The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

[Sixties Fan]

The Zionists looted and leveled Arab villages.

Give me links

 

[Sixties Fan]

The mandate makes it clear that other people lived in Palestine and their rights were to be respected. Nazism was German nationalism. Do you defend that garbage?

Surada is equating Zionism with Nazism.

 

[surada]

Surada is equating Zionism with Nazism.

Both are rabid nationalism. Nazism is as ugly as Zionism.

There are a hundred sources on Arab villages destroyed by the Zionists.

Destruction of Palestinian villages is not a matter of perspective

An NGO has issued a second edition of its successful Nakba map, showing 601 Palestinian villages and 194 Syrian villages destroyed in 1948 and 1967, respectively, as well as destroyed Jewish communities.

www.haaretz.com

 

[Sixties Fan]

Both are rabid nationalism. Nazism is as ugly as Zionism.

There are a hundred sources on Arab villages destroyed by the Zionists.

Destruction of Palestinian villages is not a matter of perspective

An NGO has issued a second edition of its successful Nakba map, showing 601 Palestinian villages and 194 Syrian villages destroyed in 1948 and 1967, respectively, as well as destroyed Jewish communities.

www.haaretz.com

You are literally telling us that Jews are Nazis. That Zionism is Nazism.

Arab nationalism in the region of Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jewish People, is right and pure.

Rioting against Jews in 1920 is right and pure.
Rioting and killing Jews in 1929 and having them expelled from Hebron is right and pure.
Attacking Jews all over the Mandate is right and pure.
Attacking Jews in TransJordan and ethnically cleansing them from that area, is right and pure.

Rejecting any form of Jewish sovereign country on their Jewish ancient homeland is right and pure.

Rejecting the Jewish right to defend themselves against incitements, attacks and murders of their people is right and pure.

During centuries of Christian and Muslim oppression the Jews were not allowed to protect themselves.

When they were put in Ghettos in Europe, they were not allowed to protect themselves.

During the Inquisition, they were not allowed to protect themselves.

During forced conversions, they were not allowed to protect themselves.

During endless, now and then, attacks on their villages, on their people and on their lives, in Europe and in North Africa and Asia, they were not allowed to protect and defend themselves.

Therefore it is natural for one to think, that when the Jewish People finally decide to rebuild their Nation on their ancient homeland, that not only they are seen as not having such a right, but no right to protect their properties and their lives and do what is needed to survive.


Everyone please imagine the Jews taking arms against their Christian or Muslim hosts because they did not like the Ghettos, or the forced conversions, or anything else meant to demean them and make them less humans.



Jews are not ALLOWED to defend and protect themselves ANYWHERE in the world. For any reason.


The Jews had enough of not being able to defend and protect themselves and legally won the right to rebuild their Nation on their Ancient homeland.


And of course, Christians and Muslims could not accept it. It went against 1700 years of denying the Jews their human rights.


The Jews fought for their nation. In the end they won, because they survived.

And by surviving they continue to thrive.


Accuse the Jews of everything and anything under the sun and the moon and the stars.


It is not on the Jews, it is on those who continue to decide to put them in a place where they are not humans, they have no rights, and definitely not the right to not be attacked and maimed and killed by those who have learned to see them only as inhuman.

 

[surada]

You are literally telling us that Jews are Nazis. That Zionism is Nazism.

Arab nationalism in the region of Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jewish People, is right and pure.

Rioting against Jews in 1920 is right and pure.
Rioting and killing Jews in 1929 and having them expelled from Hebron is right and pure.
Attacking Jews all over the Mandate is right and pure.
Attacking Jews in TransJordan and ethnically cleansing them from that area, is right and pure.

Rejecting any form of Jewish sovereign country on their Jewish ancient homeland is right and pure.

Rejecting the Jewish right to defend themselves against incitements, attacks and murders of their people is right and pure.

During centuries of Christian and Muslim oppression the Jews were not allowed to protect themselves.

When they were put in Ghettos in Europe, they were not allowed to protect themselves.

During the Inquisition, they were not allowed to protect themselves.

During forced conversions, they were not allowed to protect themselves.

During endless, now and then, attacks on their villages, on their people and on their lives, in Europe and in North Africa and Asia, they were not allowed to protect and defend themselves.

Therefore it is natural for one to think, that when the Jewish People finally decide to rebuild their Nation on their ancient homeland, that not only they are seen as not having such a right, but no right to protect their properties and their lives and do what is needed to survive.


Everyone please imagine the Jews taking arms against their Christian or Muslim hosts because they did not like the Ghettos, or the forced conversions, or anything else meant to demean them and make them less humans.



Jews are not ALLOWED to defend and protect themselves ANYWHERE in the world. For any reason.


The Jews had enough of not being able to defend and protect themselves and legally won the right to rebuild their Nation on their Ancient homeland.


And of course, Christians and Muslims could not accept it. It went against 1700 years of denying the Jews their human rights.


The Jews fought for their nation. In the end they won, because they survived.

And by surviving they continue to thrive.


Accuse the Jews of everything and anything under the sun and the moon and the stars.


It is not on the Jews, it is on those who continue to decide to put them in a place where they are not humans, they have no rights, and definitely not the right to not be attacked and maimed and killed by those who have learned to see them only as inhuman.

Nope. Use your brain and your morality. Nationalism is racist and brutal.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Nope. Use your brain and your morality. Nationalism is racist and brutal.

Jewish nationalism over their own ancient homeland is racist and brutal and wrong.

Palestinian nationalism, simply because Muslims have lived on the land for centuries after they invaded it, is self defense from the Jews . It is normal, it is Noble. It is right.
Whatever ways and means they take, the Palestinian nationalism is a decent defense against non Muslims who wish to be sovereign over Muslim conquered lands.

But truly, is it Palestinian nationalism or Arab nationalism?

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Arab nationalism (Arabic: القومية العربية, romanized: al-Qawmīya al-ʿArabīya) is a nationalist ideology that asserts the Arabs are a nation and promotes the unity of Arab people, celebrating the glories of Arab civilization, the languageand literature of the Arabs, and calling for rejuvenation and political union in the Arab world.[1] Its central premise is that the people of the Arab world, from the Atlantic Ocean to the Indian Ocean, constitute one nation bound together by common ethnicity, language, culture, history, identity, geography and politics.[2][3] One of the primary goals of Arab nationalism is the end of Western influence in the Arab world, seen as a "nemesis" of Arab strength, and the removal of those Arab governments considered to be dependent upon Western power. It rose to prominence with the weakening and defeat of the Ottoman Empire in the early 20th century and declined after the defeat of the Arab armies in the Six-Day War.[1][2]

Personalities and groups associated with Arab nationalism include King Faisal I of Iraq, Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser, the Arab Nationalist Movement, Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, the Palestine Liberation Organization, the Arab Socialist Ba'ath Party which came to power in Iraq for some years and is still the ruling party in Syria, and its founder Michel Aflaq. Pan-Arabism is a related concept, in as much as it calls for supranational communalism among the Arab states.[citation needed]


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When speaking about the Middle East, it is common to hear about the “need” and “desire” for Palestinian statehood. But exactly what kind of state do the Palestinians want and what are the roots of Palestinian nationalism?

Historically, the Palestinian “desire for statehood” and “need for liberation” was invented in large part by the Soviet Union. It is no coincidence that the blueprint for the PLO Charter was drafted in Moscow in 1964 and was approved by 422 Palestinian representative hand selected by the KGB. At that time, the USSR was in the business of creating people’s liberation fronts. The KGB founded the PLO as well as the National Liberation Army of Bolivia (1964) with Ernesto “Che” Guevara at its head and the National Liberation Army of Colombia (1965).

These “liberation fronts” were seen by the USSR as centers of Marxist indoctrination and opposition to democratic and capitalist movements. In the Middle East, the only foothold of the democratic west is Israel; nurturing the PLO to undermine Israel was therefore quite natural for the Soviets, who not only helped fund and establish the PLO but also trained and supplied its terrorist operations.

To understand the PLO’s conception of a Palestinian state, it is instructive to examine Article 24 of the original PLO Charter. It reads: “this Organization [the PLO] does not exercise any regional sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, in the Gaza Strip or the Himmah area.” If not the West Bank and Gaza, then what exactly what did, the PLO claim? The Palestine that the PLO wanted was in fact the State of Israel.

Consider that it was not until 1968 that Article 24 was amended to include a claim on the West Bank and Gaza. At the time of the original drafting, Jordan and Egypt controlled the West Bank and Gaza after unilaterally and illegally annexing them following the War of Israeli Independence in 1948. It was only after Israel had gained these territories in the War of 1967 that the Palestinian Arabs declared an interest in controlling them.

The evidence that simple autonomy in the West Bank and Gaza was never the PLO’s true goal is everywhere. In 1970, US Secretary of State William Rogers suggested that the West Bank and Gaza be given up by Israel in return for peace and recognition. This plan was accepted by Israel, Jordan, and Egypt. Only Yasser Arafat, leader of the PLO, rejected it, opting instead to attempt an overthrow of Jordan’s King Hussein.

The evidence runs deeper. Yassir Arafat, who was head of the PLO until 2004, was under the direct tutelage and control of the KGB. Ion Mihai Pacepa, KGB officer and onetime chief of Romanian Intelligence, was assigned to handling Arafat. Pacepa recorded several of his conversations with Arafat when they met in Romania at the palace of brutal dictators Nicolai and Elena Ceausescu. In these conversations, Arafat unequivocally states that his sole aim is to destroy Israel.

(full article online)

The Deception of Palestinian Nationalism

When speaking about the Middle East, it is common to hear about the “need” and “desire” for Palestinian statehood. But exactly what kind of state do the Palestinians want and what are the roots of Palestinian nationalism? Historically, the Palestinian “desire for statehood” and “need for...

stanfordreview.org

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

They were just unarmed families fleeing a warzone. The Zionists destroyed over 300 Arab villages.

The Avalon Project : The Palestine Mandate

Outrageous!!

Only muslims are allowed to destroy villages.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The mandate makes it clear that other people lived in Palestine and their rights were to be respected.

And then the muslims fucked it up.

Don't they feel stupid?

 

[Sixties Fan]

 

[Sixties Fan]

 

[Sixties Fan]

The Jews of the Middle East: Zionists Before Zionism | National Review

The Sephardim whose forebears were driven from Middle Eastern countries make a unique contribution to Israel’s culture and character.

www.nationalreview.com

 

[Sixties Fan]

The writers are gleeful that they ethnically cleansed Jews from Transjordan, and they regard this as an honorable story to tell today.

I cannot find English-language documentation of any of these Jewish settlements in Transjordan in the 19th century. But the story is not altogether implausible. Zionists did buy land across the Jordan, in the Golan Heights. See my previous articles about that here and here.

Moreover, I found an Arabic book about about a dozen plans for Jews to include parts of Transjordan in the Jewish homeland, from the mid-19th century up until the 1940s. Dr. Issam Muhammad Al-Saadi wrote "Zionist Aspirations in Transjordan, 1862 - 1946." It includes all of these attempts (autotranslated so the names might be misspelled):


■ February 1867 AD, Charles Warren publishes his study, which called for the necessity of beginning Jewish settlement in the region of "Gilead" in eastern Jordan

■ January 1871 AD, Yehoshua Yellin establishes a company to invest and reclaim the lands of the "Nimrin Valley" northeast of the Dead Sea in preparation for the Jewish settlement operations in eastern Jordan

■ April 1879 CE, Lawrence Oliphant after his trip to the Golan and Ajloun lays out the "Gilead Settlement Plan" that called for the establishment of a Jewish political entity in Transjordan

■ June 8, 1880 AD, Ottoman historical document, Sublime Porte rejected Lawrence Oliphant's proposal to establish a Jewish settlement with some privileges in Gilead "Sanjak of Ajloun, Transjordan"

■ July 27, 1888 AD, Eliyahu Shed was able to purchase land as part of Baron Rothschild's plan for the settlement of Jews in northeastern Jordan.

■ January 1891, Paul Friedman put forward the "Midian Project" for Jewish settlement in Midyan / the western region of the Arabian Peninsula

■ May 1891 AD, Lord Ghosh presented to the Ottoman government his project for the settlement of Jews in the regions of Gilead and Moab in eastern Jordan

■ October 7, 1894 AD, Zionist settlement attempts in Karak, Transjordan in 1896, and the letter of the Mutasarrif of Karak to the Mutasarrif of Jerusalem

■ June 1896 AD, the expulsion of Jewish settlers and the destruction of their property in Jerash and Hauran, east of Jordan

■ March 22, 1901 AD, Hillel Yefeh's plan and a meeting with the representative of the Zionist movement "Aes Nattoot" to purchase large lands in Karak, Transjordan, for Jewish settlement

■ March 8, 1903, Aharon Blum signs a lease contract for Zizia lands south of Umm al-Amad for the settlement of Jews in eastern Jordan

■ November 24, 1904 AD, a delegation from the Zionist movement headed by Yitzhak Levy visits Transjordan to learn about the "Lepontine" project for Jewish settlement in southern Jordan

■ On April 29, 1905 AD, Aharon Blum signed a contract to purchase land in Hamra in the Salt region for the settlement of Jews in eastern Jordan.

■ On September 20, 1906 AD, Aharon Blum signed a contract to purchase land in Tanib, in the Madaba region, for the settlement of Jews in eastern Jordan.

■ October 1910 AD, Najib al-Asfar's project for Jewish settlement in the Ottoman princely lands in the Jordan Valley

■ On February 15, 1917 AD, the Zionist movement announced through the "Palestine of Palestine" the borders of the national home it aspired to.

■ On June 28, 1919, the Zionist movement announced its strong protest against the separation of Transjordan from Palestine and expressed the importance of Transjordan for the future of the Jewish state in Palestine
■ July 13, 1928 AD, Pinhas Rotenberg presented to the British commissioner Henry Cox his plan for the Jewish settlement in the lands of Al-Baqura east of Jordan

■ January 18, 1931 AD, The New York Times publishes a land lease agreement in Ghor Kebd.

■ March 8, 1936 AD, Pinhas Rothenberg presented his plan for the Jewish settlement in Wadi Zarqa, east of Jordan

■ August 15, 1936 AD, a meeting was held in Ghor al-Safi for members of a Jewish group to discuss the plan for the Jewish settlement in the al-Safi Valley in eastern Jordan


Outside of Pinhas Rutenberg, I have never heard of any of these plans. But I found Aharon Yitzchak Blum did indeed attempt to buy lands across the Jordan and even founded an organization called "חברת חלוצי עבר הירדן", Association of Pioneers of the Transjordan.

This may be a very neglected chapter of Zionist history. I found this paperin Hebrew about Blum that begins with confirmation that there were many Jewish attempts to settle across the Jordan as well as the resistance of the local tribes.

In the second half of the nineteenth century and in the first half of the present century, until close to the establishment of the state, organizations, institutions, individuals and sometimes even private entrepreneurs made attempts to acquire land for settlement across the Jordan. ...There was no hesitation about moving across the Jordan; It was, like the West Bank, part of the Ottoman Empire and was perceived in the minds of the many as an integral part of the land, the land of the patriarchs, emphasizing the acuteness of the security problem there, due to the Bedouin ruling the land. The idea of settlement there was intertwined with political ideas, both during the Ottoman rule - to establish Jewish autonomy - and of a desire - especially during the rule of the French and British Mandates - to secure the full territory of the country.

There may be lands in Jordan that were purchased by Jews who were ethnically cleansed by the Arab tribes!

(full article online)

Did Jews buy land in Transjordan as early as the 1870s?

Blogging about Israel and the Arab world since, oh, forever.

elderofziyon.blogspot.com

 

[Sixties Fan]

 

[rylah]

Nope. Use your brain and your morality. Nationalism is racist and brutal.

Let's use your morality - if nationalism is racist and brutal,

why support Arab nationalism?

Explain the contradiction.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Who Dispossessed the Palestinian Peasant?

The Palestinian peasant was indeed being dispossessed, but by his fellow-Arabs: the local sheikh and village elders, the Government tax-collector, the merchants and money-lenders; and, when he was a tenant-farmer (as was usually the case), by the absentee-owner. By the time the season’s crop had been distributed among all these, little if anything remained for him and his family, and new debts generally had to be incurred to pay off the old. Then the Bedouin came along and took their “cut”, or drove the hapless fellah off the land altogether.

This was the “normal” course of events in 19th-century Palestine. It was disrupted by the advent of the Jewish pioneering enterprise, which sounded the death-knell of this medieval feudal system. In this way the Jews played an objective revolutionary role. Small wonder that it aroused the ire and active opposition of the Arab sheikhs, absentee landowners, money-lenders and Bedouin bandits.

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When considering Jewish land purchases and settlements, four factors should be borne in mind:

1. Most of the land purchases involved large tracts belonging to absentee owners. (Virtually all of the Jezreel Valley, for example, belonged in 1897 to only two persons: the eastern portion to the Turkish Sultan, and the western part to the richest banker in Syria, Sursuk “the Greek.”)
2. Most of the land purchased had not been cultivated previously because it was swampy, rocky, sandy or, for some other reason, regarded as uncultivable. This is supported by the findings of the Peel Commission Report (p. 242): “The Arab charge that the Jews have obtained too large a proportion of good land cannot be maintained. Much of the land now carrying orange groves was sand dunes or swamp and uncultivated when it was purchased . . . there was at the time at least of the earlier sales little evidence that the owners possessed either the resources or training needed to develop the land.” (1937)
3. While, for this reason, the early transactions did not involve unduly large sums of money, the price of land began to rise as Arab landowners took advantage of the growing demand for rural tracts. The resulting infusion of capital into the Palestinian economy had noticeable beneficial effects on the standard of living of all the inhabitants.
4. The Jewish pioneers introduced new farming methods which improved the soil and crop cultivation and were soon emulated by Arab farmers.

The following figures show land purchases by the three leading Jewish land-buying organizations and by individual Jews between 1880 and 1935.

(vide online)

From the above table it will be seen that the proportion of the land purchased from large (usually absentee) owners ranged from about 50 to 90 per cent.

“The total area of land in Jewish possession at the end of June 1947,” writes A. Granott in The Land System in Palestine (Eyre and Spottiswoode, London, 1952, p. 278), “amounted to 1,850,000 dunams, of this 181,100 dunams had been obtained through concessions from the Palestinian Government, and about 120,000 dunams had been acquired from Churches, from foreign companies, from the Government otherwise than by concessions, and so forth. It was estimated that 1,000,000 dunams and more, or 57 per cent, had been acquired from large Arab landowners, and if to this we add the lands acquired from the Government, Churches, and foreign companies, the percentage will amount to seventy-three. From the fellaheen there had been purchased about 500,000 dunams, or 27 per cent, of the total acquired. The result of Jewish land acquisitions, at least to a considerable part, was that properties which had been in the hands of large and medium owners were converted into holding of small peasants.”


(full article online )

Land Ownership in Palestine, 1880–1948 | survival

lessons.myjli.com

 

[Sixties Fan]

 

[Sixties Fan]

 

[Sixties Fan]

In June 1936, a significant section of Jaffa was demolished due to the need for British security forces to combat growing Arab terror.

But there was a side concern: what to do with now homeless Arabs?

Here is an academic article on the matter.

And here is a parliamentary question from December:

DEMOLITIONS, JAFFA (RE-HOUSING).
HC Deb 16 December 1936 vol 318

22. Colonel WEDGWOOD asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has authorised the expenditure of £15,000 which has been assigned from Palestine revenues to build a village for the Jaffa Arabs evicted from that town; and whether anything similar is being done for the Jaffa Jews who were forced to leave Jaffa and live elsewhere?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE The Palestine Government has been authorised to expend £15,000 on the erection of houses, for which a suitable rent will be charged, to accommodate 100 Arab families rendered homeless by the special demolitions in Jaffa undertaken by Government in the circumstances explained in my reply to a question in the House on 24th June by the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallaeher). I understand that in consultation with the appropriate Jewish bodies the Palestine Government has agreed to contribute about £5,000 towards the cost of maintenance and rehabilitation of Jewish refugees in Tel-Aviv from Jaffa and elsewhere.

Colonel WEDGWOOD Seeing that the Jewish refugees from Jaffa outnumber the Arab refugees by about 20 to one, will the right hon. Gentleman make representations to the Palestine Government that the rebuilding which they are doing for Arab refugees should be paralleled by rebuilding for the Jewish refugees?
Mr. ORMSBY-GORE I do not think that I can accept the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's figures, nor can I accept his description of these particular Arabs as refugees. In the military interests, and in the interests of peace and order in Jaffa, it was decided to dynamite two lines through the town. The Royal Engineers blew up the houses, and I think the Palestine Government have the duty of rehousing these people elsewhere, as they are now doing.

Colonel WEDGWOOD Does the right hon. Gentleman not see that the Jews who were driven out of Palestine owing to the danger of assassination have exactly the same case for rehousing, with Government assistance, as the Arabs?
Mr. ORMSBY-GORE Then it would be the duty of the Government to re-house almost everybody who have been removed or have removed themselves during a period of disturbance and disorder which we all regret. I cannot commit the Government to that.

Colonel WEDGWOOD I am sorry to be persistent, but is it possible now for the Jews to go back to Jaffa with safety, or is the protection still inadequate?
Mr. ORMSBY-GORE I hope that when we know what the policy of the future is to be, when we have the report 2438of the Royal Commission and the whole Palestine question is cleared up, it may be possible for Jews and Arabs to live as they have up to this year in friendly accord in Jaffa.

Photos:

Arab Rights and Jewish Rights: Jaffa 1936

In June 1936, a significant section of Jaffa was demolished due to the need for British security forces to combat growing Arab terror. But t...

myrightword.blogspot.com

 

[Sixties Fan]

 

[Sixties Fan]

Hebron: The Aftermath of the 1929 Massacre

The Jewish community of Hebron is the heir of the ancient legacy that connects the Jews to their holy city. They are returnees who came back in the aftermath of the expulsions of Hebron’s Jews to build the future.

www.israelunwired.com