from the adults, and you keep jumping the fence and throwing a tantrum.

You advocate destroying the lives of over a million and a half people; that's far more profane than the f-word.

And no, you do not use the system as it was intended; you use the "report button" as a weapon to get even with people that disagree with you and to silence their voice.

I've been blogging for 10 years over a dozen message boards with about 50,000 posts and I've never reported anyone, or put anyone on "Ignore". People are free to say whatever they want to say to me. I don't put up filters or try to control conversations to make them more palatable.

As for DNA I didn't say "there was more than DNA" what I said was that its very easy for a bias researcher to show all kinds of things with DNA including that our genome also has 99% in common with a chimp but I wouldn't drop a nation of chimps in the middle of Mecca simply because some fool insists their indigenous. Might want to brush up on your own debating skills there Koko.

Oh and that amateur historian, if I can be so cavalier with the term historian, you referenced. Really ? Is that the best you can do is now add "amateur" historians to your list of racists and wiki quotes. Again, its not I, that needs to brush up on debating skills.

Ad hominems are not valid rebuttals.

People who try to discredit the source, do so because they have no valid argument with which to rebut.

If you insist on discussing DNA evidence...

Since my last 2 posts focused on cultural similarities, I find your statement a little odd.

I'd suggest you first go check out "The Genetic Literacy Project" And then begin actually reading some studies, like

Jews Are a 'Race,' Genes Reveal

or

The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses

You might ( and thats a huge maybe ) then have the background to comprehend this one which I'm sure you'd ( instead of actually understanding it ) jump up and down and cry I win along with some litany of profane invectives.

You remember where I told you to stick that condescending arrogance?

Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes

However the essence of the argument about DNA isn't that there no similarities within a geological location, its that genetic similarities are somewhat irrelevant when it comes to tribal and cultural identities. No matter how you slice it, we know the Judaic culture developed in Judea and we know the Arabic culture developed on the Arabian Peninsula. So when it comes time to design a system of states that most fairly represents the native peoples of the area then it only stands to reason that we allow for a Judaic state within its ancestral boundaries. Just like we've allowed for Arabic states within their ancestral boundaries.

The Arabs have Syria and Jordan, Egypt as well as a host of others from the colonial period, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, the list is endless. So why not the Judaic people ?

You just like hearing yourself talk.

From there, the only argument you present is one of bigotry and racism.

Pointing out how similar the two groups are, is bigotry and racism?

Do you have dyslexia?

In which case you foam and spit and cry foul that the Judaic people exist at all.

And where did I say that?

If you really want to continue to insist that the pali's are so similar to the Israeli's according to the DNA then we must also agree that they are quite nearly identical to chimpanzees and we should be throwing Muslims out of Mecca to make way for a Chimpanzee state.

You must have ADD as well. Because my last 2 posts, did not include DNA evidence.

Best of luck with that ;--)

Cheers

I don't need luck.

Sorry Billy but there was really noting of substance to respond to, although I did find it entertaining.

If you need a reminder

The subject is indigenous people and what qualifications are required to be considered one.

Nothing you've said so far in any way supports the idea that there is either a distinct cultural group of Arab Muslims in Judea, or that even if there is one, they somehow didn't already get a few states to call their own in Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. All of which encompass the exact same area that is the most likely source of immigration of Arabs into Judea in the second Arab colonial wave which seems to have begun sometime after 1850 and contunued into the late Zionist period. See DNA evidence provided ;--)

If you recall we already went over why the UN had to redefine what a refugee was in order to assist these nationals as refugees even thought Jordan had at this time given them Jordanian citizenship.

You do realize that the Palestinians have been in Palestine longer than the Robber Jews in all their guises over the years.......

 

[Boston1]

I use the system as it was intended to be used, rather than as a soap box for some personal grudge and although a healthy discussion is the essence of our time here I don't believe this area of the site was intended for over emotional profane laced outbursts directed against other members.

Basically the children have their space, separated from the adults, and you keep jumping the fence and throwing a tantrum.

You advocate destroying the lives of over a million and a half people; that's far more profane than the f-word.

And no, you do not use the system as it was intended; you use the "report button" as a weapon to get even with people that disagree with you and to silence their voice.

I've been blogging for 10 years over a dozen message boards with about 50,000 posts and I've never reported anyone, or put anyone on "Ignore". People are free to say whatever they want to say to me. I don't put up filters or try to control conversations to make them more palatable.

As for DNA I didn't say "there was more than DNA" what I said was that its very easy for a bias researcher to show all kinds of things with DNA including that our genome also has 99% in common with a chimp but I wouldn't drop a nation of chimps in the middle of Mecca simply because some fool insists their indigenous. Might want to brush up on your own debating skills there Koko.

Oh and that amateur historian, if I can be so cavalier with the term historian, you referenced. Really ? Is that the best you can do is now add "amateur" historians to your list of racists and wiki quotes. Again, its not I, that needs to brush up on debating skills.

Ad hominems are not valid rebuttals.

People who try to discredit the source, do so because they have no valid argument with which to rebut.

If you insist on discussing DNA evidence...

Since my last 2 posts focused on cultural similarities, I find your statement a little odd.

I'd suggest you first go check out "The Genetic Literacy Project" And then begin actually reading some studies, like

Jews Are a 'Race,' Genes Reveal

or

The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses

You might ( and thats a huge maybe ) then have the background to comprehend this one which I'm sure you'd ( instead of actually understanding it ) jump up and down and cry I win along with some litany of profane invectives.

You remember where I told you to stick that condescending arrogance?

Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes

However the essence of the argument about DNA isn't that there no similarities within a geological location, its that genetic similarities are somewhat irrelevant when it comes to tribal and cultural identities. No matter how you slice it, we know the Judaic culture developed in Judea and we know the Arabic culture developed on the Arabian Peninsula. So when it comes time to design a system of states that most fairly represents the native peoples of the area then it only stands to reason that we allow for a Judaic state within its ancestral boundaries. Just like we've allowed for Arabic states within their ancestral boundaries.

The Arabs have Syria and Jordan, Egypt as well as a host of others from the colonial period, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, the list is endless. So why not the Judaic people ?

You just like hearing yourself talk.

From there, the only argument you present is one of bigotry and racism.

Pointing out how similar the two groups are, is bigotry and racism?

Do you have dyslexia?

In which case you foam and spit and cry foul that the Judaic people exist at all.

And where did I say that?

If you really want to continue to insist that the pali's are so similar to the Israeli's according to the DNA then we must also agree that they are quite nearly identical to chimpanzees and we should be throwing Muslims out of Mecca to make way for a Chimpanzee state.

You must have ADD as well. Because my last 2 posts, did not include DNA evidence.

Best of luck with that ;--)

Cheers

I don't need luck.

Sorry Billy but there was really noting of substance to respond to, although I did find it entertaining.

If you need a reminder

The subject is indigenous people and what qualifications are required to be considered one.

Nothing you've said so far in any way supports the idea that there is either a distinct cultural group of Arab Muslims in Judea, or that even if there is one, they somehow didn't already get a few states to call their own in Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. All of which encompass the exact same area that is the most likely source of immigration of Arabs into Judea in the second Arab colonial wave which seems to have begun sometime after 1850 and contunued into the late Zionist period. See DNA evidence provided ;--)

If you recall we already went over why the UN had to redefine what a refugee was in order to assist these nationals as refugees even thought Jordan had at this time given them Jordanian citizenship.

The only colonists in Palestine are the European Zionists.

Clearly you have not been reading along. On multiple levels the Arab Muslims can be shown to have immigrated into Israel in several waves. One in the 7th to 9th century CE and the other from about 1850 to the end of the late Zionist era.

Only about 35% of returnees came back to Judea from Europe and those precious genetic studies all you revisionists keep touting only show that the Judiac people actually are a race and have remained genetically isolated from the Europeans.

We should start keeping track, you've been told this how many times ?

In the end there is no doubt that the Judaic people originated in Judea and the Arab people originated on the Arabian Peninsula.

Its a no brainer unless you are experiencing some form of cognitive dissonance in which case you're going to tend to deny the facts in favor of whatever emotionally invested fallacies

 

[Shusha]

You do realize that the Palestinians have been in Palestine longer than the Robber Jews in all their guises over the years.......

Um. You do realize that the Jewish people have lived continuously in ISRAEL for 3000+years, yes?

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

theliq Indeependent The topic of this thread is the Palestinians, not the two of you

 

[P F Tinmore]

You do realize that the Palestinians have been in Palestine longer than the Robber Jews in all their guises over the years.......

Um. You do realize that the Jewish people have lived continuously in ISRAEL for 3000+years, yes?

And nobody else?

 

[Phoenall]

This isn't hard work, Coyote, its actually already done, basic history is about all it is. There simply is no distinct palestinian culture, its virtually indistinguishable from Arab Muslim culture as a whole.

Even if someone wants to concede the issue its irrelevant as the Arab Muslims have more than fair representation in multiple states of the region. No reason at all the Judaic people shouldn't also be represented.

I think you and I will have to agree to disagree there. The Judaic people ARE represented, by a Jewish state.

And if the muslims had won in 1948/1949, or at any point after that the Jews would now be extinct in that part of the world. So who would have represented them then ? ? ?

 

[Phoenall]

This isn't hard work, Coyote, its actually already done, basic history is about all it is. There simply is no distinct palestinian culture, its virtually indistinguishable from Arab Muslim culture as a whole.

Even if someone wants to concede the issue its irrelevant as the Arab Muslims have more than fair representation in multiple states of the region. No reason at all the Judaic people shouldn't also be represented.

Palestinian culture (and history) is specific to the Palestinians. Trying to claim that Palestinian culture is indistinguishable from the general Arab Muslim culture, firstly this ignores the fact that denies that within the Palestinian population world-wide, diaspora included 35% are Christian, not just Muslim. And, like Muslim Palestinians would like to have an ancestral homeland and possibly return to their ancestral homeland. Palestine is not the ancestral homeland of European Zionists.



Secondly, your contention is so idiotic that if applied to any other people, e.g. the Hispanic people, you would deny that there is any difference culturally between a Colombian and an Argentine.

Using pre 2000 data again as the population of Palestinians Christians is now just 1% down from 10% in 2007.

 

[Phoenall]

The Palestinian people have no state, they are underrepresented. Palestinians follow different religions, not just Islam. Can't you get that through your thick skull.

So who does the UN and most UN nations recognise then, the Palestinian child sex groups, or is it the Palestinian nation invented in 1988.

 

[Phoenall]

You do realize that the Palestinians have been in Palestine longer than the Robber Jews in all their guises over the years.......

Um. You do realize that the Jewish people have lived continuously in ISRAEL for 3000+years, yes?

And nobody else?

Well Christians haven't for starters as they did not exist until 70 C.E. or thereabouts. The muslims didn't until 635 C.E. when they were invented. So who does that leave the Inuit, the Polynesians, First Nations, Inca or is that just showing how silly your reply is.

 

[Phoenall]

I think you and I will have to agree to disagree there. The Judaic people ARE represented, by a Jewish state.

Yes, but the gist of this thread, and indeed the foundational ideology of the entire conflict is that the Jewish people have no rights to self-determination and self-rule and that the Jewish National Home should be dismantled.. The arguments made here by myself and Boston are primarily to counter that line of thinking, both because it is the morally correct thing to do and because its the only way to peace.

See, I'm not seeing it that way....I see the arguments about indiginous-ity as a means to disenfranchise one or the other side, and I see it just as strongly played out by the pro-Israeli side seeking make Palestinians "non-People" with every rhetorical tool available: they are an invented people, they don't have a unique (enough) culture, they didn't exist before a certain date, they are squatters, they are colonists, they should be sent to some other country - the propoganda on that is relentness. How can you not see that? If arguments need to be countered - surely, they should be countered on both sides.

Boston is also trying to point out that the Palestinian people also already have representation and self-rule in Palestine -- Jordan. They already have a State. Boston is not wrong on that. He is absolutely correct. What they want now is at least one (realistically now two) more States. Part of the reason they want those two more States, not the entire reason, but part, is to accomplish the goal described above -- to dismantle the Jewish National Home.

However, I add that, regardless of their origins and the length of time they have existed as a distinct people, the West Bank and Gaza Palestinians are one now and because of that must be addressed. The only question is how to address them. I don't think Boston (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) objects to self-determination for a Palestinian people -- he just doesn't think it should be carved out of Israel.

If you mean by dismanteling Israel - I agree.

However, Israel took for itself the territory the Palestinians live on and has held it under occupation - utilizing that territory to create their state is not carving it out of Israel.

But it has not taken it, and those that say they have are the ones trying to dismantle Israel. The land was Jewish in law, and that can not be disputed by anyone. The evidence was the Jordanian enacting of a law to relieve the Jews of ownership of the lands that Jordan occupied in 1949 and turning it over to Palestinian ownership. The Oslo accords turned back the pages of history and allowed the Jews who owned land in the west bank to reclaim it and make it theirs again. So get your facts right and stop posting from the Jew hatred anti semitic islamonazi POV

 

[Phoenall]

This isn't hard work, Coyote, its actually already done, basic history is about all it is. There simply is no distinct palestinian culture, its virtually indistinguishable from Arab Muslim culture as a whole.

Even if someone wants to concede the issue its irrelevant as the Arab Muslims have more than fair representation in multiple states of the region. No reason at all the Judaic people shouldn't also be represented.

I think you and I will have to agree to disagree there. The Judaic people ARE represented, by a Jewish state.

They are now, and they should be, its the ONLY Jewish state. The Arabs on the other hand have something like 49 states, I'd have to go count them up but if anything the Arab Muslims are over represented, and the Judaic people, under.

States aren't allocated on the basis of religion or ethnicity on a tit for tat basis. How many states do Europeans have? They have 51. Don't you think we should give some of them to the Jews since they have double the number of states the Arabs do?

Arabs have 22 states: List of Arab countries by population - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Which European states have religious, cultural and racial ties to the Jewish people, when you find one then please let the world know. Then let the world know what ties muslims have to Jerusalem other that dar al islam and conquest

 

[Phoenall]

I think you and I will have to agree to disagree there. The Judaic people ARE represented, by a Jewish state.

Yes, but the gist of this thread, and indeed the foundational ideology of the entire conflict is that the Jewish people have no rights to self-determination and self-rule and that the Jewish National Home should be dismantled.. The arguments made here by myself and Boston are primarily to counter that line of thinking, both because it is the morally correct thing to do and because its the only way to peace.

See, I'm not seeing it that way....I see the arguments about indiginous-ity as a means to disenfranchise one or the other side, and I see it just as strongly played out by the pro-Israeli side seeking make Palestinians "non-People" with every rhetorical tool available: they are an invented people, they don't have a unique (enough) culture, they didn't exist before a certain date, they are squatters, they are colonists, they should be sent to some other country - the propoganda on that is relentness. How can you not see that? If arguments need to be countered - surely, they should be countered on both sides.

Boston is also trying to point out that the Palestinian people also already have representation and self-rule in Palestine -- Jordan. They already have a State. Boston is not wrong on that. He is absolutely correct. What they want now is at least one (realistically now two) more States. Part of the reason they want those two more States, not the entire reason, but part, is to accomplish the goal described above -- to dismantle the Jewish National Home.

However, I add that, regardless of their origins and the length of time they have existed as a distinct people, the West Bank and Gaza Palestinians are one now and because of that must be addressed. The only question is how to address them. I don't think Boston (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) objects to self-determination for a Palestinian people -- he just doesn't think it should be carved out of Israel.

If you mean by dismanteling Israel - I agree.

However, Israel took for itself the territory the Palestinians live on and has held it under occupation - utilizing that territory to create their state is not carving it out of Israel.

I think the confusion is that you assume the palestinians as Arafat named them in 67 are a distinct people that can be disenfranchised. I don't think they are. I see Arab Muslims trying yet again to take more Israeli land by pretending there is a disenfranchised people, selling the PR to the world. Really it doesn't take much of a background in history to realize its all just hype.

Even if the Arab Muslims of Jordan are a distinct people they already have a state in Jordan, I think I've managed to make that clear. And its all of about 100' from Israel. In which case a strong argument cam be made that IF and thats a huge IF these people are in any way indigenous ( and we know they're not because Arab Muslims expanded from the Arabian Peninsula in about the 7th to 9th century CE ) they already have at least one state.

They also already have another state or soon to be state in Gaza. Anytime they take the time from bombing and building tunnels to kidnap Israeli's and actually declare statehood. And there is absolutely no reason they can't as of this very instant.

The fundamental problem is racism and bigotry, and the hatred fomented by the Arab leagues greed. The Arab Muslims simply want it all and if they can't take it militarily they are going to try and take at least as much as they can through the PR war.

To which I say NOT ANOTHER INCH

The Arab Muslims can satisfy themselves with the 99% of the middle east they did get and quit whining about that last 1%.

The Palestinians, Christians and Muslims want their ancestral homeland back. The land the Palestinian people Christian and Muslim had lived on for several millennia was colonized by European Zionists. The fact that some of the Christian Palestinians converted to Islam does not change anything. By the way, the Palestinian people declared themselves as such long before 1967. Stop your usual Zionist propagandizing. All your propaganda and revisionism was debunked long ago by source documents.

PALESTINE.

CORRESPONDENCE
WITH THE
PALESTINE ARAB DELEGATION
AND THE
ZIONIST ORGANISATION.

Presented to Parliament by Command of His Majesty.
JUNE, 1922.
LONDON:
​

• 
  "............We would, therefore, submit the following observations:—

Whilst the position in Palestine is, as it stands to-day, with the British Government holding authority by an occupying force, and using that authority to impose upon the people against their wishes a great immigration of alien Jews, many of them of a Bolshevik revolutionary type, no constitution which would fall short of giving the People of Palestine full control of their own affairs could be acceptable.
If the British Government would revise their present policy in Palestine, end the Zionist con-dominium, put a stop to all alien immigration and grant the People of Palestine — who by Right and Experience are the best judges of what is good and bad to their country — Executive and Legislative powers, the terms of a constitution could be discussed in a different atmosphere. If to-day the People of Palestine assented to any constitution which fell short of giving them full control of their own affairs they would be in the position of agreeing to an instrument of Government which might, and probably would, be used to smother their national life under a flood of alien immigration....."

UK correspondence with Palestine Arab Delegation and Zionist Organization/British policy in Palestine: "Churchill White Paper" - UK documentation Cmd. 1700/Non-UN document (excerpts) (1 July 1922)

And then the same arabs decided because they would not get one inch of Jewish land to deny the Mandadte and refuse to have anything to do with the outcome. So they only have themselves to blame for the problems they face today.
They want full control of the world and you are supporting those demands making you a traitor to your adopted country.

 

[Billo_Really]

Sorry Billy but there was really noting of substance to respond to, although I did find it entertaining.

If you need a reminder

The subject is indigenous people and what qualifications are required to be considered one.

Nothing you've said so far in any way supports the idea that there is either a distinct cultural group of Arab Muslims in Judea, or that even if there is one, they somehow didn't already get a few states to call their own in Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. All of which encompass the exact same area that is the most likely source of immigration of Arabs into Judea in the second Arab colonial wave which seems to have begun sometime after 1850 and contunued into the late Zionist period. See DNA evidence provided ;--)

If you recall we already went over why the UN had to redefine what a refugee was in order to assist these nationals as refugees even thought Jordan had at this time given them Jordanian citizenship.

One way you can spot a troll, is they don't specifically address the points of an opposing post. That fits you like a glove.

I gave you an entire list of cultural similarities proving the Pals are indigenous to the area and to date, you haven't addressed a single one.

Personal attacks, bullshit innuendo's and strawman arguments, are all you got.

 

[Phoenall]

I think you and I will have to agree to disagree there. The Judaic people ARE represented, by a Jewish state.

Yes, but the gist of this thread, and indeed the foundational ideology of the entire conflict is that the Jewish people have no rights to self-determination and self-rule and that the Jewish National Home should be dismantled.. The arguments made here by myself and Boston are primarily to counter that line of thinking, both because it is the morally correct thing to do and because its the only way to peace.

See, I'm not seeing it that way....I see the arguments about indiginous-ity as a means to disenfranchise one or the other side, and I see it just as strongly played out by the pro-Israeli side seeking make Palestinians "non-People" with every rhetorical tool available: they are an invented people, they don't have a unique (enough) culture, they didn't exist before a certain date, they are squatters, they are colonists, they should be sent to some other country - the propoganda on that is relentness. How can you not see that? If arguments need to be countered - surely, they should be countered on both sides.

Boston is also trying to point out that the Palestinian people also already have representation and self-rule in Palestine -- Jordan. They already have a State. Boston is not wrong on that. He is absolutely correct. What they want now is at least one (realistically now two) more States. Part of the reason they want those two more States, not the entire reason, but part, is to accomplish the goal described above -- to dismantle the Jewish National Home.

However, I add that, regardless of their origins and the length of time they have existed as a distinct people, the West Bank and Gaza Palestinians are one now and because of that must be addressed. The only question is how to address them. I don't think Boston (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) objects to self-determination for a Palestinian people -- he just doesn't think it should be carved out of Israel.

If you mean by dismanteling Israel - I agree.

However, Israel took for itself the territory the Palestinians live on and has held it under occupation - utilizing that territory to create their state is not carving it out of Israel.

I think the confusion is that you assume the palestinians as Arafat named them in 67 are a distinct people that can be disenfranchised. I don't think they are. I see Arab Muslims trying yet again to take more Israeli land by pretending there is a disenfranchised people, selling the PR to the world. Really it doesn't take much of a background in history to realize its all just hype.

Even if the Arab Muslims of Jordan are a distinct people they already have a state in Jordan, I think I've managed to make that clear. And its all of about 100' from Israel. In which case a strong argument cam be made that IF and thats a huge IF these people are in any way indigenous ( and we know they're not because Arab Muslims expanded from the Arabian Peninsula in about the 7th to 9th century CE ) they already have at least one state.

They also already have another state or soon to be state in Gaza. Anytime they take the time from bombing and building tunnels to kidnap Israeli's and actually declare statehood. And there is absolutely no reason they can't as of this very instant.

The fundamental problem is racism and bigotry, and the hatred fomented by the Arab leagues greed. The Arab Muslims simply want it all and if they can't take it militarily they are going to try and take at least as much as they can through the PR war.

To which I say NOT ANOTHER INCH

The Arab Muslims can satisfy themselves with the 99% of the middle east they did get and quit whining about that last 1%.

The Palestinians, Christians and Muslims want their ancestral homeland back. The land the Palestinian people Christian and Muslim had lived on for several millennia was colonized by European Zionists. The fact that some of the Christian Palestinians converted to Islam does not change anything. By the way, the Palestinian people declared themselves as such long before 1967. Stop your usual Zionist propagandizing. All your propaganda and revisionism was debunked long ago by source documents.

PALESTINE.

CORRESPONDENCE
WITH THE
PALESTINE ARAB DELEGATION
AND THE
ZIONIST ORGANISATION.

Presented to Parliament by Command of His Majesty.
JUNE, 1922.
LONDON:
​

• 
  "............We would, therefore, submit the following observations:—

Whilst the position in Palestine is, as it stands to-day, with the British Government holding authority by an occupying force, and using that authority to impose upon the people against their wishes a great immigration of alien Jews, many of them of a Bolshevik revolutionary type, no constitution which would fall short of giving the People of Palestine full control of their own affairs could be acceptable.
If the British Government would revise their present policy in Palestine, end the Zionist con-dominium, put a stop to all alien immigration and grant the People of Palestine — who by Right and Experience are the best judges of what is good and bad to their country — Executive and Legislative powers, the terms of a constitution could be discussed in a different atmosphere. If to-day the People of Palestine assented to any constitution which fell short of giving them full control of their own affairs they would be in the position of agreeing to an instrument of Government which might, and probably would, be used to smother their national life under a flood of alien immigration....."

UK correspondence with Palestine Arab Delegation and Zionist Organization/British policy in Palestine: "Churchill White Paper" - UK documentation Cmd. 1700/Non-UN document (excerpts) (1 July 1922)

The Palestinians are Palestinians by treaty, by international law, and domestic law.

This whole thread is for Zionists to blow smoke on the issue.

Then produce the treaties, international laws and domestic laws that say so. They must clearly state the formation of a Palestinian state for the arab muslims. They must not say the Mandate of Palestine as that is not a state.


How do you like that smoke that destroys your reply before you even make it.

 

[Billo_Really]

Clearly you have not been reading along. On multiple levels the Arab Muslims can be shown to have immigrated into Israel in several waves. One in the 7th to 9th century CE and the other from about 1850 to the end of the late Zionist era.

Only about 35% of returnees came back to Judea from Europe and those precious genetic studies all you revisionists keep touting only show that the Judiac people actually are a race and have remained genetically isolated from the Europeans.

We should start keeping track, you've been told this how many times ?

In the end there is no doubt that the Judaic people originated in Judea and the Arab people originated on the Arabian Peninsula.

Its a no brainer unless you are experiencing some form of cognitive dissonance in which case you're going to tend to deny the facts in favor of whatever emotionally invested fallacies

And virtually all of the Zionist population migrated into the area at the turn of the last century.

 

[Phoenall]

I use the system as it was intended to be used, rather than as a soap box for some personal grudge and although a healthy discussion is the essence of our time here I don't believe this area of the site was intended for over emotional profane laced outbursts directed against other members.

Basically the children have their space, separated from the adults, and you keep jumping the fence and throwing a tantrum.

You advocate destroying the lives of over a million and a half people; that's far more profane than the f-word.

And no, you do not use the system as it was intended; you use the "report button" as a weapon to get even with people that disagree with you and to silence their voice.

I've been blogging for 10 years over a dozen message boards with about 50,000 posts and I've never reported anyone, or put anyone on "Ignore". People are free to say whatever they want to say to me. I don't put up filters or try to control conversations to make them more palatable.

As for DNA I didn't say "there was more than DNA" what I said was that its very easy for a bias researcher to show all kinds of things with DNA including that our genome also has 99% in common with a chimp but I wouldn't drop a nation of chimps in the middle of Mecca simply because some fool insists their indigenous. Might want to brush up on your own debating skills there Koko.

Oh and that amateur historian, if I can be so cavalier with the term historian, you referenced. Really ? Is that the best you can do is now add "amateur" historians to your list of racists and wiki quotes. Again, its not I, that needs to brush up on debating skills.

Ad hominems are not valid rebuttals.

People who try to discredit the source, do so because they have no valid argument with which to rebut.

If you insist on discussing DNA evidence...

Since my last 2 posts focused on cultural similarities, I find your statement a little odd.

I'd suggest you first go check out "The Genetic Literacy Project" And then begin actually reading some studies, like

Jews Are a 'Race,' Genes Reveal

or

The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses

You might ( and thats a huge maybe ) then have the background to comprehend this one which I'm sure you'd ( instead of actually understanding it ) jump up and down and cry I win along with some litany of profane invectives.

You remember where I told you to stick that condescending arrogance?

Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes

However the essence of the argument about DNA isn't that there no similarities within a geological location, its that genetic similarities are somewhat irrelevant when it comes to tribal and cultural identities. No matter how you slice it, we know the Judaic culture developed in Judea and we know the Arabic culture developed on the Arabian Peninsula. So when it comes time to design a system of states that most fairly represents the native peoples of the area then it only stands to reason that we allow for a Judaic state within its ancestral boundaries. Just like we've allowed for Arabic states within their ancestral boundaries.

The Arabs have Syria and Jordan, Egypt as well as a host of others from the colonial period, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, the list is endless. So why not the Judaic people ?

You just like hearing yourself talk.

From there, the only argument you present is one of bigotry and racism.

Pointing out how similar the two groups are, is bigotry and racism?

Do you have dyslexia?

In which case you foam and spit and cry foul that the Judaic people exist at all.

And where did I say that?

If you really want to continue to insist that the pali's are so similar to the Israeli's according to the DNA then we must also agree that they are quite nearly identical to chimpanzees and we should be throwing Muslims out of Mecca to make way for a Chimpanzee state.

You must have ADD as well. Because my last 2 posts, did not include DNA evidence.

Best of luck with that ;--)

Cheers

I don't need luck.

Where has that been stated then, other by you to deflect away from the reality.

What evidence do you have to substantiate this claim then, apart from your own paranoia ?

BULLSHIT

Showing that you are using non expert testimony because it supports your POV is a valid rebuttal. If the source is proven to be wrong or malicious then that is also a valid rebuttal. This is frowned on in law if the person using such evidence does so knowing the evidence to be flawed. You know this evidence is flawed so you used the only get out you have and fail to get anywhere with it.

Ever thought that the cultures could have been stolen by the arab muslims to begin with, as they had no culture of their own to begin with. Just as they stole everything else from architecture, dress, religion and society.

So because you have no answer to the most telling point that destroys your whole POV you resort to immature name calling.

It is when it is based on flawed evidence, like nearly all of your input to this board is.

When you have said that the Jews should be wiped out as they have no legal right to exist

What you mean is they did not contain any evidence at all

You do the way you are going as skill is a failure on your part.

 

[Phoenall]

Sorry Billy but there was really noting of substance to respond to, although I did find it entertaining.

If you need a reminder

The subject is indigenous people and what qualifications are required to be considered one.

Nothing you've said so far in any way supports the idea that there is either a distinct cultural group of Arab Muslims in Judea, or that even if there is one, they somehow didn't already get a few states to call their own in Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. All of which encompass the exact same area that is the most likely source of immigration of Arabs into Judea in the second Arab colonial wave which seems to have begun sometime after 1850 and contunued into the late Zionist period. See DNA evidence provided ;--)

If you recall we already went over why the UN had to redefine what a refugee was in order to assist these nationals as refugees even thought Jordan had at this time given them Jordanian citizenship.

One way you can spot a troll, is they don't specifically address the points of an opposing post. That fits you like a glove.

I gave you an entire list of cultural similarities proving the Pals are indigenous to the area and to date, you haven't addressed a single one.

Personal attacks, bullshit innuendo's and strawman arguments, are all you got.

Hello troll is it nice being hung by your own petard

And how does those cultural traits prove anything as they can be stolen for use by anyone

And what do you have other than flawed evidence, doctored videos and outright lies

 

[Phoenall]

Clearly you have not been reading along. On multiple levels the Arab Muslims can be shown to have immigrated into Israel in several waves. One in the 7th to 9th century CE and the other from about 1850 to the end of the late Zionist era.

Only about 35% of returnees came back to Judea from Europe and those precious genetic studies all you revisionists keep touting only show that the Judiac people actually are a race and have remained genetically isolated from the Europeans.

We should start keeping track, you've been told this how many times ?

In the end there is no doubt that the Judaic people originated in Judea and the Arab people originated on the Arabian Peninsula.

Its a no brainer unless you are experiencing some form of cognitive dissonance in which case you're going to tend to deny the facts in favor of whatever emotionally invested fallacies

And virtually all of the Zionist population migrated into the area at the turn of the last century.

Another LIE, or is it another faked source as the Zionists were still living in America, Europe and the M.E. to the present day. Only about 10% of the migrants were Zionists, and all Jews were invited by the LoN under the terms of the Mandate

 

[Challenger]

On multiple levels the Arab Muslims can be shown to have immigrated into Israel in several waves.

Care to show me?