The Nuking of Nagasaki: Even More Immoral and Unnecessary than Hiroshima

[Mac-7]

Demonstrably untrue.

We are just repeating ourselves now

 

[Unkotare]

We are just repeating ourselves now

That's all you've been doing since page 1.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Demonstrably untrue.

YOU have NEVER once linked to a verifiable source, EVER.

 

[DudleySmith]

And how much power exactly did the public in Japan have? Even the Diet at that time was controlled by the military.

Even before the war, every single Prime Minister was either an Admiral, or General. And the Prime Minister ran the country. They controlled the Diet and Emperor both. Nothing came to a vote in the Riet without the approval of the Prime Minister, and the Emperor had no power.

And trust me, I lived in Japan. I am not talking about what you are calling "Time/Life", I have been studying the Showa era and before for well over 40 years now. Good luck even finding many books that even talk about the Taisei Yokusankai, let alone most of the other things I commonly discuss in regards to that era.

And "cult tradition", I assume you are trying to talk about Shinto? Yes, the Emperor was a "Living God". He was arahitogami, the living descendent of the Sun Goddess Amaterasu. And as such, he lived on a higher plane than "mere mortals", and it was his job not to run the country, but to be the intermediary between the people and their deity.

Until 1 January 1946, when he gave the Ningen-sengen, or "Humanity Declaration". Where Emperor Showa formally renounced his divinity.

And notice throughout this debate over 170 pages long, and every other the things I say. For example, how I never call the former Emperor "Hirohito". I always address him in the Japanese tradition, after his reign name of Showa, or "Enlightened Peace". This is the Japanese custom, former Emperors are never addressed by their name after death, but their reign name. And how I almost constantly drop very specific references of Japanese culture and organizations.

Ningen-sengen, Taisei Yokusankai, the Japanese response of Mokusatsu to the Potsdam Declaration. Tell me, exactly what "Time'/Life" books actually discuss things like that? You are simply trying to be dismissive because you do not like the message. But trying to insult me does not make what I am saying any less accurate.

Hell, how was the Emperor even going to get the people on his side? All communication out from the Palace was only by messages to the media through the Prime Minister. Hell, until the 15 August 1945 broadcast of the Gyokuon-hōsō or "Jewel Voice Broadcast", the Emperor never even spoke on the radio! Nobody in Japan actually knew what he sounded like. And he was so far removed from the population of his own country that the language he spoke in was archaic, and they actually had to have a translator come on immediately to repeat it into "Common Japanese".

Yet, you think he had "a lot of power with the public"? That is a complete joke, he could barely speak with the "public", he spoke a form of "Court Japanese" that was hundreds of years old, because of the isolation of the Emperors for hundreds of years.

Can you some more long self-contradicting posts? If the Emperor had no power, why was he even included in either the Japanese politics or the American efforts ???

Whatever you've reading I think you were also smoking the pages.

 

[Unkotare]

Can you some more long self-contradicting posts? If the Emperor had no power, why was he even included in either the Japanese politics or the American efforts ???

Whatever you've reading I think you were also smoking the pages.

Your half-assed understanding of culture and history is just ridiculous.

 

[DudleySmith]

Your ignorance is stunning. Take your own advice and learn some actual history, stupid.

You can't find any unflushed toilets to play in this morning? Slow day , eh?

 

[Unkotare]

You can't find any unflushed toilets to play in this morning? Slow day , eh?

Get back to your comic books.

 

[Mushroom]

Somewhat off topic, but it can be said that the mishandling of the end of WWI led to the communists taking power in China. How many of our present political and economic complications are directly related to that?

Actually, China was already in the hand of Socialists.

It must be remembered, that by 1912, China had fallen to a Socialist government, and one that was largely a proto-type to what Mussolini was creating at the exact same time. A National Socialist government.

One that recognizes Dr. Sun as their founder. However, soon there was a split in that party, and a Civil War broke out between the National Socialists and the Marxists, who also considered Dr. Sun to be their founder.

 

[Mushroom]

Can you some more long self-contradicting posts? If the Emperor had no power, why was he even included in either the Japanese politics or the American efforts ???

Whatever you've reading I think you were also smoking the pages.

Really? When did we ever make any addresses to the Emperor himself? Hmmm?

 

[DudleySmith]

Really? When did we ever make any addresses to the Emperor himself? Hmmm?

The Peanut GAllery can amuse themselves with this for a while, for starters:

How a single photograph allowed the Japanese emperor to stay in power

On September 2nd, 1945, the foreign affairs delegation of the Japanese Empire boarded the USS Missouri and signed the Japanese Instrument of Surrender under the guidance of Emperor Hirohito, finally putting an end to bloodiest war mankind h…

www.wearethemighty.com

Gen. MacArthur knew that Japanese culture was very intertwined with the throne. Since the Japanese throne was willing to cooperate fully, America was able to turn its eyes to the burgeoning communist threat lurking in Asia. This plan could only work, however, if the people of Japan believed the Emperor when he said that peace between the two nations had been achieved.


Anybody who doesn't think the Emperor was an important factor before, during, and after the war is simply just nuts.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

What a load of crock.

I am a pacifist, and have spent well over 20 years in uniform.

So pardon me, but blow it out your ass.

Weakling Ethics

The clique you're trying to impress with your dog-whistling virtue signal is dragging America down.

 

[Mushroom]

Gen. MacArthur knew that Japanese culture was very intertwined with the throne

Notice, "Culture" and "Throne". Not "people" and "Emperor".

Please tell me exactly how many times the Emperor talked to "The People" until August 1945. Exactly how many times he addressed them in any form, that was not carefully censored and controlled by the Prime Minister and the rest of the Big Six?

This is not Queen Elizabeth II, or Queen Vicky, or even Il Lamp Ornament or any other leader. And you seem to have absolutely no grasp of that. Almost his only public appearances were graduation from the military academies, and the official opening of the Diet. He did not even go around making speeches to the public as even such leaders might have done in the era before Radio or Movie Cameras. He never even had his voice recorded prior to August 1945, they felt it was impossible to record as he was a deity, and doing so would have been insulting.

You keep confusing him with a Western Monarch. Where appearing in public was part of the job. The Japanese Emperor was tightly sequestered, almost never leaving the Imperial Palace. Heck, he barely even spoke "Real Japanese", but instead a dialect hundreds of years old, that is how isolated he was from the people.

He was their intermediary between them and the Gods. A God on Earth, and was not expected to interact with them. To the Japanese people, he was himself a minor deity, and they never heard him talk, ever.

You can say the same things over and over again, but you seem to fail to grasp this very critical aspect. To be honest, for over a thousand years the exact butt that rested on that throne was of no real importance to them. Just that a member of the kōshitsu (Imperial House), that is descended from Emperor Jimmu, descendent of the Goddess Amaterasu has their ass sitting on the chrysanthemum throne.

You keep making the huge mistake that Emperor Showa was seen as a European Emperor was. He was not, not even close. You apparently completely lack the frame of reference to grasp this, and are not even willing to understand it.

 

[Mushroom]

The clique you're trying to impress with your dog-whistling virtue signal is dragging America down.

Sorry, I do not even understand what that means. But obviously you know nothing of me, and most likely the military either. Therefore, easily dismissed.

 

[Plow Boy]

Right, like you know anything you haven't been fed. If anything we should have then nuked China and the USSR.

We should have been ready to bomb Japan a third time; and to send a signal to China and Russia, that they were next, if need be.

 

[Plow Boy]

Notice, "Culture" and "Throne". Not "people" and "Emperor".

Please tell me exactly how many times the Emperor talked to "The People" until August 1945. Exactly how many times he addressed them in any form, that was not carefully censored and controlled by the Prime Minister and the rest of the Big Six?

This is not Queen Elizabeth II, or Queen Vicky, or even Il Lamp Ornament or any other leader. And you seem to have absolutely no grasp of that. Almost his only public appearances were graduation from the military academies, and the official opening of the Diet. He did not even go around making speeches to the public as even such leaders might have done in the era before Radio or Movie Cameras. He never even had his voice recorded prior to August 1945, they felt it was impossible to record as he was a deity, and doing so would have been insulting.

You keep confusing him with a Western Monarch. Where appearing in public was part of the job. The Japanese Emperor was tightly sequestered, almost never leaving the Imperial Palace. Heck, he barely even spoke "Real Japanese", but instead a dialect hundreds of years old, that is how isolated he was from the people.

He was their intermediary between them and the Gods. A God on Earth, and was not expected to interact with them. To the Japanese people, he was himself a minor deity, and they never heard him talk, ever.

You can say the same things over and over again, but you seem to fail to grasp this very critical aspect. To be honest, for over a thousand years the exact butt that rested on that throne was of no real importance to them. Just that a member of the kōshitsu (Imperial House), that is descended from Emperor Jimmu, descendent of the Goddess Amaterasu has their ass sitting on the chrysanthemum throne.

You keep making the huge mistake that Emperor Showa was seen as a European Emperor was. He was not, not even close. You apparently completely lack the frame of reference to grasp this, and are not even willing to understand it.

Shinto seems to be a death cult, with weirdo gods, and that was Japans faith. And you seem to know too much about way to little.
We bombed them into submission, instead of invading and losing 100,000 men. Who care about some minutia of Shinto.

 

[Unkotare]

Shinto seems to be a death cult, with weirdo gods, and that was Japans faith. And you seem to know too much about way to little.
We bombed them into submission, instead of invading and losing 100,000 men. Who care about some minutia of Shinto.

It would be to your benefit to stop talking so much until you are not so ignorant, kid.

 

[Mushroom]

We should have been ready to bomb Japan a third time; and to send a signal to China and Russia, that they were next, if need be.

China? Really, China?

You are aware are you not, that in 1945 China was our ally. So why in the hell would we be using such to "send a message" to our ally? Were we also sending one to the UK as well, to not think about trying to regain their colonies?

 

[Mushroom]

Shinto seems to be a death cult, with weirdo gods, and that was Japans faith. And you seem to know too much about way to little.
We bombed them into submission, instead of invading and losing 100,000 men. Who care about some minutia of Shinto.

Actually, Shinto is anything but a "death cult". However, to most it remains a mystery.

However, it must be recognized that unlike most other cultures on the planet, Japan still does not have a strong cultural prohibition on suicide. In times of bad economy, it is still not unusual to see the owners of businesses that fail kill themselves from a sense of shame because they failed. And it is still common when adults get fired. Or even among teens who fail entry into a university they wanted to go to.

Where acceptance and conformity are the norm, and failing to live up to that can lose face. And in the culture, suicide is an accepted way to regain your honor. But that is not just Shinto, that is simply their cultural viewpoint. Not unlike a rabid Islamic suicide bomber would see nothing wrong with killing themselves to take out some they see as the enemy.

In that, culturally the Japanese people are not much different, but they generally do not rush out to embrace death as a rule. There are always some fanatics, which is how the Kamikaze started in the first place. But if a battle is lost, they still believe it is better to die fighting than to surrender.

It must be remembered, this was a unique culture, that while not looking for death, also did not fear it. Where before entering battle a Samurai would take care to make sure their make-up and hair were perfect. So if they fell in battle, their head their head would look it's best when presented to the commanding general. Something continued even as the Meiji Restoration stomped out the last of the Samurai.

And even into the Showa era, the Japanese thought nothing of beheading, even though it horrified most of the rest of the world. However, I will admit that I often chuckle when I see some hipster with a douche knot, and wonder if they wear it for the same reason the Samurai wore theirs.

So the victor could easily hold their head after it was cut off for presentation. And they would be sure the person presenting it was not soiled by their blood.

 

[Plow Boy]

Actually, Shinto is anything but a "death cult". However, to most it remains a mystery.

However, it must be recognized that unlike most other cultures on the planet, Japan still does not have a strong cultural prohibition on suicide. In times of bad economy, it is still not unusual to see the owners of businesses that fail kill themselves from a sense of shame because they failed. And it is still common when adults get fired. Or even among teens who fail entry into a university they wanted to go to.

Where acceptance and conformity are the norm, and failing to live up to that can lose face. And in the culture, suicide is an accepted way to regain your honor. But that is not just Shinto, that is simply their cultural viewpoint. Not unlike a rabid Islamic suicide bomber would see nothing wrong with killing themselves to take out some they see as the enemy.

In that, culturally the Japanese people are not much different, but they generally do not rush out to embrace death as a rule. There are always some fanatics, which is how the Kamikaze started in the first place. But if a battle is lost, they still believe it is better to die fighting than to surrender.

It must be remembered, this was a unique culture, that while not looking for death, also did not fear it. Where before entering battle a Samurai would take care to make sure their make-up and hair were perfect. So if they fell in battle, their head their head would look it's best when presented to the commanding general. Something continued even as the Meiji Restoration stomped out the last of the Samurai.

And even into the Showa era, the Japanese thought nothing of beheading, even though it horrified most of the rest of the world. However, I will admit that I often chuckle when I see some hipster with a douche knot, and wonder if they wear it for the same reason the Samurai wore theirs.

So the victor could easily hold their head after it was cut off for presentation. And they would be sure the person presenting it was not soiled by their blood.

Garbage.Shinto is an Earth religion that does not value life, and you seem like another know it all.

 

[Unkotare]

Garbage.Shinto is an Earth religion that does not value life, and you seem like another know it all.

YOU seem like you DON'T know what you're talking about.