The Nuking of Nagasaki: Even More Immoral and Unnecessary than Hiroshima

[Regent23]

Generals usually have different goals than the enlisted pukes. The general's fame rests on winning battles and the enlisted man wants to get home alive, with all his body parts.

 

[Mushroom]

Do you still think the attack on the US military base at Pearl Harbor was an "invasion"? You never did address that claim of yours.

Not at all.

But what happened to the Philippines, Wake, and Guam was undoubtedly w as an invasion.

 

[Mushroom]

There likely would not have been a war with Japan.

Oh, the war would have happened.

Japan started drafting the plans for the opening shots way back in January 1941. By March they had built a lagoon that replicated in scale Pearl Harbor, complete with ships (that they moved in and out daily as reports came in as of their movements).

By April the war plan was down to 2 choices, if the attack on Hawaii was to be followed by an amphibious assault and occupation (Genda Plan), or just an attack. Aviation squadron commanders started doing walkthroughs of the scale lagoon.

By late April, the final plan was decided.

In May, operational orders were being sent to units, individual pilots were starting "walkthroughs" of the lagoon to plan attack routes and profiles. The mock lagoon was updated daily thanks to updated by Japanese spy Takeo Yoshikawa.

By June, operational planning was in the final stages. Modified torpedoes were approved for the shallow waters of the harbor and were being modified.

In August, the embargo started.

No, the attack was going to happen, way back in January when it was first drafted it was estimated that it would commence by the end of the year. They had already made up their minds there would be war, even before the US and UK ran them off from the Dutch East Indies, or the oil embargo.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

There likely would not have been a war with Japan.

Oh, the war would have happened.

Japan started drafting the plans for the opening shots way back in January 1941. By March they had built a lagoon that replicated in scale Pearl Harbor, complete with ships (that they moved in and out daily as reports came in as of their movements).

By April the war plan was down to 2 choices, if the attack on Hawaii was to be followed by an amphibious assault and occupation (Genda Plan), or just an attack. Aviation squadron commanders started doing walkthroughs of the scale lagoon.

By late April, the final plan was decided.

In May, operational orders were being sent to units, individual pilots were starting "walkthroughs" of the lagoon to plan attack routes and profiles. The mock lagoon was updated daily thanks to updated by Japanese spy Takeo Yoshikawa.

By June, operational planning was in the final stages. Modified torpedoes were approved for the shallow waters of the harbor and were being modified.

In August, the embargo started.

No, the attack was going to happen, way back in January when it was first drafted it was estimated that it would commence by the end of the year. They had already made up their minds there would be war, even before the US and UK ran them off from the Dutch East Indies, or the oil embargo.

I disagree. If we had modern media tech then the US would have known and have been well prepared.

 

[Mushroom]

I disagree. If we had modern media tech then the US would have known and have been well prepared.

Yea. And if Pierre Villeneuve had an aircraft carrier he would not have lost at Trafalgar.

And no, we would not. That is what OPSEC is all about. That is why AQ was so effective in 2000-2001. They knew better than to send electronic messages so everything of importance was hand delivered.

Japan never sent a single radio message about "Operation Z", for this reason. Everything related to it was hand carry only. We only knew something was up because the "radio chatter" increased, and the few intercepts we had talked about an operation. But not where it was to take place.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

I disagree. If we had modern media tech then the US would have known and have been well prepared.

Yea. And if Pierre Villeneuve had an aircraft carrier he would not have lost at Trafalgar.

And no, we would not. That is what OPSEC is all about. That is why AQ was so effective in 2000-2001. They knew better than to send electronic messages so everything of importance was hand delivered.

Japan never sent a single radio message about "Operation Z", for this reason. Everything related to it was hand carry only. We only knew something was up because the "radio chatter" increased, and the few intercepts we had talked about an operation. But not where it was to take place.

I disagree and we ll never know. Many suspected an attack on Pearl Harbor so it wasn’t a shock.

 

[Unkotare]

If we had modern media tech then the US would have known and have been well prepared.

fdr knew conflict was coming and he did nothing to prepare (or deliberately made sure nothing was done).

 

[Unkotare]

I disagree. If we had modern media tech then the US would have known and have been well prepared.

Yea. And if Pierre Villeneuve had an aircraft carrier he would not have lost at Trafalgar.

And no, we would not. That is what OPSEC is all about. That is why AQ was so effective in 2000-2001. They knew better than to send electronic messages so everything of importance was hand delivered.

Japan never sent a single radio message about "Operation Z", for this reason. Everything related to it was hand carry only. We only knew something was up because the "radio chatter" increased, and the few intercepts we had talked about an operation. But not where it was to take place.

Bull crap. A week before Pearl Harbor a story was published on the front page of the New York Herald Tribune quoting Tojo warning that war was coming in no uncertain terms.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

If we had modern media tech then the US would have known and have been well prepared.

fdr knew conflict was coming and he did nothing to prepare (or deliberately made sure nothing was done).

Yeah and with social media these days he would have never lived it down.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

I disagree. If we had modern media tech then the US would have known and have been well prepared.

Yea. And if Pierre Villeneuve had an aircraft carrier he would not have lost at Trafalgar.

And no, we would not. That is what OPSEC is all about. That is why AQ was so effective in 2000-2001. They knew better than to send electronic messages so everything of importance was hand delivered.

Japan never sent a single radio message about "Operation Z", for this reason. Everything related to it was hand carry only. We only knew something was up because the "radio chatter" increased, and the few intercepts we had talked about an operation. But not where it was to take place.

Bull crap. A week before Pearl Harbor a story was published on the front page of the New York Herald Tribune quoting Tojo warning that war was coming in no uncertain terms.

Yeah but info was slow back then. Now everyone in the US would know in 5 seconds. I just think war is harder to wage these days.

 

[Regent23]

... The world is a much different place now. ...

How so, relative to the topic at hand?

We just have a lot more knowledge and easier communication skills.

If they had our knowledge and communication skills and technology, how do you think that would have affected decisions related to the war?

Our bombs would have been more lethal, and would have been delivered in a different fashion.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

The victors write the history books. It's easy to find evidence that the Japanese were so desperate for reasonable surrender terms that they went to Stalin. "Give 'em Hell Harry" refused to even send an envoy. The hangup in the FDR doctrine of "unconditional surrender" was the Japanese Emperor. The Japanese holdouts wanted to keep the Emperor from being executed but Truman refused to consider it. Ironically the Emperor's life was spared after Truman authorized the incineration of a million Japanese civilians. God help us but the only nuclear attack in history is on the soul of America.

That first sentence with those six words you sole could not be more true about how the victors always get to rewrite history,excellent post on everything you said.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

You people are beyond stupid when you listen to revisionist stories about how Japan was gonna surrender, lets talk FACTS shall we

Sure

Truman was as racist as a human being could get, used the N word , and considered Asians below the N word

Manchuria ,along with Japans back yard was up for grabs

And the Russians , who offe'd their OWN czar, would have thought nothing of publicly executing an emperor

Now the Japanese did have quite the squabble among higher up's after Fat man and Little boy debuted, but it was all about a surrender negotiation that had BEEN on the table, vs. one they (the bomb) created for them

~S~

Exactly,you nailed it.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

The victors write the history books. It's easy to find evidence that the Japanese were so desperate for reasonable surrender terms that they went to Stalin. "Give 'em Hell Harry" refused to even send an envoy. The hangup in the FDR doctrine of "unconditional surrender" was the Japanese Emperor. The Japanese holdouts wanted to keep the Emperor from being executed but Truman refused to consider it. Ironically the Emperor's life was spared after Truman authorized the incineration of a million Japanese civilians. God help us but the only nuclear attack in history is on the soul of America.

That first sentence with those six words you sole could not be more true about how the victors always get to rewrite history,excellent post on everything you said.

Simply NOT true. The Japanese were offering to Stalin an alliance against the US if they the Soviets would convince the allies to let Japan get a ceasefire and no consequences for the war. I have linked repeatedly to the facts and people conveniently ignore them. You are either IGNORANT or liars.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Henry Stimson, Secretary of War

http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/ps/japan/stimson_harpers.pdf

My chief purpose was to end the war in victory with the least possible cost in the lives of the men in the armies which I had helped to raise. In the light of the alternatives which, on a fair estimate, were open to us I believe that no man in our position and subject to our responsibilities, holding in his hands a weapon of such possibilities for accomplishing this purpose and saving those lives, could have failed to use it and afterwards looked his countrymen in the face.

That is obscenely absurd and revisionist. Stimson didn't even really write that article. He was pressured into "writing" it, and then his "draft" was heavily edited by others. By the time he "wrote" it, he was quite ill.

Months before we nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Japan was already prostrate, starving, and virtually powerless. The home islands were cut off from China. The Japanese people were approaching the point of starvation. Japan was virtually defenseless against air and naval attacks. Consider:

-- In July 1945 the Japanese government was forced to impose yet another cut in staple food rations: a cut of 10%, in fact. As a result, the food ration per person fell below 1700 calories, well below the minimum needed to maintain basic health. The United States Strategic Bombing Survey, published in 1946, noted.

Undernourishment produced a major increase in the incidence of beriberi and tuberculosis. It also had an important effect on the efficiency and morale of the people, and contributed to absenteeism among workers. (p. 21)​

-- Cases of night blindness due to malnutrition became common.

-- Japan was even running so low on rice that the government announced a program to process acorns as a substitute for rice.

-- The food shortage became so bad that the government actually published articles and booklets on how to eat food no one would usually eat, such as “Food Substitution: How to Eat Things People Normally Wouldn’t Eat.” One government booklet advised citizens to eat locusts and insect pupas.

-- Japan was running so low on fuel that the government began exploring pine-root oil as a fuel substitute for aircraft.

-- By October 1944, many new fighter pilots were being trained with films instead of live flight training in order to save fuel:

The Toho Motion Picture Company constructed a lake in Setagaya and filled it with six-foot models of U.S. warships. Atop a tower a movie camera on a boom took pictures of the vessels from various angles, simulating different speeds of approach. These films were shown as a substitute for flight training in order to save fuel. (John Toland, The Rising Sun: The Rise and Fall of the Japanese Empire 1936-1945, New York: Random House, 2003 Modern Library Paperback Edition, p. 536)​

-- Japan was running so low on metal that its military aircraft were increasingly made with larger amounts of wood. In fact, in July the government announced it had established a department to make planes out of wood.

-- Starting in early 1944 the lack of metals became so severe, due to the U.S. naval blockade, that the Japanese government was forced to start confiscating and melting bridge railings, metal fences, metal statues (even those in Buddhist temples), gate posts, notice boards, and even household items.

-- Although Japan built underground aircraft factories, raw materials were in such short supply that only 10—yes, just 10—aircraft were manufactured in those factories.

-- In March 1945, imports of crude oil, rubber, coal, and iron ore ceased.

-- By June 1945, Japan had a grand total of 9,000 planes of any kind. Most of these were trainers or old planes designed for kamikaze raids, and less than half of them were properly equipped for such raids. Many of those planes could not have been flown anyway due to the lack of fuel.

-- By early 1945, the vast majority of Japan’s merchant vessels had been destroyed.

-- By June 1945, the Japanese Navy’s surface fleet had essentially ceased to exist. The United States Strategic Bombing Survey reported,

After the liberation of the Philippines and the capture of Okinawa, oil imports into Japan were completely cut off; fuel oil stocks had been exhausted, and the few remaining Japanese warships, being without fuel, were decommissioned or were covered with camouflage and used only as antiaircraft platforms. Except for its shore-based Kamikaze air force and surface and undersea craft adapted for anti-invasion suicide attack, the Japanese Navy had ceased to exist. (p. 11)​

-- By June 1945, every major Japanese port was mined by the U.S. Navy and the Air Force. Indeed, U.S. Navy mines closed the Shimonoseki Straights, which cut off naval activity between the Japanese main islands of Honshu and Kyushu. U.S. Navy mines also shut down 18 of Japan’s 21 naval repair yards on the Inland Sea. Hiroshima’s port was shut down. Nagasaki’s port, formerly a major port, became nearly worthless.

-- By early 1945, few Japanese stores remained open because there were so few commercial goods being produced or imported.

-- As mentioned earlier, Japan was virtually defenseless against air attacks. By June 1945, the odds of a U.S. bomber being shot down in a bombing raid over Japan were 3 out of 1,000.

Given these facts, it is no surprise that there was such a strong civilian backlash against war veterans and the military in general after the war.

By June 1945, Japan posed no threat to us. The Japanese were purely on the defensive and their situation was only getting worse by the day because of our virtually total naval embargo and total control of the air. Thus, it should come as no surprise that the United States Strategic Bombing Survey concluded that “in all probability” Japan would have surrendered before 1 November 1945 even if we had not dropped nukes and even if the Soviets had not invaded:

Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated. (p. 26)​

So this nonsense that we had to use nukes to "save hundreds of thousands of lives" is gross revisionism of the basest kind. Again, weeks before Hiroshima, we knew from multiple sources that Japan's civilian leaders, including the emperor, wanted to surrender, and that their only condition was that the emperor not be deposed, which was exactly the arrangement that we later accepted--after we had nuked two cities.

Excellent stuff there,thanks for posting it,you so much took the revisionist apologists to school there and checkmated them,great job.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

The victors write the history books. It's easy to find evidence that the Japanese were so desperate for reasonable surrender terms that they went to Stalin. "Give 'em Hell Harry" refused to even send an envoy. The hangup in the FDR doctrine of "unconditional surrender" was the Japanese Emperor. The Japanese holdouts wanted to keep the Emperor from being executed but Truman refused to consider it. Ironically the Emperor's life was spared after Truman authorized the incineration of a million Japanese civilians. God help us but the only nuclear attack in history is on the soul of America.

That first sentence with those six words you sole could not be more true about how the victors always get to rewrite history,excellent post on everything you said.

Simply NOT true. The Japanese were offering to Stalin an alliance against the US if they the Soviets would convince the allies to let Japan get a ceasefire and no consequences for the war. I have linked repeatedly to the facts and people conveniently ignore them. You are either IGNORANT or liars.

This coming from one of the biggest coward lying trolls I know At USMB From Langley who worships EVERYTHING the government tells him ignoring what credible witnesses say that we’re there that contradicts the bs lies of the governments lol but according to your warped fucked up logic you always sprout out,the witnesses there to the past events of government corruption are all lying and our corrupt governments version of events that you worship as gospel truth NEVER lie to us. LOL. Yeah you posted some Government link from Langley your bosses instructed you to do lying troll.lol

Go tell your bs lies like you like to,lie to people all the time about everyday to someone elseou might fool them,you can’t fool me though nor do I ever bother with your bullshit anymore the way you cowardly evade evidence and witness testimony that contradicts the governments version like the coward troll you are never addressing it and pretending experts and witness testimony does not count coward.

You are too idiotic to understand I stopped bothering with feeding you troll Ages ago.

 

[John T. Ford]

I thank God everyday for Harry Truman's decision to drop the Atomic bomb on Japan ...

Hundreds of Thousands of American Lives were spared by his leadership ....

A true American hero .....

It's truly a shame that today's psycho Leftist and history revisionist could not have been included in that death toll ....

 

[LA RAM FAN]

What was on the table? Care to enlighten us so that there is at least a bit of revisionist history to converse about.

~S~

These revisionist trolls of course won’t watch that sparky sense it proves them wrong and they would rather commit suicide rather than ever admitting to being proven wrong.lol

 

[LA RAM FAN]

I see some people are doing everything but addressing the point that three days was far too soon to be dropping another atomic bomb on Japan, not to mention the fact that the bomb should not have been dropped on a civilian target, a target that happened to have had the largest Christian population of any Japanese city.

We rightly said that the 9/11 attack on the Twin Towers in NYC was barbaric, but in the Pacific War we killed hundreds of thousands of civilians, mostly women and children, in our air raids on Japanese cities.

As for Japanese occupation, go read Hildi Kang's book Under the Black Umbrella: Voices from Colonial Korea, 1910–1945. Kang interviewed a large group of Koreans who lived under Japanese rule in Korea and was rather stunned to discover that most of them never experienced cruelty and that quite a few of them said they had no problems with the Japanese. Yes, there were some cases of abuse and cruelty, but these were the exception, not the rule.

Or, read General Elliott Thorpe's book East Wind, Rain. Thorpe was very critical of the Japanese, but even he was willing to admit that the Japanese treated Dutch prisoners from Java better than Sukarno's soldiers treated them.

When the Japanese took over Korea, they spent billions of dollars building schools, bridges, power grids, water works, roads, etc. Korea's economy improved tremendously under the Japanese, thanks to these investments.

Similarly, when the Japanese took over Manchuria, they invested billions in infrastructure. Under Japanese rule, Manchuria became an economic miracle and attracted workers from all over Asia because word got out that there were jobs to be had there. Before the Japanese came to Manchuria, the region had been divided into tribal areas ruled by warlords. One of the reasons the Japanese moved on Manchuria was that the Soviets were trying to bring Communism to the region. The Japanese were fiercely anti-communist and pro-private property.

Now, was Japanese rule in Korea, Manchuria, and Taiwan identical to American rule in the Philippines? No, it was not. But, it was a whole lot better than Chinese Communist rule, Nazi rule, and Soviet rule.

They of course like to pretend this post is not truthful and that they did not see it mike.lol

 

[LA RAM FAN]

I see some people are doing everything but addressing the point that three days was far too soon to be dropping another atomic bomb on Japan, not to mention the fact that the bomb should not have been dropped on a civilian target, a target that happened to have had the largest Christian population of any Japanese city.

It would have been better if we nuked those heathen Buddhists?

Again, at the time, it was seen as "just another weapon". 70 million people had died on all sides at that point.

You don't kill another batch of tens of thousands of civilians of an enemy who you know wants to surrender and who is virtually defenseless and starving. That is just basic human decency, and it is sad that you can't grasp that.

The rest of your post is a lot of apologetic nonsense.

No, it is not. It is a presentation of fact.

Anti-Japanese sentiment in China - Wikipedia

According to a 2017 BBC World Service Poll, mainland Chinese people hold the largest anti-Japanese sentiment in the world, with 75% of Chinese people viewing Japan's influence negatively, and 22% expressing a positive view. Anti-Japanese sentiment in China was at its highest in 2014 since the poll was first conducted in 2006 and was up 16 percent over the previous year

Anti-Japanese sentiment in Korea - Wikipedia

The origins of anti-Japanese attitudes in Korea can be traced back to the effects of Japanese pirate raids and later to the 1592−98 Japanese invasions of Korea. Sentiments in contemporary society are largely attributed to the Japanese rule in Korea from 1910–45. According to a BBC World Service Poll conducted in 2013, 67% of South Koreans view Japan's influence negatively, and 21% express a positive view, making South Korea, behind mainland China, the country with the second most negative feelings of Japan in the world.[1]

sorry these folks don't sound particularly grateful...

Well, yeah, given the fact that the Chinese Communists have long been brainwashing the Chinese people with anti-Japanese propaganda, I'm not a bit surprised by those numbers.

South Korea's anti-Japanese propaganda has not been as bad or as pervasive as China's, which perhaps explains the difference in the survey numbers. Another fact to keep in mind is that after WW II, millions of Koreans emigrated to the United States. So any poll done in South Korea is not going to include those Koreans who moved to America, nor will it include the children of those Koreans who moved to America.

Again, read Hildi Kang's book Under the Black Umbrella: Voices from Colonial Korea, 1910–1945. Kang interviewed numerous Koreans who lived under Japanese rule in Korea. She expresses surprise that most of them never experienced cruelty. At one point, she asks, "Where are all the atrocities?" It is an eye-opening book.

Joe has never been able to grasp any of that of course,he just likes to cling to the governments revisionist history No mater how much they have been caught lying.lol