The Nuking of Nagasaki: Even More Immoral and Unnecessary than Hiroshima

[Rigby5]

They didn't drop it on Tokyo.

They did not drop an atomic bomb on Tokyo because very little of Tokyo was left, and it would have been wasted.

 

[Rigby5]

No such war crime.



America didn't commit atrocities.



That would be murder.

The US committed dozens of atrocities and war crimes.
Do you realize it was a war crime for US subs and mines to blow up and since civilian food freighters?

 

[Rigby5]

You have also not backed up your claims about Japan being willing to surrender before the atomic bombs were dropped.

This has been verified by dozens of sources.
The atomic bombs killed fewer than conventional firestorm attacks.
In case anyone does not know Bruce Campbell, he is about the best known military historian.

Japan Tried To Surrender After Midway Defeat

rense.com

{...
Japan Tried To Surrender
After Midway Defeat
By J Bruce Campbell
jb_campbell@yahoo.com
8-2-6

Dear Gary, Your essay reveals that the Japanese were attempting to surrender before the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs were dropped on unsuspecting civilians. However ... it was much worse than that. The US Strategic Bombing Survey reveals that the Japanese began peace feelers shortly after their defeat at Midway in April, '42. The Japanese figured they had 16 months from Pearl Harbor to beat the US, without one setback. Midway was the setback that guaranteed their eventual surrender. George Marshall, Roosevelt's army chief of staff, would not hear of any peace attempts. As we now can see, the whole purpose of Pearl Harbor, from the Roosevelt POV, was to get us into a war with Germany. A secondary purpose was to install Mao Tse-tung in China, which demanded the annihilation of the Japanese and the selling out of Chiang Kai-shek. We can see now the idea behind the Communization of China - the transfer of US jobs to Chinese slavers. Peace feelers continued through '42, '43 and '44, when the blood was really flowing in the Pacific. They tried through the Soviets, the British and the Siamese. Marshall would not consider anything but Unconditional Surrender, knowing the Japanese would not give up Hirohito to the hangman, which didn't happen anyway. But this was always threatened, deliberately driving the Japanese to desperate acts to protect their god-leader. All well understood by the psychiatrists in FDR's gang. Even after Okinawa, Marshall said the desperate attempts at surrender were "premature." Going through the list of terrible battles in the Pacific while the Japanese were frantically attempting to end the war is mind-numbing. Marshall was taking his orders from Harry Hopkins, who has been revealed as Stalin's most important agent in the US. Stalin never declared war on the Japanese and wanted the fighting to continue so that he could occupy Manchuria when he was ready, and when the Japanese were no longer able to resist. He didn't declare war on Japan until the Hiroshima bomb was dropped. Marshall still wouldn't accept surrender until the second bomb was dropped on Nagasaki. The anticipated effects of atom bombing were too interesting to forego. Meanwhile, Hopkins had arranged for the transfer of the atom bomb plans and an entire bomb-manufacturing industry from Oak Ridge to Moscow via the airlift command at Great Falls, Montana (see Major George Racey Jordan's Diaries). ...}

 

[Vegasgiants]

Liar.

Yes you are

 

[Vegasgiants]

This has been verified by dozens of sources.
The atomic bombs killed fewer than conventional firestorm attacks.
In case anyone does not know Bruce Campbell, he is about the best known military historian.

Japan Tried To Surrender After Midway Defeat

rense.com

{...
Japan Tried To Surrender
After Midway Defeat
By J Bruce Campbell
jb_campbell@yahoo.com
8-2-6

Dear Gary, Your essay reveals that the Japanese were attempting to surrender before the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs were dropped on unsuspecting civilians. However ... it was much worse than that. The US Strategic Bombing Survey reveals that the Japanese began peace feelers shortly after their defeat at Midway in April, '42. The Japanese figured they had 16 months from Pearl Harbor to beat the US, without one setback. Midway was the setback that guaranteed their eventual surrender. George Marshall, Roosevelt's army chief of staff, would not hear of any peace attempts. As we now can see, the whole purpose of Pearl Harbor, from the Roosevelt POV, was to get us into a war with Germany. A secondary purpose was to install Mao Tse-tung in China, which demanded the annihilation of the Japanese and the selling out of Chiang Kai-shek. We can see now the idea behind the Communization of China - the transfer of US jobs to Chinese slavers. Peace feelers continued through '42, '43 and '44, when the blood was really flowing in the Pacific. They tried through the Soviets, the British and the Siamese. Marshall would not consider anything but Unconditional Surrender, knowing the Japanese would not give up Hirohito to the hangman, which didn't happen anyway. But this was always threatened, deliberately driving the Japanese to desperate acts to protect their god-leader. All well understood by the psychiatrists in FDR's gang. Even after Okinawa, Marshall said the desperate attempts at surrender were "premature." Going through the list of terrible battles in the Pacific while the Japanese were frantically attempting to end the war is mind-numbing. Marshall was taking his orders from Harry Hopkins, who has been revealed as Stalin's most important agent in the US. Stalin never declared war on the Japanese and wanted the fighting to continue so that he could occupy Manchuria when he was ready, and when the Japanese were no longer able to resist. He didn't declare war on Japan until the Hiroshima bomb was dropped. Marshall still wouldn't accept surrender until the second bomb was dropped on Nagasaki. The anticipated effects of atom bombing were too interesting to forego. Meanwhile, Hopkins had arranged for the transfer of the atom bomb plans and an entire bomb-manufacturing industry from Oak Ridge to Moscow via the airlift command at Great Falls, Montana (see Major George Racey Jordan's Diaries). ...}

Yes japan was desperate to surrender. All the us military generals knew the war was over


They just wanted one condition

 

[Vegasgiants]

Wrong.
Japan had no more planes, ships, fuel, pilots, food, steel, coal, etc.
Their islands had turned into prison camps they could no longer escape from.
They were dying by the tens of thousands.
Anyone claiming we ever had to invade, is just lying.

No general or admiral thought we needed to invade by august

 

[Esdraelon]

We did NOT target anything remotely military, but instead the very center of the population.

That's a lie. It seems you play pretty fast and loose with your terminology. There were a couple of military facilities in Hiroshima. What does that designation require for you to accept it? Must there be a base with thousands of soldiers? THERE WAS.
It's true that there were more civilians killed than soldiers but that is only because by that time the lines had been blurred that designated the difference. The home population was training to meet invasion on the beaches. With SHARPENED STICKS.

The Japanese in Hiroshima suffered LESS than those in Tokyo, just two months prior. You revisionists make me ill.

 

[Vegasgiants]

That's a lie. It seems you play pretty fast and loose with your terminology. There were a couple of military facilities in Hiroshima. What does that designation require for you to accept it? Must there be a base with thousands of soldiers? THERE WAS.
It's true that there were more civilians killed than soldiers but that is only because by that time the lines had been blurred that designated the difference. The home population was training to meet invasion on the beaches. With SHARPENED STICKS.

The Japanese in Hiroshima suffered LESS than those in Tokyo, just two months prior. You revisionists make me ill.

They did not need to suffer at all

 

[Open Bolt]

Wrong.
Japan had no more planes, ships, fuel, pilots, food, steel, coal, etc.

Japan had two million soldiers and ten thousand kamikazes waiting to pounce on our invasion.

Their islands had turned into prison camps they could no longer escape from.
They were dying by the tens of thousands.
Anyone claiming we ever had to invade, is just lying.

We were going to invade if Japan had kept refusing to surrender.

When no one gets the truth the first time around, you have to repeat yourself.

Nothing that Unkotare says is true. He lies about history, and he lies about other posters.

The US committed dozens of atrocities and war crimes.

No we didn't.

Do you realize it was a war crime for US subs and mines to blow up and since civilian food freighters?

I tend to not realize things that are not true, and that claim is not even remotely true.

This has been verified by dozens of sources.

No it hasn't.

Nor will it be, since it isn't true.

The atomic bombs killed fewer than conventional firestorm attacks.

So what?

Japan Tried To Surrender After Midway Defeat

rense.com

{...
Japan Tried To Surrender
After Midway Defeat
By J Bruce Campbell
8-2-6

Dear Gary, Your essay reveals that the Japanese were attempting to surrender before the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs were dropped on unsuspecting civilians. However ... it was much worse than that. The US Strategic Bombing Survey reveals that the Japanese began peace feelers shortly after their defeat at Midway in April, '42. The Japanese figured they had 16 months from Pearl Harbor to beat the US, without one setback. Midway was the setback that guaranteed their eventual surrender. George Marshall, Roosevelt's army chief of staff, would not hear of any peace attempts. As we now can see, the whole purpose of Pearl Harbor, from the Roosevelt POV, was to get us into a war with Germany. A secondary purpose was to install Mao Tse-tung in China, which demanded the annihilation of the Japanese and the selling out of Chiang Kai-shek. We can see now the idea behind the Communization of China - the transfer of US jobs to Chinese slavers. Peace feelers continued through '42, '43 and '44, when the blood was really flowing in the Pacific. They tried through the Soviets, the British and the Siamese. Marshall would not consider anything but Unconditional Surrender, knowing the Japanese would not give up Hirohito to the hangman, which didn't happen anyway. But this was always threatened, deliberately driving the Japanese to desperate acts to protect their god-leader. All well understood by the psychiatrists in FDR's gang. Even after Okinawa, Marshall said the desperate attempts at surrender were "premature." Going through the list of terrible battles in the Pacific while the Japanese were frantically attempting to end the war is mind-numbing. Marshall was taking his orders from Harry Hopkins, who has been revealed as Stalin's most important agent in the US. Stalin never declared war on the Japanese and wanted the fighting to continue so that he could occupy Manchuria when he was ready, and when the Japanese were no longer able to resist. He didn't declare war on Japan until the Hiroshima bomb was dropped. Marshall still wouldn't accept surrender until the second bomb was dropped on Nagasaki. The anticipated effects of atom bombing were too interesting to forego. Meanwhile, Hopkins had arranged for the transfer of the atom bomb plans and an entire bomb-manufacturing industry from Oak Ridge to Moscow via the airlift command at Great Falls, Montana (see Major George Racey Jordan's Diaries). ...}

Fake news. Never happened.

 

[Open Bolt]

Yes you are

Wrong again. You and Unkotare are the only liars here.

Yes japan was desperate to surrender.

Wrong again. Japan refused to surrender for as long as they had hopes that the Soviets might help them escape the war in a draw (like the Korean War later ended).

It was only after the Soviet war declaration dashed their hopes of ending the war in a draw that Hirohito was willing to contemplate surrender.

All the us military generals knew the war was over

None of them said anything like that to Truman.

Perhaps you should be criticizing those admirals and generals for not telling Truman that the war was over.

They just wanted one condition

Wrong again. Japan refused to surrender for as long as they had hopes that the Soviets might help them escape the war in a draw (like the Korean War later ended).

It was only after the Soviet war declaration dashed their hopes of ending the war in a draw that Hirohito was willing to contemplate surrender.

No general or admiral thought we needed to invade by august

I bet MacArthur did.

Regardless, no general or admiral ever advised Truman against dropping the atomic bombs.

They did not need to suffer at all

Japan was the one who chose to wait until they were nuked twice before surrendering.

But, for sake of the entire human race, yes, Hiroshima did have to suffer.

 

[Vegasgiants]

Wrong again. You and Unkotare are the only liars here.



Wrong again. Japan refused to surrender for as long as they had hopes that the Soviets might help them escape the war in a draw (like the Korean War later ended).

It was only after the Soviet war declaration dashed their hopes of ending the war in a draw that Hirohito was willing to contemplate surrender.



None of them said anything like that to Truman.

Perhaps you should be criticizing those admirals and generals for not telling Truman that the war was over.



Wrong again. Japan refused to surrender for as long as they had hopes that the Soviets might help them escape the war in a draw (like the Korean War later ended).

It was only after the Soviet war declaration dashed their hopes of ending the war in a draw that Hirohito was willing to contemplate surrender.



I bet MacArthur did.

Regardless, no general or admiral ever advised Truman against dropping the atomic bombs.



Japan was the one who chose to wait until they were nuked twice before surrendering.

But, for sake of the entire human race, yes, Hiroshima did have to suffer.

Ok. You have nothing but insult


Dismissed

 

[Vegasgiants]

Wrong again. You and Unkotare are the only liars here.



Wrong again. Japan refused to surrender for as long as they had hopes that the Soviets might help them escape the war in a draw (like the Korean War later ended).

It was only after the Soviet war declaration dashed their hopes of ending the war in a draw that Hirohito was willing to contemplate surrender.



None of them said anything like that to Truman.

Perhaps you should be criticizing those admirals and generals for not telling Truman that the war was over.



Wrong again. Japan refused to surrender for as long as they had hopes that the Soviets might help them escape the war in a draw (like the Korean War later ended).

It was only after the Soviet war declaration dashed their hopes of ending the war in a draw that Hirohito was willing to contemplate surrender.



I bet MacArthur did.

Regardless, no general or admiral ever advised Truman against dropping the atomic bombs.



Japan was the one who chose to wait until they were nuked twice before surrendering.

But, for sake of the entire human race, yes, Hiroshima did have to suffer.

Woukd you like to bet on MacArthur?


Bet me

 

[Open Bolt]

Ok. You have nothing but insult

Wrong again. It is you and Unkotare who rely on insults.

Dismissed

You sure are.

Would you like to bet on MacArthur?

No.

If you can provide credible evidence that MacArthur thought that invasion was unnecessary, go ahead and do so.

If not, don't waste my time.

Note that Gar Alperovitz misquotes of people are not credible evidence.

Bet me

Pass.

 

[Open Bolt]

They did not drop an atomic bomb on Tokyo because very little of Tokyo was left, and it would have been wasted.

They considered Yokohama (a suburb of Tokyo) early on as an atomic bomb target. But they dropped it from the atomic target list for some reason and the conventional bombers were quick to lay waste to it before wiser heads could get it back on the atomic target list.

Had they kept it on the atomic target list and free of conventional raids, an atomic bombing there would have given the imperial palace a good view of a live mushroom cloud.

I think it would have made a good fourth target (after Hiroshima, Kyoto, and Kokura Arsenal) because the closeup view of the live mushroom cloud would have been a nice escalation.

Then a good fifth target would have been a simultaneous bombing of Nagasaki and Niigata (a double bombing being another escalation).

Atomic Bomb: Decision -- Target Committee, May 10-11, 1945

Transcribed minutes of Target Committee meeting, Los Alamos, May 10-11, 1945

www.dannen.com

 

[Rigby5]

Yes japan was desperate to surrender. All the us military generals knew the war was over


They just wanted one condition

And that one condition, to not abuse the Emperor, was not unreasonable.
In fact, we did agree to it.

 

[Dayton3]

Japan was contained

"containment" isn't a victory. It wasn't in WW2 or against Iraq.

 

[Rigby5]

That's a lie. It seems you play pretty fast and loose with your terminology. There were a couple of military facilities in Hiroshima. What does that designation require for you to accept it? Must there be a base with thousands of soldiers? THERE WAS.
It's true that there were more civilians killed than soldiers but that is only because by that time the lines had been blurred that designated the difference. The home population was training to meet invasion on the beaches. With SHARPENED STICKS.

The Japanese in Hiroshima suffered LESS than those in Tokyo, just two months prior. You revisionists make me ill.

Wrong.
All the military facilities had long been abandoned, in the attempt to concentrate forces for a defense.
There were no soldiers at Hiroshima or Nagasaki.
If there had been, we would have already bombed them, and then they would have has air defenses.
But neither city had any defenses because there was no longer any valid targets there.
Just ask yourself WHY would Japan have wasted soldiers at Hiroshima or Nagasaki?

 

[Rigby5]

Japan had two million soldiers and ten thousand kamikazes waiting to pounce on our invasion.

Total lie.

If Japan had any military aircraft left at all, then the atomic bombs would never have reached target.
They were each delivered by a single B-29 bomber, which Japanese fighter planes could easily shoot down.
There was no fighter escorts.
So the only possible explanation is that the Japanese simply had run out of planes entirely.
When is what the Pentagon already knew.
They knew that the total number of Japanese planes left was 109, and almost all of those were civilian.
Japan has no fuel, pilots, bullets, food, or anything.

So you do not even believe Bruce Campbell?

 

[Rigby5]

We were going to invade if Japan had kept refusing to surrender.

First of all, Japan NEVER refused to surrender.
Second is that only an idiot would have ever invaded Japan, as the islands made perfect prison colonies.

 

[Rigby5]

I tend to not realize things that are not true, and that claim is not even remotely true.

Read the Geneva conventions of 1906.
Staving out cities is a war crime.
Submarine warfare and mines that do not let civilian food through, are war crimes.