The Nuking of Nagasaki: Even More Immoral and Unnecessary than Hiroshima

[Unkotare]

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And no matter what, the US could not accept a surrender anyways. All of the Allied Powers had to agree. Does anybody think that the UK would have agreed to those conditions? France? the Netherlands?
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[RetiredGySgt]

No, speculation.

you make shit up constantly. You lie about what people said and what they meant. You don't source or link to anything to back up your ignorant claims.

 

[DudleySmith]

Actually, they did not get beat. Not a single foreign soldier had stepped their foot inside of Germany. The entire "Western Front" was well inside of France when the war ended. What happened was that the German Government collapsed, and the new interim one requested an armistice that was granted.

They were not beat, their front did not collapse. In fact, they were already sending even more soldiers to the West after the end of the fighting with the Russians when their government collapsed. And would likely have rebuilt over the winter, and started an even stronger offensive when the snows melted.

Sorry, you have been listening to some really bad propaganda. There is a reason why WWI ended with an armistice.

First of all, I already pointed out why they didn't set foot in Germany after the allies had them in full rout. The French and British did not want the Americans to end up running the peace after the end. sorry , but you need to find some more detailed histories than hagiographies from Reader's Digest and Time/Life Book collections. Wilson kept trying to screw over our allies, secretly approaching the Germans three times looking for unilateral negoiations. The Allies did not want the U.S. dominating the aftermath of the war, which would have been the case if American troops had been allowed to occupy Germany; American were thought to be too friendly with them, and that did indeed turn out to be the case. The Germans were forced to pay reparations, severely limit their armed forces, and several other clauses that onlly losers would have to accept.

 

[DudleySmith]

What a load of crock.

I am a pacifist, and have spent well over 20 years in uniform.

So pardon me, but blow it out your ass.

Those pacifist CO's who served as medics certainly proved themselves under heavy fire countless times in all wars in this century.

 

[DudleySmith]

You're being facetious, right? You really cannot be serious.

He's just trolling trying for a semantics farce of some kind. They were thoroughly defeated in both wars, resoundingly so.

 

[Mushroom]

First of all, I already pointed out why they didn't set foot in Germany after the allies had them in full rout.

They were not in full rout. When your very first statement is an obvious blunder, the other nonsense is even more suspect.

I am not trolling. I am simply amazed at how little most seem to know about WWI. Just take a poll and ask how many Americans believe the US got involved because of the Lusitania. That alone screams of the ignorance of most about that war.

There was still fierce fighting on the trenchline in the moments before the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month. That is not a route.

The left the war the same reason the Russians did. Their government collapsed, neither one was "beat".

 

[Markle]

I am completely serious. Hell, just look at a map.

Hell, the actual battle lines hardly changed during the entire war once Germany bogged down in their initial push way back in 1918. From then on, it barely moved more than a mile or so before the other side counter attacked and pushed it back to where it was before. In November 1918, Germany still occupied most of Belgium, and large areas of France. And showed absolutely no sign of breaking or retreating.

What ended the war was the German Revolution of 1918, which broke out on 29 October 1918, and by 9 October forced the Kaiser to abdicate. The new government immediately offered an armistice, and the UK-France-US alliance agreed. But do not think it was a surrender, there is a damned good reason it was an Armistice. And it was celebrated as "Armistice Day".

A huge difference between VE and VJ days. It ended the same way the Korean War stopped. With an armistice, not a surrender.

But I am also aware that a lot of people are amazingly ignorant of WWI. Every time I hear that the US joined because of the sinking of the RMS Lusitania, I just want to shake my head at the incredible ignorance. I have absolutely no idea why people do not even bother to do basic research before spouting off their nonsense.

The subject is WW II and the dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan.

 

[Mushroom]

Those pacifist CO's who served as medics certainly proved themselves under heavy fire countless times in all wars in this century.

And not only as medics and corpsmen, but also a lot of the logistics that the war required. Quakers in particular were often placed in quartermaster and logistical fields. They could still serve, but not required to fight.

 

[Mushroom]

The subject is WW II and the dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan

Of this I am well aware.

But the reason that the Allied Powers refused to consider an end to the war without a surrender, disarmament, and occupation goes all the way back to World War I. They learned the hard way that leaving an enemy bitter after a war and retaining the ability to rearm themselves and trying again only guarantees that they will do exactly that. And make no mistakes, Japan if their ideal terms had been met would have done exactly that. And within 10-20 years there would have been yet another war with them.

Which they all knew. Japan wanted time to rebuild and rearm itself, so they could try again. The Allies knew this, and refused to consider any kind of terms that would give them that chance. Because otherwise, it would have been exactly as Germany in WWI. Ending the war without any foreign troops actually on their land, saying they were beat for other reasons and itching for another fight. The entire time they were preparing, saying "next time, it will be different!".

And trust me, the Japanese had a long bitterness towards the European Powers. Going all the way back to 1899. I actually trace the actual beginnings of WWII all the way back to a conflict in 1899, because most of the alliances and grudges that ultimately culminated in WWII actually started in a "war" all the way back then and are almost entirely forgotten.

 

[Markle]

Of this I am well aware.

But the reason that the Allied Powers refused to consider an end to the war without a surrender, disarmament, and occupation goes all the way back to World War I. They learned the hard way that leaving an enemy bitter after a war and retaining the ability to rearm themselves and trying again only guarantees that they will do exactly that. And make no mistakes, Japan if their ideal terms had been met would have done exactly that. And within 10-20 years there would have been yet another war with them.

Which they all knew. Japan wanted time to rebuild and rearm itself, so they could try again. The Allies knew this, and refused to consider any kind of terms that would give them that chance. Because otherwise, it would have been exactly as Germany in WWI. Ending the war without any foreign troops actually on their land, saying they were beat for other reasons and itching for another fight. The entire time they were preparing, saying "next time, it will be different!".

And trust me, the Japanese had a long bitterness towards the European Powers. Going all the way back to 1899. I actually trace the actual beginnings of WWII all the way back to a conflict in 1899, because most of the alliances and grudges that ultimately culminated in WWII actually started in a "war" all the way back then and are almost entirely forgotten.

The subject is WW II and the dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan.

 

[DudleySmith]

Of this I am well aware.

But the reason that the Allied Powers refused to consider an end to the war without a surrender, disarmament, and occupation goes all the way back to World War I. They learned the hard way that leaving an enemy bitter after a war and retaining the ability to rearm themselves and trying again only guarantees that they will do exactly that. And make no mistakes, Japan if their ideal terms had been met would have done exactly that. And within 10-20 years there would have been yet another war with them.

Which they all knew. Japan wanted time to rebuild and rearm itself, so they could try again. The Allies knew this, and refused to consider any kind of terms that would give them that chance. Because otherwise, it would have been exactly as Germany in WWI. Ending the war without any foreign troops actually on their land, saying they were beat for other reasons and itching for another fight. The entire time they were preparing, saying "next time, it will be different!".

And trust me, the Japanese had a long bitterness towards the European Powers. Going all the way back to 1899. I actually trace the actual beginnings of WWII all the way back to a conflict in 1899, because most of the alliances and grudges that ultimately culminated in WWII actually started in a "war" all the way back then and are almost entirely forgotten.

The rise of Wilhelm II and the sacking of Bismarck were key turning points. His rise and fall, and the fall of the Czars, could be seen as the last gasp of Feudalism in Europe. The same could be said of Japan and the end of the Samurai cult and the Emperor's reduction to a figurehead is in the same pattern.

 

[Turtlesoup]

No, speculation.

You hide your head in the sand and ignore all facts....

 

[Mushroom]

The same could be said of Japan and the end of the Samurai cult and the Emperor's reduction to a figurehead is in the same pattern.

You think the Emperor actually had power before the Meiji Restoration?

You know, that is the name of the Reign that saw the end of the Samurai, and the rise of the modern nation of Japan. And it was not called the "Restoration" for nothing.

During the Shogunate, the Emperor had even less power than he did after the Restoration. Then they had absolutely no power, until after Showa's grandfather destroyed their power and a government formed where at least he had powers close to that of the US Vice President.

Which is still damned near none. He was at least present then when his Council convened, and had limited input through proxies. And in the event of a tie, he was the tiebreaker. But prior to that, they literally had no power.

From 758 when Minamoto no Yoritomo became Shogun until 1868 when the Tokagawa Shogunate was overthrown, the Emperor was almost entirely ceremonial. And during the seven years of the reign of Taisho, the powers of the Emperor held by Meiji were largely turned back over to the military leadership, and remained that way until 1926 when he died (Taisho was in poor health and was almost totally unable to perform any of the duties of Emperor). And remained that way largely ever since.

I suggest you actually learn some Japanese history. Even under the Taisei Yokusankai (Imperial Rule Assistance Association), the Emperor had more power than they ever did under the Shoguns.

 

[DudleySmith]

You think the Emperor actually had power before the Meiji Restoration?

You know, that is the name of the Reign that saw the end of the Samurai, and the rise of the modern nation of Japan. And it was not called the "Restoration" for nothing.

During the Shogunate, the Emperor had even less power than he did after the Restoration. Then they had absolutely no power, until after Showa's grandfather destroyed their power and a government formed where at least he had powers close to that of the US Vice President.

Which is still damned near none. He was at least present then when his Council convened, and had limited input through proxies. And in the event of a tie, he was the tiebreaker. But prior to that, they literally had no power.

From 758 when Minamoto no Yoritomo became Shogun until 1868 when the Tokagawa Shogunate was overthrown, the Emperor was almost entirely ceremonial. And during the seven years of the reign of Taisho, the powers of the Emperor held by Meiji were largely turned back over to the military leadership, and remained that way until 1926 when he died (Taisho was in poor health and was almost totally unable to perform any of the duties of Emperor). And remained that way largely ever since.

I suggest you actually learn some Japanese history. Even under the Taisei Yokusankai (Imperial Rule Assistance Association), the Emperor had more power than they ever did under the Shoguns.

The Emperor still had a lot of power with the public, as many of the posts here, including your own, demonstrate. I suggest you grow up, and then go read some real history books. Those Time/Life collections don't really cut it. The cult tradition was alive and well in the Imperial military, as demonstrating by its spinoff in the Kamakazi pilots, and of course those swords they carried around.

 

[Mushroom]

The Emperor still had a lot of power with the public

And how much power exactly did the public in Japan have? Even the Diet at that time was controlled by the military.

Even before the war, every single Prime Minister was either an Admiral, or General. And the Prime Minister ran the country. They controlled the Diet and Emperor both. Nothing came to a vote in the Riet without the approval of the Prime Minister, and the Emperor had no power.

And trust me, I lived in Japan. I am not talking about what you are calling "Time/Life", I have been studying the Showa era and before for well over 40 years now. Good luck even finding many books that even talk about the Taisei Yokusankai, let alone most of the other things I commonly discuss in regards to that era.

And "cult tradition", I assume you are trying to talk about Shinto? Yes, the Emperor was a "Living God". He was arahitogami, the living descendent of the Sun Goddess Amaterasu. And as such, he lived on a higher plane than "mere mortals", and it was his job not to run the country, but to be the intermediary between the people and their deity.

Until 1 January 1946, when he gave the Ningen-sengen, or "Humanity Declaration". Where Emperor Showa formally renounced his divinity.

And notice throughout this debate over 170 pages long, and every other the things I say. For example, how I never call the former Emperor "Hirohito". I always address him in the Japanese tradition, after his reign name of Showa, or "Enlightened Peace". This is the Japanese custom, former Emperors are never addressed by their name after death, but their reign name. And how I almost constantly drop very specific references of Japanese culture and organizations.

Ningen-sengen, Taisei Yokusankai, the Japanese response of Mokusatsu to the Potsdam Declaration. Tell me, exactly what "Time'/Life" books actually discuss things like that? You are simply trying to be dismissive because you do not like the message. But trying to insult me does not make what I am saying any less accurate.

Hell, how was the Emperor even going to get the people on his side? All communication out from the Palace was only by messages to the media through the Prime Minister. Hell, until the 15 August 1945 broadcast of the Gyokuon-hōsō or "Jewel Voice Broadcast", the Emperor never even spoke on the radio! Nobody in Japan actually knew what he sounded like. And he was so far removed from the population of his own country that the language he spoke in was archaic, and they actually had to have a translator come on immediately to repeat it into "Common Japanese".

Yet, you think he had "a lot of power with the public"? That is a complete joke, he could barely speak with the "public", he spoke a form of "Court Japanese" that was hundreds of years old, because of the isolation of the Emperors for hundreds of years.

 

[Unkotare]

You hide your head in the sand and ignore all facts....

I have provided facts. You have provided YOUR emotions.

 

[Unkotare]

The Emperor still had a lot of power with the public, as many of the posts here, including your own, demonstrate. I suggest you grow up, and then go read some real history books. Those Time/Life collections don't really cut it. The cult tradition was alive and well in the Imperial military, as demonstrating by its spinoff in the Kamakazi pilots, and of course those swords they carried around.

Your ignorance is stunning. Take your own advice and learn some actual history, stupid.

 

[Unkotare]

Of this I am well aware.

But the reason that the Allied Powers refused to consider an end to the war without a surrender, disarmament, and occupation goes all the way back to World War I. ....

Somewhat off topic, but it can be said that the mishandling of the end of WWI led to the communists taking power in China. How many of our present political and economic complications are directly related to that?

 

[Mac-7]

I have provided facts.

No, you have provided opinions of dubious value

 

[Unkotare]

...you have provided opinions of dubious value

Demonstrably untrue.