The Market Wants More Stimulus

[expat_panama]

All I am saying is (and I challenge anyone to refute this)...that Wall Street firms made a freaking killing off of the first 2 stimulus windfalls....

That's the party line and it's bogus. We've all heard party hacks pass along this fantasy without any data, foundation in fact, or even names with dates --and when the adults in the room refuse to believe it somehow it's us grownups that have to get numbers to "refute this".

Welcome to--

 

[Brutus]

.

I really don't think the market wants to see more stimulus.

An artificial liberal stimulus or bubble will burst making the economy worse( with mal investment) not better. Did we forget the liberal housing stimulus bubble so quickly?

 

[SAT2]

I think you are missing the point. Nobody is talking about more tax cuts, we're talking about not raising taxes by extending the Bush tax cuts. What I think Barry Knapp is saying is that if you don't extend those tax cuts then you're inviting an economic downturn. Continuing those tax cuts is just maintaining the status quo, we're not going to get better economically if we extend them, but we are going to hurt the economy if we don't.

As for preventing a depression, that has never been proven, actually can't be proved. I think a stimulus plan was a good idea, I just think the one the democrats passed was poorly designed, with too much going to their constituents rather than to the most effective programs. I also think it was very poorly managed, and I didn't think it was funny that "some shovel ready projects weren't as shovel ready as we thought". That makes me feel like I was lied to, Obama sold the stimulus bill as an immediate boost to the economy that would create millions of jobs and it wasn't.

If you're talking about extending the Bush tax cuts, with no adjustments at all, you're talking about adding to the deficit far more than a stimulus bill.

Don't get lost in the weeds. The consensus is that without a bailout and stimulus, we'd be in far worse shape than we are now. There is no time machine or alternative universe where we can run your experiment.

"More to their constituents than to the most effective programs". I wonder what that's code for.

The stimulus helped the economy. I'm sorry that a massive bureaucratic program behaved like a massive bureaucratic program and lacked perfect efficiency. Human imperfection, but the alternative is less than palatable.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

The stimulus helped the economy.

That is not possible given that a stimulus stimulates mal-investment. Once the stimulus is withdrawn another recession occurs until the free market puts resources back in their proper places.

 

[SAT2]

A stimulus can't be withdrawn once it's put into the market. You think someone can go around and collect all the dollars?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

A stimulus can't be withdrawn once it's put into the market. You think someone can go around and collect all the dollars?

In fact, the Federal Reserve Bank raises and lowers interest rates all the time to distribute and then withdraw or collect dollars. That is what caused the housing stimulus bubble ,for example. The Fed distributed or created too much money via lower interest rates for the express purpose of stimulating the housing market. Now perhaps you can understand what a stimulus actually is?

 

[SAT2]

A stimulus can't be withdrawn once it's put into the market. You think someone can go around and collect all the dollars?

In fact, the Federal Reserve Bank raises and lowers interest rates all the time to distribute and then withdraw or collect dollars. That is what caused the housing stimulus bubble ,for example. The Fed distributed or created too much money via lower interest rates for the express purpose of stimulating the housing market. Now perhaps you can understand what a stimulus actually is?

Yes, there is a direct link between that action, the action of an alleged free marketeer, and the housing bubble.

A stimulus can take many forms.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Yes, there is a direct link between that action, the action of an alleged free marketeer, and the housing bubble.

obviously government manipulation of a market has nothing to do with the Republican free market

A stimulus can take many forms.

if it is given form by liberal government it is a stimulus bubble of mal investment that can only harm the economy when it bursts. A recession occurs as we wait for the Republican free market to put resources back in their proper places.

 

[SAT2]

Yes, there is a direct link between that action, the action of an alleged free marketeer, and the housing bubble.

obviously government manipulation of a market has nothing to do with the Republican free market

Alan Greenspan, Ed.

A stimulus can take many forms.

if it is given form by liberal government it is a stimulus bubble of mal investment that can only harm the economy when it bursts. A recession occurs as we wait for the Republican free market to put resources back in their proper places.

Yes, if liberals do something, it hurts the market.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Alan Greenspan, Ed.

obviously government manipulation of a market[even by Greenspan] has nothing to do with the Republican free market

Yes, if liberals do something, it hurts the market.

I'm afraid liberals do not understand the economy and so what they do does in fact hurt the economy. You prove this, in effect, by your failure to present an explanation of how liberalism might help the economy.

 

[Ernie S.]

Stimulus Will Hurt Economy in the Long Run, Congressional Budget Office Confirms

by Hans Bader on November 21, 2011
in Economy, Stimulus to Nowhere

The Congressional Budget Office is admitting that the $800 billion stimulus package will indeed hurt the economy in the long run.

In his testimony to the Senate, CBO Director Douglas Elmendorf conceded that the stimulus package would have “a net negative effect on the growth of GDP over 10 years.” In an exchange with Senator Sessions, Elmendorf added that the economic drag from the stimulus will continue in the following decade:

SESSIONS: And in the next 10 years, since you’re carrying that debt and paying interest on it and the stimulus value is long since gone, it would be a continual negative of some effect?

ELMENDORF: Yes, it would represent a drag on the level of GDP beyond that, if no other actions were taken.

LINK

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

stimulus package would have “a net negative effect on the growth of GDP over 10 years.”

Yes, it is something almost impossible for the liberal mind to grasp. If liberal government spending appears to stimulate the economy then why doesn't taxing the economy to pay for that spending appear to destimulate the economy?

Its seems the liberal will lack the ability to understand the entire transaction.

 

[SAT2]

Alan Greenspan, Ed.

obviously government manipulation of a market[even by Greenspan] has nothing to do with the Republican free market

There is no such thing as "the Republican free market". It's just a free market. Like any other melee, destruction is part of the package.

Yes, if liberals do something, it hurts the market.

I'm afraid liberals do not understand the economy and so what they do does in fact hurt the economy. You prove this, in effect, by your failure to present an explanation of how liberalism might help the economy.

We have different goals. I'm interested in humans, you're interested in profits.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

There is no such thing as "the Republican free market".

Actually it is the Republicans who support the free market while Democrats lack the ability to understand how freedom works. Democrats think government action is somehow magical. The best recent example in Obamacare. It was not a Republican free market bill. It was a liberal magical government bill.

It's just a free market. Like any other melee, destruction is part of the package.

what on earth????????????????????

Yes, if liberals do something, it hurts the market.

I'm afraid liberals do not understand the economy and so what they do does in fact hurt the economy. You prove this, in effect, by your failure to present an explanation of how liberalism might help the economy.

We have different goals. I'm interested in humans, you're interested in profits.

It seems you are still very very afraid to explain how a liberal stimulus might help people.
Sadly, having a feeling is not good enough.

 

[SAT2]

There is no such thing as "the Republican free market".

Actually it is the Republicans who support the free market while Democrats lack the ability to understand how freedom works. Democrats think government action is somehow magical. The best recent example in Obamacare. It was not a Republican free market bill. It was a liberal magical government bill.

It's just a free market. Like any other melee, destruction is part of the package.

what on earth????????????????????

Yes, if liberals do something, it hurts the market.

I'm afraid liberals do not understand the economy and so what they do does in fact hurt the economy. You prove this, in effect, by your failure to present an explanation of how liberalism might help the economy.

We have different goals. I'm interested in humans, you're interested in profits.

It seems you are still very very afraid to explain how a liberal stimulus might help people.
Sadly, having a feeling is not good enough.

You're advocating an unfettered free market, right? No government intervention, under any circumstances? Is that right?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

You're advocating an unfettered free market, right? No government intervention, under any circumstances? Is that right?

Please don't be so silly or should I say please don't debate like a liberal? A free market needs much government intervention to work. You need police, courts, laws, regulations, etc.

 

[SAT2]

You're advocating an unfettered free market, right? No government intervention, under any circumstances? Is that right?

Please don't be so silly or should I say please don't debate like a liberal? A free market needs much government intervention to work. You need police, courts, laws, regulations, etc.

So you want the government to provide what, exactly?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

You're advocating an unfettered free market, right? No government intervention, under any circumstances? Is that right?

Please don't be so silly or should I say please don't debate like a liberal? A free market needs much government intervention to work. You need police, courts, laws, regulations, etc.

So you want the government to provide what, exactly?

oh dear Lord I just gave you the list: police courts laws regulations etc.

 

[SAT2]

Please don't be so silly or should I say please don't debate like a liberal? A free market needs much government intervention to work. You need police, courts, laws, regulations, etc.

So you want the government to provide what, exactly?

oh dear Lord I just gave you the list: police courts laws regulations etc.

You may not realize it, but "etc" is not a specific term.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

So you want the government to provide what, exactly?

oh dear Lord I just gave you the list: police courts laws regulations etc.

You may not realize it, but "etc" is not a specific term.

why be so afraid to go with the first four terms???? Do you have any idea what point you are trying to make? Why not just admit you cant explain how a liberal stimulus would help people and then become a Republicans.