The Issue Of The Land

[P F Tinmore]

Professor Azmi Bishara (b. 1956), Israeli Arab, currently living in Qatar:

"There is no "Palestinian nation" When were there any Palestinians?
Until the end of the 19th century, Palestine was the south of 'Greater Syria' another recent invention. There is only an Arab nation!
The word 'Palestine' itself is a colonial invention used by the Romans in order to erase the Jewish identity of Judea and Israel.
Even the 'Palestinian National Charter' recognizes all the Jews living in the region prior to the 1948 war as 'Palestinians'*
Its an intellectual fad, divorced from the concerns of uneducated people."

*The Palestine Liberation Organization original 1964 Covenant:

Article 7. "Jews of Palestinian origin are considered Palestinians if they are willing to live peacefully and loyally in Palestine."

"There is no "Palestinian nation" When were there any Palestinians?

The status of Palestine and the nationality of its inhabitants were finally settled by the Treaty of Lausanne from the perspective of public international law. In a report submitted to the League of Nations, the British government pointed out: “The ratification of the Treaty of Lausanne in Aug., 1924, finally regularised the international status of Palestine.”123 And, thereafter, “Palestine could, at last, obtain a separate nationality.”124

Drawing up the framework of nationality, Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne stated:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipso facto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.”

Henceforth, Palestinian nationality was first founded, according to international law, on 6 August 1924. And “treaty nationality in Palestine runs from that date.”139 The Treaty of Lausanne had transformed the de facto status of Palestinian nationality into de jure existence from the angle of international law.140

The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”

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Virtually all of Palestine's cities and villages predate the Ottoman Empire. Many have histories going back thousands of years. All of the previous citizens (Muslims, Christians, Jews, and others) became Palestinians. The nationality was territorial not religious.

 

[surada]

In 1947, the Jewish people agreed to something the Arabs rejected -- an Arab/Palestine state.

"We extend our hand to all neighboring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighborliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East." - David Ben-Gurion, The Declaration on the establishment of the State of Israel, 14 May 1948

"This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacre and Crusades." -- Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League, on the eve of the 1948 Arab invasion.

The Jewish people's extended hand of peace and good neighborliness were met by bellicosity and genocidal talk of massacre by the Arabs.

I take it that immigrants are welcomed by you.

 

[surada]

In 1947, the Jewish people agreed to something the Arabs rejected -- an Arab/Palestine state.

"We extend our hand to all neighboring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighborliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East." - David Ben-Gurion, The Declaration on the establishment of the State of Israel, 14 May 1948

"This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacre and Crusades." -- Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League, on the eve of the 1948 Arab invasion.

The Jewish people's extended hand of peace and good neighborliness were met by bellicosity and genocidal talk of massacre by the Arabs.

You forget that the Palestinian Muslims and Christians had lived there 2000 years.

I take that you are a supporter of illegal immigrants in the US.

 

[MJB12741]

Kruska said:
There never was one - since Israel made sure of that in 1948 by simply driving out the Arab and Muslim population and claiming all land to be those of a newly founded Israel.
And no Muslim ever occupied Israel - since there was no Israel before 1948, - you nitwit.
But Muslims had been settling in, ruling and cultivating for 1400 years that area - now called Israel.

How do you like that? No Israel until 1948. And here I actually believed this.

The Jewish people as a whole, initially called Hebrews (ʿIvrim), were known as Israelites (Yisreʾelim) from the time of their entrance into the Holy Land to the end of the Babylonian Exile (538 bce

 

[rylah]

You forget that the Palestinian Muslims and Christians had lived there 2000 years.

I take that you are a supporter of illegal immigrants in the US.

There haven't been Muslims nor Islam for 2000 years.

Dog whistling your xenophobic biases,
neither makes the argument.

 

[surada]

Kruska said:
There never was one - since Israel made sure of that in 1948 by simply driving out the Arab and Muslim population and claiming all land to be those of a newly founded Israel.
And no Muslim ever occupied Israel - since there was no Israel before 1948, - you nitwit.
But Muslims had been settling in, ruling and cultivating for 1400 years that area - now called Israel.

How do you like that? No Israel until 1948. And here I actually believed this.

The Jewish people as a whole, initially called Hebrews (ʿIvrim), were known as Israelites (Yisreʾelim) from the time of their entrance into the Holy Land to the end of the Babylonian Exile (538 bce

Before the Jews there were Canaanites, Natufians and Akkadians .

 

[surada]

There haven't been Muslims nor Islam for 2000 years.

Dog whistling your xenophobic biases,
neither makes the argument.

Arabs settled in the Levant long before Islam. Are you familiar with the Akkadian Empire?

 

[rylah]

The status of Palestine and the nationality of its inhabitants were finally settled by the Treaty of Lausanne from the perspective of public international law. In a report submitted to the League of Nations, the British government pointed out: “The ratification of the Treaty of Lausanne in Aug., 1924, finally regularised the international status of Palestine.”123 And, thereafter, “Palestine could, at last, obtain a separate nationality.”124

Drawing up the framework of nationality, Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne stated:

Henceforth, Palestinian nationality was first founded, according to international law, on 6 August 1924. And “treaty nationality in Palestine runs from that date.”139 The Treaty of Lausanne had transformed the de facto status of Palestinian nationality into de jure existence from the angle of international law.140

The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

That's nice, looks like it should make sense....

However, upon checking the quotes in the very first paragraph,
instead of the given sources, only lead to the same
lawyer named Mutaz Qafisheh.

That said, that is not the main weakness of the article,
but the hanging of the entire theory proposed in it
on the Treaty of Lausanne - which doesn't even
mention 'Palestine'.

-------------------

Virtually all of Palestine's cities and villages predate the Ottoman Empire. Many have histories going back thousands of years. All of the previous citizens (Muslims, Christians, Jews, and others) became Palestinians. The nationality was territorial not religious.

Indeed those cities predate the Ottoman and Arab imperialism.
Which is rather an argument for the sovereign title of ethnic minorities
over any majority, inhabiting these cities, at the end of the 19th century.

Nationality is national.

Imperialist societies proselytize and use religion,
to erase cultures of the indigenous nations, they seek to control.
And narrowing down nationality to territorial presence of a majority,
refutes inheritance of Arab refugee and national rights but of land inhabiting.

 

[MJB12741]

Arabs settled in the Levant long before Islam. Are you familiar with the Akkadian Empire?

Eh, got news for you. Akkadians were Not Arabs of any kind. And their land was also stolen land.
The Sumerians said the Akkadians were north and west of them, not south. The only mention of people from what is now Arabia is Dilmun, which was a region in the Persian Gulf (likely Bahrain and Qatar).

 

[surada]

Eh, got news for you. Akkadians were Not Arabs of any kind. And their land was also stolen land.
The Sumerians said the Akkadians were north and west of them, not south. The only mention of people from what is now Arabia is Dilmun, which was a region in the Persian Gulf (likely Bahrain and Qatar).

The Akkadians were from the Arabian peninsula.

Have you been to Bahrain?

 

[rylah]

The Akkadians were from the Arabian peninsula.

Have you been to Bahrain?

Did they speak Arabic?

 

[surada]

Did they speak Arabic?

The Akkadians (or Acadians)

 

[surada]

Did they speak Arabic?

Yes. Gulf Arabic is different from classic Arabic. I'm by no means an expert on dialects.

 

[rylah]

Arabs settled in the Levant long before Islam. Are you familiar with the Akkadian Empire?

Arabs didn't exist long before Islam. Do you mean Arabs now believe to be also the Akkadians who predated them by 2 millennia, beside being the Greek sea people?

That is called cultural imperialism.

 

[surada]

Arabs didn't exist long before Islam.

Do you mean Arabs now believe they're not only the Greek sea people,
but also the Akkadians who predated them by 2 millenia?

That is called cultural imperialism.

The Greek sea people weren't Arabs. They were from the Aegean.

Arabs existed thousands of years before Islam. They traded with Egypt, Mesopotamia, the Levant, East Africa and the Indus Valley.

 

[rylah]

The Greek sea people weren't Arabs. They were from the Aegean.

Arabs existed thousands of years before Islam. They traded with Egypt, Mesopotamia, the Levant, East Africa and the Indus Valley.

Wrong again.

The first mention of Arabs
predates Islam only by about 1200 years,
and refers to them as foreign mercenaries.

Relative to the history of the region, they're late comers.

 

[MJB12741]

Who's land? Consider the facts.


The first appearance of the name "Israel" in the non-Biblical historic record is the Egyptian Merneptah Stele, circa 1200 BCE. During biblical times, two kingdoms occupied the highland zone, the Kingdom of Israel (Samaria) in the north, and the Kingdom of Judah in the south. The Kingdom of Israel was conquered by the Neo-Assyrian Empire (circa 722 BCE), and the Kingdom of Judah by the Neo-Babylonian Empire (586 BCE). Initially exiled to Babylon, upon the defeat of the Neo-Babylonian Empire by the Achaemenid Empire under Cyrus the Great (538 BCE), many of the Jewish exiles returned to Jerusalem, building the Second Temple.

The Nabataeans were nomads who moved into territory vacated by the Edomites – Semitic-speakers who settled the region centuries before them. Their early inscriptions were in Aramaic but gradually switched to their spoken Nabataean Arabic, thus producing some of the earliest clear Arabic texts. The Nabataean alphabet was adopted by Arabs to the south, and evolved into modern Arabic script around the 4th century. This is attested by Safaitic inscriptions (beginning in the 1st century BC) and the many Arabic personal names in Nabataean inscriptions. From about the 2nd century BC, a few inscriptions from Qaryat al-Faw reveal a dialect no longer considered proto-Arabic, but pre-classical Arabic. Five Syriac inscriptions mentioning Arabs have been found at Sumatar Harabesi northeast of Harran, one of which dates to the 2nd century AD.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Palestinians, and others, call Israel "48" as in 1948 occupied Palestine. Also, maps show Palestine without Israel.

Israel occupied 78% of Palestine in 1948 and has never obtained clear title to that territory.

Israel occupied 78% of Palestine in 1948 and has never obtained clear title to that territory.

They own even more now. How much does "Palestine" own?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israel occupied 78% of Palestine in 1948 and has never obtained clear title to that territory.

They own even more now. How much does "Palestine" own?

All of it. Israel owns nothing.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

This is more or less true. However, some key elements were left out.

Two governing principles formed the core of the mandate system: non-annexation of the territory and its administration as a "sacred trust of civilisation" to develop the territory for the benefit of its native people.[ii] The mandate system differed fundamentally from the protectorate system which preceded it, in that the mandatory power's obligations to the inhabitants of the territory were supervised by a third party: the League of Nations.[29​

​

According to Matz, "Primarily, two elements formed the core of the Mandate System, the principle of non-annexation of the territory on the one hand and its administration as a "sacred trust of civilisation" on the other ... The principle of administration as a "sacred trust of civilisation" was designed to prevent a practice of imperial exploitation of the mandated territory in contrast to former colonial habits. Instead, the Mandatory's administration should assist in developing the territory for the well-being of its native people."[28]​

It is implied that the Mandate owned the territory. That is not true. The Mandate had no territory or sovereignty. The Treaty of Lausanne ceded the territory to Palestine and the native people held the sovereignty inside their territory.

This changes the implied history of the territory. It is illegal to acquire territory by conquest i.e. the threat or use of force. After the 1948 war, Palestine was still Palestine. (see the 1949 Armistice Agreements) However, Palestine was occupied. No Palestinian territory has ever been ceded to a foreign entity.

According to Matz, "Primarily, two elements formed the core of the Mandate System, the principle of non-annexation of the territory on the one hand and its administration as a "sacred trust of civilization" on the other

I see the issue. Islam and civilization can't coexist.

The Mandate had no territory or sovereignty. The Treaty of Lausanne ceded the territory to Palestine and the native people held the sovereignty inside their territory.

The Jewish people used it to create Israel. The Arab people fucked it up and created failure.

After the 1948 war, Palestine was still Palestine. (see the 1949 Armistice Agreements)

The Agreements that were signed by Israelis, Egyptians and Jordanians without a single
Palestinian signature to be found. What do they show?