Zone1 The Moscow massacre and etical considerations

[Tommy Tainant]

The west seems to be tying itself in knots over this massacre. Terrorists killed over 100 people so the world rushes to condemn it.
And yet a few miles down the road and people are being murdered every day by Russia. There is a more nuanced reaction to that based on partisan political lines.
Much of the world condemns that but the right justifies the slaughter.
IS has claimed the killings. But if it had been Ukraine that carried it out would the reaction be any different ? Would people condemn the killers or point out to Putin that you reap what you sow ?
The victms are dead whatever. Would the dozy Sunak be able to change his stance from sympathy to whatever depending on the perpetrators ?
Is it self interest ? A Ukranian death squad is unlikely to bomb Paris or London but these muzzie nutters could strike anywhere.
So to Russia, we are happy to see your citizens slaughtered in Crimea but we are a bit sniffy about them being killed in Moscow.
Worth noting also that America facs a Moscow type massacre every day . But nothing gets done,

Moscow concert hall attack: death toll raised to 137 as White House says Ukraine had âno involvement whatsoeverââ as it happened

Russians lay flowers and light candles outside Crocus concert hall on day of mourning

www.theguardian.com

 

[Auld Phart]

etical?

 

[Dekster]

The west seems to be tying itself in knots over this massacre. Terrorists killed over 100 people so the world rushes to condemn it.
And yet a few miles down the road and people are being murdered every day by Russia. There is a more nuanced reaction to that based on partisan political lines.
Much of the world condemns that but the right justifies the slaughter.
IS has claimed the killings. But if it had been Ukraine that carried it out would the reaction be any different ? Would people condemn the killers or point out to Putin that you reap what you sow ?
The victms are dead whatever. Would the dozy Sunak be able to change his stance from sympathy to whatever depending on the perpetrators ?
Is it self interest ? A Ukranian death squad is unlikely to bomb Paris or London but these muzzie nutters could strike anywhere.
So to Russia, we are happy to see your citizens slaughtered in Crimea but we are a bit sniffy about them being killed in Moscow.
Worth noting also that America facs a Moscow type massacre every day . But nothing gets done,

Moscow concert hall attack: death toll raised to 137 as White House says Ukraine had âno involvement whatsoeverââ as it happened

Russians lay flowers and light candles outside Crocus concert hall on day of mourning

www.theguardian.com

ISIS released body cam videos showing they were the ones who did it. I am not sure why anybody would doubt it at this point. People generally condemn terrorist attacks on civilians going about their daily lives so no I don't see any ethical problems with people doing it in this case too.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

ISIS released body cam videos showing they were the ones who did it. I am not sure why anybody would doubt it at this point. People generally condemn terrorist attacks on civilians going about their daily lives so no I don't see any ethical problems with people doing it in this case too.

But what if the Ukranians did it ? Or funded it . or facilitated it ? Would they be justified ?

 

[FranklinRoosevelt_FTW]

simply because ISIL is a so-called terror group. They have different motivations, compared to an organized army. That’s why there’s a different reaction.

By the way, I don’t like using that word terrorist. It is politically motivated. Why not just call ISIL what they are …criminals, bad guys, etc

Isil intentionally wants to wipe out civilians. And there is a big difference in their actions as well like how they cut off peoples heads on television. Or they put people in a cage and drown them on television. These are not things that the Ukrainian or Russian military engages in at least not publicly. You simply don’t see a western politician holding the decapitated head of an individual like you do with ISIL members.

Just understand that is the major difference. ISIL publicly celebrates the most brutal execution methods we can imagine.


When one of those types of groups like isil or aq commits a so-called terror attack the whole world condemns it. It’s an opportunity for people to realize that we do actually have a common enemy. Whether it’s Ukraine, Russia, or the USA we all have a common enemy in aq type groups.

Aq types reject the very type of western living that we see in Russia, Ukraine, and the USA. For example women not covering their hair or going to a Christian church.

That is why the world is mourning for the Russian people today.

You see what Russia is doing in Ukraine is similar to what the USA did in Iraq. It’s part of the conventional wars of history fought by organized militaries with some semblance of laws.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

simply because ISIL is a so-called terror group. They have different motivations, compared to an organized army. That’s why there’s a different reaction.

By the way, I don’t like using that word terrorist. It is politically motivated. Why not just call ISIL what they are …criminals, bad guys, etc

Isil intentionally wants to wipe out civilians. And there is a big difference in their actions as well like how they cut off peoples heads on television. Or they put people in a cage and drown them on television. These are not things that the Ukrainian or Russian military engages in at least not publicly. You simply don’t see a western politician holding the decapitated head of an individual like you do with ISIL members.

Just understand that is the major difference. ISIL publicly celebrates the most brutal execution methods we can imagine.


When one of those types of groups like isil or aq commits a so-called terror attack the whole world condemns it. It’s an opportunity for people to realize that we do actually have a common enemy. Whether it’s Ukraine, Russia, or the USA we all have a common enemy in aq type groups.

Aq types reject the very type of western living that we see in Russia, Ukraine, and the USA. For example women not covering their hair or going to a Christian church.

That is why the world is mourning for the Russian people today.

You see what Russia is doing in Ukraine is similar to what the USA did in Iraq. It’s part of the conventional wars of history fought by organized militaries with some semblance of laws.

You givethe west a huge pass. Western invasions created all of these groups. There is no moral superiority.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Thanks to the mod who cleaned up this thread.

 

[MarcATL]

Excellent points OP.

 

[FranklinRoosevelt_FTW]

But what if the Ukranians did it ? Or funded it . or facilitated it ? Would they be justified ?

But officially Ukraine and Russia don’t do that kind of stuff.

You givethe west a huge pass. Western invasions created all of these groups. There is no moral superiority.

The black man, the Jew, the Indian and the white man all have engaged in invasions, expansionist warfare and practiced the slave trade.

Just going by the fax Tommy. The west and if you include Russia in that which you should doesn’t necessarily get a pass. But there are strict definitions here and the way of life of the ISIL member is entirely different from that of a western military personnel.

Course there’s a moral superiority. ISIL members will burn women just for not covering their hair. That doesn’t exist in Russia, Ukraine, or the United States of America. Also isil has video game style public executions basically the kind of things that the Vikings did to people. It’s like the torture execution of the week every week ISIL would put out a different torture execution video and it was available to see various on websites.

To be fair the Mexican drug cartels also have pretty barbaric execution videos They post online but even they are not on the level of ISIL

 

[FranklinRoosevelt_FTW]

Even if isil was a creation of some countries intelligence service, they have still been able to recruit people from all over the world who subscribed to their ideology. So that’s a problem.


And to the point of the original poster, somebody who gets killed whether by a bomb dropped by the so-called west, or if they are decapitated with a rusty knife on tv by an aq member…. they are both dead. And it is very unfortunate in both cases. There have been cases of western military personnel attacking civilians, and that is unfortunate. But even if we can concede this point there is the following.

It is simply the massive difference in how ISIL governs themselves compared to any country in the western world, or even the eastern world. Isil destroys Christian churches, and is against freedom of religion. That doesn’t exist in Russia or the USA. There is freedom of religion in Russia and the USA. Women were sold as slaves in slave markets in Iraq and Syria when they were under the control of ISIL. That practice of slavery has long been abolished in the western world.

So attempting to make a moral comparison between ISIL and the west is dishonest. People who make that comparison either don’t know any better, or they are mentally ill, or they are supporters of ISIL.

 

[FranklinRoosevelt_FTW]

Tommy Tainant looking forward to your civilized retort Tom. Hopefully you’re not here for personal attacks.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

But officially Ukraine and Russia don’t do that kind of stuff.

The black man, the Jew, the Indian and the white man all have engaged in invasions, expansionist warfare and practiced the slave trade.

Just going by the fax Tommy. The west and if you include Russia in that which you should doesn’t necessarily get a pass. But there are strict definitions here and the way of life of the ISIL member is entirely different from that of a western military personnel.

Course there’s a moral superiority. ISIL members will burn women just for not covering their hair. That doesn’t exist in Russia, Ukraine, or the United States of America. Also isil has video game style public executions basically the kind of things that the Vikings did to people. It’s like the torture execution of the week every week ISIL would put out a different torture execution video and it was available to see various on websites.

To be fair the Mexican drug cartels also have pretty barbaric execution videos They post online but even they are not on the level of ISIL

Ive seen pictures of Ukraine and Gaza after the humane western style assaults. Your narrative is fantasy.

 

[FranklinRoosevelt_FTW]

See post 10

Ive seen pictures of Ukraine and Gaza after the humane western style assaults. Your narrative is fantasy.

 

[rippy38]

But what if the Ukranians did it ? Or funded it . or facilitated it ? Would they be justified ?

If so, then Putin should consider going to war with and invading Ukraine.

Oh wait

Nevermind...

 

[Tommy Tainant]

If so, then Putin should consider going to war with and invading Ukraine.

Oh wait

Nevermind...

The image of war would pick up with such a humane force taking part.

 

[Dekster]

But what if the Ukranians did it ? Or funded it . or facilitated it ? Would they be justified ?

I personally think you are never justified targeting innocent civilians but my morals and $3.50 will get me a McDouble from McDonalds and nothing more.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

I personally think you are never justified targeting innocent civilians but my morals and $3.50 will get me a McDouble from McDonalds and nothing more.

I must admit that I dont kmow how to feel about it. I veer between caring and not giving a shit. Its a com[licated world.

 

[Dekster]

I must admit that I dont kmow how to feel about it. I veer between caring and not giving a shit. Its a com[licated world.

I can feel sympathy for Russians without feeling it for their government in the same way I can for Israel's innocent victims in Gaza without feeling it for Hamas.

 

[petro]

etical?

Proof reading and the edit function confuse and frighten Progtards.

 

[ESay]

But what if the Ukranians did it ? Or funded it . or facilitated it ? Would they be justified ?

It seems not. Deliberate targeting civilians is a war crime. Even in the context of the ongoing war it can hardly be justified.