The Islam Thread

[Dr Grump]

My post discusses Islam's stated mission to kill infidels. Bringing up The Crusades (incorrectly) merely deflects the issue raised, since these were not the result of Biblical proclamations, but in fact to take back Christian lands from Muslim invaders.

They were Jewish lands, not Christian...

 

[jillian]

That's an interesting perspective, and not entirely innacurate (a good lie never is), but you completely avoided the issue raised.

Why is it you extremist toons who always call people liars when you're unable to respond to a point? Amusing if it weren't so tiresome.

I didn't avoid the issue. Your purported point was what a violent religion Islam is and how it has no tolerance for other faiths. I pointed out, ACCURATELY, that Islam, historically, has had more tolerance, BY FAR, than Christianity..... at least until fairly recently.

And if you don't know that the Hebrew Bible, or the Old Testament, pre-dates the Christian Bible, or New Testament, by 4,000 years, then I'd say you need to get information. Or aren't you aware that the Last Supper was a Passover Sedar?

 

[jillian]

They were Jewish lands, not Christian...

Ayup.... would be interesting to know how Israel and the mid-eastern lands were "Christian lands" but for the Crusades.

 

[mattskramer]

That would be fine, except Islam was created by Mohamed for his personal power trip, and as an excuse to kill the Jews that he hated, as well as anyone else who refused to believe his false prophecy.

Pull a few select passages from the Koran and pull a few select passages from the Bible.
Some of these passages seem to be very similar in meaning.

Compare http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/koran.html with http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/int/long.html

(Yawn) As far as I’m concerned the difference is just in the number. It comes down to bean counting. One religion is not that much superior to another.

 

[Annie]

Pull a few select passages from the Koran and pull a few select passages from the Bible.
Some of these passages seem to be very similar in meaning.

Compare http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/koran.html with http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/int/long.html

(Yawn) As far as I’m concerned the difference is just in the number. It comes down to bean counting. One religion is not that much superior to another.

I'm glad you feel that way. You and/or your children have been oppressed by the Christian/Judeo ethics for your lifetime. My guess, you'll get the chance to experience the liberation of Islam, I hope you adapt well.

 

[nt250]

Why is it you extremist toons who always call people liars when you're unable to respond to a point? Amusing if it weren't so tiresome.

Calling people "extremist toons" isn't any better. And liberals have cornered the market on calling people liars. Or do I need to post an Ann Coulter column as proof?

I didn't avoid the issue. Your purported point was what a violent religion Islam is and how it has no tolerance for other faiths. I pointed out, ACCURATELY, that Islam, historically, has had more tolerance, BY FAR, than Christianity..... at least until fairly recently.

That is not accurate. All through out Islams history, not just recently, Islam has had NO tolerance for other faiths AT ALL. At best non-Muslims get to pay a tax, at worst they have been slaughtered or enslaved.

And if you don't know that the Hebrew Bible, or the Old Testament, pre-dates the Christian Bible, or New Testament, by 4,000 years, then I'd say you need to get information. Or aren't you aware that the Last Supper was a Passover Sedar?

I'll agree with you on this one. It's pretty appalling how ignorant the average Christian is about Jews. I once had a Christian man ask me why a Jew would care about a prayer mentioning Jesus Christ at their kids high school graduation. Totally clueless.

 

[mattskramer]

I'm glad you feel that way. You and/or your children have been oppressed by the Christian/Judeo ethics for your lifetime. My guess, you'll get the chance to experience the liberation of Islam, I hope you adapt well.

Did I ever claim that I have been severely oppressed or liberated by any religious ethic in America?

No. Aside from the “Blue Laws” and subtle proselytizing I have not been personally oppressed by the Christian/Judeo ethic. Oh. Christian busybodies seemingly bent on getting me to “see the light” and convert to Christianity have pestered me. I read the Bible for myself. I then read commentary by Atheists and Christian apologists. I still have questions that have not been answered to my satisfaction – particularly in the area of apparent contradictions.

I have not been oppressed by the Islamic ethics either. I introduced myself to a couple of foreign-looking people. They said that they were Muslim. We talked for a few minutes but it was the Muslims who walked away this time. I read the Koran. I read commentary by those people who were opposed to and critical of Islam. I read from Muslim apologists. I still have unanswered question concerning Islamic statements and practices.

I have yet to knowingly and personally meet any Jews. That has basically been the extent of my personal experience with people from the three groups (Christians, Jews, or Muslims).

 

[jillian]

Calling people "extremist toons" isn't any better. And liberals have cornered the market on calling people liars. Or do I need to post an Ann Coulter column as proof?

Ann Couter IS a liar and a PUBLIC (read that again....) PUBLIC figure. It is NOT the same as calling a fellow poster a liar. And, frankly, I've lost my patience with it.

That is not accurate. All through out Islams history, not just recently, Islam has had NO tolerance for other faiths AT ALL. At best non-Muslims get to pay a tax, at worst they have been slaughtered or enslaved.

Again, not true... the sephardic jews did far better under Islamic rule than the Ashkenazi did under Christianity. That isn't to say Islam was perfect (there were, of course, abuses) or that life under Christians was all bad... but I've yet to meet a Sephardic Jew whose grandmother, at 5 years old, had to huddle in a closet on Sunday nights because the locals were busy breaking the windows of her home while calling her and her family "Christ-killers".

I'll agree with you on this one. It's pretty appalling how ignorant the average Christian is about Jews. I once had a Christian man ask me why a Jew would care about a prayer mentioning Jesus Christ at their kids high school graduation. Totally clueless.

I know exactly what you're talking about. I think we can agree that it's really important to understand other beliefs, faiths, ideas, to the extent possible for an outsider. It certainly benefits us.

 

[jillian]

I have yet to knowingly and personally meet any Jews. That has basically been the extent of my personal experience with people from the three groups (Christians, Jews, or Muslims).

Er.... where on earth do you live that you've never personally known a Jew?!?!?!

 

[mattskramer]

All through out Islams history, not just recently, Islam has had NO tolerance for other faiths AT ALL. At best non-Muslims get to pay a tax, at worst they have been slaughtered or enslaved.

I don’t know why I keep knocking down erroneous extremist absolutist statements like this one. It seems as though no one acknowledges my factual rebuttals. Anyway. I’ll do it again. First of all, notice nt250’s use of superlative or absolutist terms and phrases: All through out Islams history, not just recently, Islam has had NO tolerance for other faiths AT ALL. Then he practically contradicts himself by saying that At best non-Muslims get to pay a tax... That does denote toleration at least a minimal degree.

Read the following:

http://arabworld.nitle.org/texts.php?module_id=2&reading_id=62&sequence=7

Historically, while the early expansion and conquests spread Islamic rule, Muslims did not try to imposetheir religion on others or force them to convert. As "People of the Book," Jews and Christians were regarded as protected people ( dhimmi ), who were permitted to retain and practice their religions, be led by their own religious leaders, and be guided by their own religious laws and customs.

The Constitution of Medina accepted the coexistence of Muslims, Jews, and Christians. Muhammad discussed and debated with, and granted freedom of religious thought and practice to, the Jews and Christians, setting a precedent for peaceful and cooperative interreligious relations.

http://www.rferl.org/specials/religion/archive/islam-2.asp

Experts cite historic examples where Muslim lands were a relatively safe place to be for Christian or Jewish minorities. They point out that, in general, non-Muslim communities remained intact in nearly all the areas under Muslim rule.


http://www.al-shia.com/html/eng/books/spread-of-islam/02.html

In A.D. 712, the Arab leader, Muhammad bin Qasim, conquered Sind and set up Muslim rule; the earliest converts were mostly Hindus of low caste who left Hinduism believing that the Muslim faith offered them equality. When Muhammad bin Qasim wrote to his uncle requesting guidance regarding the natives of Sind, this is the reply he received: "It appears that the chief inhabitants of Brahmanabad had petitioned to be allowed to repair the temple of Budh and pursue their religion. As they have made submission and agreed to pay taxes to the Caliph, nothing more can be properly required from them. They have been taken under our protection, and we cannot in any way stretch out our hands upon their lives or property. Permission is given to them to worship their Gods. Nobody must be forbidden or prevented from following his own religion."

http://www.discoverislam.com/poster.asp?poster=DIP2004_19&page=1

“For instance, prior to the Spanish Inquisition, Jews and Christians lived and prospered in Spain for centuries under Muslim rule. Another well known example is when Omar, the second successor to Prophet Muhammad, entered Jerusalem. He refused to pray inside the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. He was concerned that some overzealous Muslim in the future might destroy the Church and build a Mosque in his honor.”

 

[nt250]

Ann Couter IS a liar and a PUBLIC (read that again....) PUBLIC figure. It is NOT the same as calling a fellow poster a liar. And, frankly, I've lost my patience with it.

Ann Coulter has never been caught in a lie. She's made mistakes, and she's always admitted them and corrected them. But they've been minor and fairly petty.

Again, not true... the sephardic jews did far better under Islamic rule than the Ashkenazi did under Christianity. That isn't to say Islam was perfect (there were, of course, abuses) or that life under Christians was all bad... but I've yet to meet a Sephardic Jew whose grandmother, at 5 years old, had to huddle in a closet on Sunday nights because the locals were busy breaking the windows of her home while calling her and her family "Christ-killers".

It is true. You can find examples of anything to prove a narrow point, but to say that Muslims are more tolerant of other religions than Christianity is, which is what you said, is not a fact.

I know exactly what you're talking about. I think we can agree that it's really important to understand other beliefs, faiths, ideas, to the extent possible for an outsider. It certainly benefits us.

It would certainly benefit the Western world to understand how horrible Islam really is. Too many people have no idea how bad it is. But they defend it anyway because they think it's just another religion.

 

[glockmail]

They were Jewish lands, not Christian...

The Muslims took over what is now known as the Middle East, then proceeded north up to southern Europe. europeans, especially Spain, re-grouped and fought back, drove them out of Christain Europe and continued chasing them out of parts of the formerly Jewish Middle East.

 

[mattskramer]

Ann Coulter has never been caught in a lie. She's made mistakes, and she's always admitted them and corrected them.

Hmmm. Interesting "cop-out" for lack of a better description. Okay. How do you catch someone telling a lie versus making a mistake? The only thing that the accused one has to do is say, "Oh. I made a mistake" and all is forgiven. It sounds almost like you are splitting hairs with a little bit of Clintonese to me.

 

[glockmail]

Why is it you extremist toons who always call people liars when you're unable to respond to a point? Amusing if it weren't so tiresome.

I didn't avoid the issue. Your purported point was what a violent religion Islam is and how it has no tolerance for other faiths. I pointed out, ACCURATELY, that Islam, historically, has had more tolerance, BY FAR, than Christianity..... at least until fairly recently.

And if you don't know that the Hebrew Bible, or the Old Testament, pre-dates the Christian Bible, or New Testament, by 4,000 years, then I'd say you need to get information. Or aren't you aware that the Last Supper was a Passover Sedar?

I didn't call you a liar, merely that you believe the lies about Islam and ‘violent Christendom’, as you demonstrated for us here again.

The fact is that Islam has always been spread by the sword. It is written in the Koran. Christianity has never been spread by the sword, inspite of the historical lies that you have been told about “The Crusades”, as these were to push the Muslims out of occupied Christian Europe.

In contemporary terms, “The Bible” refers to the Christian Bible, the first five books which are the Jewish Torah.

 

[glockmail]

Pull a few select passages from the Koran and pull a few select passages from the Bible.
Some of these passages seem to be very similar in meaning.

Compare http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/koran.html with http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/int/long.html

(Yawn) As far as I’m concerned the difference is just in the number. It comes down to bean counting. One religion is not that much superior to another.

Interesting. And Damning. The passages from the Old Testament show God's wrath on evil, and those in the Koran are instructions, supposedly from Allah, for humans to commit acts of evil, many based on a man's sexual desires.

Any guess what God will do to these followers of Allah? You shouldn't have to, if you had read the former.

 

[jillian]

I didn't call you a liar, merely that you believe the lies about Islam and ‘violent Christendom’, as you demonstrated for us here again.

When you accuse someone of lying... you are calling them a liar.

The fact is that Islam has always been spread by the sword. It is written in the Koran. Christianity has never been spread by the sword, inspite of the historical lies that you have been told about “The Crusades”, as these were to push the Muslims out of occupied Christian Europe.

Occupied Europe?!?!?!?! Jerusalem was part of Christian Europe?!?!?! Please read:

The Crusades were a series of military campaigns conducted in the name of Christendom[1] and usually sanctioned by the Pope.[2] They were of a religious character, combining pilgrimage with militarism. When originally conceptualized, the aim was to recapture Jerusalem and the Holy Land from the Muslims while supporting the Byzantine Empire against the "ghazwat" of the Seljuq [3] expansion into Anatolia. The fourth crusade however was diverted and resulted in the conquest of Constantinople. Later crusades were launched against various targets for a mixture of religious, economic, and political reasons, such as the Albigensian Crusade, the Aragonese Crusade, and the Northern Crusades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade

In contemporary terms, “The Bible” refers to the Christian Bible, the first five books which are the Jewish Torah.

The New Testament isn't the "bible" to anyone who isn't Christian. And thanks for telling me what the Torah is. *rolling eyes*

 

[jillian]

Ann Coulter has never been caught in a lie. She's made mistakes, and she's always admitted them and corrected them. But they've been minor and fairly petty.

That's too funny! The Coultergeist has been caught in more lies than you can shake a stick at... not that you'd ever read anything that pointed out those lies or believe it if you did.

It is true. You can find examples of anything to prove a narrow point, but to say that Muslims are more tolerant of other religions than Christianity is, which is what you said, is not a fact.

My point was self-evident. You can't focus solely on Islam when talking about violence. More blood has been shed in the name of religion than for any other purpose.

It would certainly benefit the Western world to understand how horrible Islam really is. Too many people have no idea how bad it is. But they defend it anyway because they think it's just another religion.

Have you read the Koran? Since you're so expert and all.

 

[mattskramer]

The fact is that Islam has always been spread by the sword. It is written in the Koran. Christianity has never been spread by the sword, inspite of the historical lies that you have been told about “The Crusades”, as these were to push the Muslims out of occupied Christian Europe.

There are more superlatives again: Islam has always been spread by the sword.

Look at post number 70 in this thread. Read the links. There were times in which for a time and for a few people, there was not conversion to by the sword. People living on land under rule by Muslims were not forced to convert.

Christianity has never been spread by the sword…

Give me your perspective on the Salem witch trials, “Manifest Destiny” and the Spanish Inquisition. It seems to me that some people had to profess Christianity and behave accordingly or be executed as witches. They had to convert to Christianity – the religion of the European immigrants - or be shoved further to the west and out of the way. They had to convert to Catholicism in Spain or possibly be executed. (Wow. Read the sentencing phase on the Spanish Inquisition according to the wikipedia web site.)

 

[Dr Grump]

The Muslims took over what is now known as the Middle East, then proceeded north up to southern Europe. europeans, especially Spain, re-grouped and fought back, drove them out of Christain Europe and continued chasing them out of parts of the formerly Jewish Middle East.

Exactly, they were Jewish lands...then Christian, then Muslim, then Christian, then Muslim, then Jewish!

 

[Dr Grump]

Occupied Europe?!?!?!?! Jerusalem was part of Christian Europe?!?!?! Please read:

Spain was occupied by the Moors, but that's not what the crusades were about....