The liberal mythology of healthcare being a right

[francoHFW]

Health costs doubled just under Boosh. Finally ACA gives us some contol over health costs and abuses, with much more to come...

Love it.

"Control"

What a joke.

And control is the point of government...that has no business in this.

Yup, corporations have the public's best interests in mind.

Brainwashed idiocy.

 

[The T]

Love it.

"Control"

What a joke.

And control is the point of government...that has no business in this.

Yup, corporations have the public's best interests in mind.

Brainwashed ddiocy.

And so does gubmint and more regulation that is killing the private sector and the free market.

Colour my ass surprised YOU take such tact...

 

[francoHFW]

Too much deregulation leads to cronyism, fraud, scandal, and boom and bust Pubcrappe- only since the 1870's....- big money for insiders, bailouts, suffering and crappy jobs and opportunity for the outsiders.

 

[The T]

Too much deregulation leads to cronyism, fraud, scandal, and boom and bust Pubcrappe- only since the 1870's....- big money for insiders, bailouts, suffering and crappy jobs and opportunity for the outsiders.

You do realize that YOU decribe Obama?

 

[Bfgrn]

Freedom isn't a list of things you can do, it's a state of being unhindered. Political freedom is a state of being unhindered by other people. This is why many of the founders were opposed to the Bill of Rights, and why the ninth amendment was added. The radical claim of the DOI was that governments are created to protect, as much possible, that natural state of freedom.

Even only a couple hundred years later, we seem to have lost the context of why their claim was so revolutionary. They were literally turning the status-quo upside down. Their idea of rights wasn't an explicit list of privileges granted to the people by government (the king). They claimed all freedom for the people and instead defined the power of government to limit that freedom with an explicit list of powers - powers granted to government by the people.

This is why it's so frustrating to hear health care, education, or any other goods and services described as "rights". It obfuscates the profound and novel conception of rights that our country is based on. I don't think it's deliberate. I think what people really mean, when they say "health care is a right", is that we should provide it via government as a taxpayer provided service (like the schools, fire depts, etc...).

And that is my point i guess. Who decides what is unhindered? What you might consider unhindered other might see as obstructionist. For example, you own land that has a river running through it that has enough to feed the farms around him. A farmer nearby wants to use the water to water his crops, but the other farmer who has access to the river says no, just because he can. Somebody's 'freedom' is being hindered.

If your point is that government exists to resolve disputes when rights come into conflict, that's certainly uncontroversial. I agree completely. That's the whole point of having it.

As for the bolded part above. Maybe that is what people really mean. And there's nothing wrong with that...

Obviously, I disagree. Which is why I'm raising a fuss here. When people say one thing, but mean another, it leads to problems. With casual followers of politics, its relatively benign. But for leaders like Bernie Sanders to make such claims is inexcusable. He knows better and is deliberately equivocating on the term to avoid making a real case for government provided health care.

It's generally understood that, as a fundamental purpose, the government is there to protect our rights. So Sanders, and others pursuing this angle, hope to have the "health care is a right" mantra accepted uncritically by voters. Once a majority accept the notion it makes it much easier to push through their plans for centralizing health care under government control. They can do so without proving why it is necessary, or a even good idea, by simply falling back on the (erroneous) assumption that health care is a right.

It's not a right TO YOU

You whine about government and control, then you insist people who honestly believe it IS a right should be silent and controlled to YOUR liking!

 

[francoHFW]

Too much deregulation leads to cronyism, fraud, scandal, and boom and bust Pubcrappe- only since the 1870's....- big money for insiders, bailouts, suffering and crappy jobs and opportunity for the outsiders.

You do realize that YOU decribe Obama?

The dupes somehow believe Obama's goal is the Second Pub Great Depression. Unbelievable. Luckily a disappearing breed...

 

[FactFinder]

The liberal mythology of healthcare being a right

We like to call ourselves "superpower" and exploit our bullshit all over the world yet we cannot take care of our own. F'n sad.

 

[bripat9643]

And that is my point i guess. Who decides what is unhindered? What you might consider unhindered other might see as obstructionist. For example, you own land that has a river running through it that has enough to feed the farms around him. A farmer nearby wants to use the water to water his crops, but the other farmer who has access to the river says no, just because he can. Somebody's 'freedom' is being hindered.

The problem here is water in the river hasn't been assigned an owner. The water in most rivers has a massive body of law governing who has rights to the water. These issues have mostly been worked out already. Where they haven't, it's because leftists who don't believe in private ownership have obstructed the process.

As for the bolded part above. Maybe that is what people really mean. And there's nothing wrong with that...

Wrong. They mean government is obligated to provide them with healthcare the same way it's obligated to put thieves and murderers in jail. Otherwise, why bother with the whole "rights" business?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I think what people really mean, when they say "health care is a right", is that we should provide it via government as a taxpayer provided service (like the schools, fire depts, etc...).

Correct, that’s the context in which it is used; indeed, there is no ‘right’ to healthcare, just as there’s not right to an education or to have your home protected from fire.

That the ACA is being challenged in court is evidence healthcare is not a ‘right.’

The issue is Congressional authority, not individual liberty, given the fact the IM doesn’t ‘force’ anyone to do anything.

 

[FactFinder]

And that is my point i guess. Who decides what is unhindered? What you might consider unhindered other might see as obstructionist. For example, you own land that has a river running through it that has enough to feed the farms around him. A farmer nearby wants to use the water to water his crops, but the other farmer who has access to the river says no, just because he can. Somebody's 'freedom' is being hindered.

The problem here is water in the river hasn't been assigned an owner. The water in most rivers has a massive body of law governing who has rights to the water. These issues have mostly been worked out already. Where they haven't, it's because leftists who don't believe in private ownership have obstructed the process.

As for the bolded part above. Maybe that is what people really mean. And there's nothing wrong with that...

Wrong. They mean government is obligated to provide them with healthcare the same way it's obligated to put thieves and murderers in jail. Otherwise, why bother with the whole "rights" business?

The problem with private ownership is they want to take the boundaries a whole hell of a lot further than they actually own.

 

[bripat9643]

And that is my point i guess. Who decides what is unhindered? What you might consider unhindered other might see as obstructionist. For example, you own land that has a river running through it that has enough to feed the farms around him. A farmer nearby wants to use the water to water his crops, but the other farmer who has access to the river says no, just because he can. Somebody's 'freedom' is being hindered.

The problem here is water in the river hasn't been assigned an owner. The water in most rivers has a massive body of law governing who has rights to the water. These issues have mostly been worked out already. Where they haven't, it's because leftists who don't believe in private ownership have obstructed the process.

As for the bolded part above. Maybe that is what people really mean. And there's nothing wrong with that...

Wrong. They mean government is obligated to provide them with healthcare the same way it's obligated to put thieves and murderers in jail. Otherwise, why bother with the whole "rights" business?

The problem with private ownership is they want to take the boundaries a whole hell of a lot further than they actually own.

That is a problem with government, not private ownership. Do you often try to claim your neighbor's driveway as your property?

 

[FactFinder]

The problem here is water in the river hasn't been assigned an owner. The water in most rivers has a massive body of law governing who has rights to the water. These issues have mostly been worked out already. Where they haven't, it's because leftists who don't believe in private ownership have obstructed the process.



Wrong. They mean government is obligated to provide them with healthcare the same way it's obligated to put thieves and murderers in jail. Otherwise, why bother with the whole "rights" business?

The problem with private ownership is they want to take the boundaries a whole hell of a lot further than they actually own.

That is a problem with government, not private ownership. Do you often try to claim your neighbor's driveway as your property?

Invalid analogy showing your shallowmindedness.

 

[The T]

The problem with private ownership is they want to take the boundaries a whole hell of a lot further than they actually own.

That is a problem with government, not private ownership. Do you often try to claim your neighbor's driveway as your property?

Invalid analogy showing your shallowmindedness.

No it isn't. Why is it Statists feel obligated to obscond with the wealth of others [by force of government] that they should be doing for themselves...in this case healthcare?

 

[dblack]

I think what people really mean, when they say "health care is a right", is that we should provide it via government as a taxpayer provided service (like the schools, fire depts, etc...).

Correct, that’s the context in which it is used; indeed, there is no ‘right’ to healthcare, just as there’s not right to an education or to have your home protected from fire.

That the ACA is being challenged in court is evidence healthcare is not a ‘right.’

The issue is Congressional authority, not individual liberty, given the fact the IM doesn’t ‘force’ anyone to do anything.

You had a good post going there, right up to the last line, which is blatantly untrue. The attempt by congress to have it both ways, to issue a mandate and the claim there will be no criminal penalties (which most of them are no longer emphasizing, realizing how silly it is) is lame sophistry at best.

 

[dblack]

Love it.

"Control"

What a joke.

And control is the point of government...that has no business in this.

Yup, corporations have the public's best interests in mind.

Brainwashed idiocy.

The idiocy is in accepting the false dilemma that we must subjugate ourselves to either government or corporations - while missing the fact that they are rapidly becoming the same thing.

 

[bripat9643]

That is a problem with government, not private ownership. Do you often try to claim your neighbor's driveway as your property?

Invalid analogy showing your shallowmindedness.

What would be a valid analogy?

 

[FactFinder]

That is a problem with government, not private ownership. Do you often try to claim your neighbor's driveway as your property?

Invalid analogy showing your shallowmindedness.

What would be a valid analogy?

Probaly beyond your reach. Looks like an appropriate avatar to me.

 

[bripat9643]

Invalid analogy showing your shallowmindedness.

What would be a valid analogy?

Probaly beyond your reach. Looks like an appropriate avatar to me.

ROFL! In other words, you can't answer the question.

Who do you think you're fooling?

 

[francoHFW]

And control is the point of government...that has no business in this.

Yup, corporations have the public's best interests in mind.

Brainwashed idiocy.

The idiocy is in accepting the false dilemma that we must subjugate ourselves to either government or corporations - while missing the fact that they are rapidly becoming the same thing.

Only gov't prevents corporations from subjugating us (since the Greatest Generation moved on, and unions have been weakened by Reaganism), and only Dem gov't, obviously.

 

[Bfgrn]

The liberal mythology of healthcare being a right

We like to call ourselves "superpower" and exploit our bullshit all over the world yet we cannot take care of our own. F'n sad.

Health care is already a 'right'...if someone without insurance wraps their car around a tree; firemen will pry them out, paramedics will stabilize them, an ambulance will rush them to a hospital, wheel them into ER where doctors will work to save their life. And WE get to pay for it...

Irony...in Iraq, triage doctors performed life saving procedures on American soldiers AND enemy combatants.