The Islam Thread

[Dr Grump]

I take back the blog comment when it comes to you and Jillian. I was pretty much using an editorial you to describe what I see as the classic liberal poster, so if you and Jillian don't use blogs, then I apologize for lumping you in with the rest of what I consider classic liberal arguments.

But I have seen it, and I've seen it many times. It's really infuriating to see some holier-than-thou liberal go off the deep end whenever someone posts an article from News Max or Ann Coulter or anything that a liberal can object to simply because of it's source, and then see that same poster post a link to the most left wing nutjob Tin Foil Hat Brigade bullshit on the internet.

But I apologize to you and Jillian for saying you rely on blogs or other peoples opinions to back up your own opinions. I haven't been here long enough to be able to claim either of you do anything on a regular basis.

But you are a liberal. :funnyface Just kidding.:nine:

I'm just as guilty as putting conservatives all in the same place.

I must say though, seriously, on all the sites I visit it is predominantly - by a huge margin - conservatives who post from blogs. Not many people do it on this board, but of those who do, most are conservative (from what I've seen)...

 

[nt250]

I'm just as guilty as putting conservatives all in the same place.

I must say though, seriously, on all the sites I visit it is predominantly - by a huge margin - conservatives who post from blogs. Not many people do it on this board, but of those who do, most are conservative (from what I've seen)...

That's not my experience at all, but I've never posted on a board that is as conservative as this one is before. The board I spent most of the time on was a very liberal, and very active board. It had posters from all over the world and it was unusual for 3 minutes to go by between posts. It was very addictive. They banned me more more than a year ago because of my Islam posts. I still miss it.

This is a nice board. Lots of different people and the mods are pretty cool. I'll try and watch the "stupid" accusations in the future. But, boy, it's really tough to read all the bible stuff. ICK.

 

[Dr Grump]

That's not my experience at all, but I've never posted on a board that is as conservative as this one is before. The board I spent most of the time on was a very liberal, and very active board. It had posters from all over the world and it was unusual for 3 minutes to go by between posts. It was very addictive. They banned me more more than a year ago because of my Islam posts. I still miss it.

This is a nice board. Lots of different people and the mods are pretty cool. I'll try and watch the "stupid" accusations in the future. But, boy, it's really tough to read all the bible stuff. ICK.

The other board I go on is about 50/50, but is run by conservatives. They rarely ban and are tolerant even though their opinions are pretty similar to conservatives here. In fact, it's quite easy to equate posters on that board with posters on this.

Did your other board close down or you just get sick of it. Wasn't the Guardian was it? That has posters from all over the place...

 

[nt250]

The other board I go on is about 50/50, but is run by conservatives. They rarely ban and are tolerant even though their opinions are pretty similar to conservatives here. In fact, it's quite easy to equate posters on that board with posters on this.

Did your other board close down or you just get sick of it. Wasn't the Guardian was it? That has posters from all over the place...

No, I spent 6 years posting at IMDb, it's the Internet Movie Database. It's the best message board on the internet. It has the best format of any message board I've ever seen. And it's very active. It has boards for every movie, but I stuck to the general boards and over the years I pretty much stuck to The Soapbox, which is kind of like this boards Chat.

What I really miss about IMDb are the TV boards. I'm a fanatical Buffy The Vampire Slayer fan and I just can't find any other board with other fans as obsessive about the show as I am. I'm also a 24 fan. I miss that. 24 is the type of show that is actually much more fun to talk about than it is to watch, and within a minute of each episode being over, there were a few of us on the TV board who would be online to rant or rave about Jack's latest exploits or who got killed that episode, or the latest stupid thing Kim did. It was a lot of fun.

 

[UnAmericanYOU]

BUT that dont make this any lesser of an evil

But it's not about you, right?.

Correct. It's all about you. W00T, progress!

Is that a bad thing? Is that a good thing? ..

Neither and both. One is not two, two is not one.

I am trying to have it both way? hmmmm...maybe, maybe not. I am not the arbiter of such things, you are it seems.....

Stop changing the subject to me, I only matter with regards to you. I am not two people, there's the arbitration.

Well, you being a patriot and all, you'll be fine!

I'm not a minuteman, if that's what your asking. I live too far north in a place there's little chance of some terrorist attack, more horses than people.

Goats as well.

Why does her being a liberal have anything to do with whether I can speak for her or not? It's almost a non-sequitor..

You should charge money for political rhetoric you don't agree with, then, this is just lame.

I can't speak for Howard Dean, now can I? If I tried to, I'd be articulating my interpertation of his views that I don't agree with.

We're two different people. I'm not THAT telepathic.

Go for it.

I couldn't answer a question on how you'd interpert any given blog, maybe if you were the writer...

No, not ashamed at all! If I was a liberal I would happily admit to being such. Why should I admit to something just to satiate the will of those who would label me something I'm not..

Strange choice of words, "admit"? To me, liberalism is an ideology, not a word to satiate my compulsion to label you.

Labels can be deliberately misleading, get the hint?

And yet NT calls me a liberal, and because that conforms to your opinion of me, even though it is not true, you give her a free pass. Go figure.

NT might perceive you as a liberal. Then either she's wrong, she's lying, you're mistaken or you're lying, all about being or not being a liberal. But it could also mean that everyone's or no one's a liberal. NEO-CON.

But, for you, here goes:


NT, I'm revoking that free pass. Don't try those mindgames again with me. 'Bout time you retracted that blog accusation. And, ban the boards that banned you....justice.

Not really. It's quite easy to prove unless our posts have been deleted. There should be plenty of posts with us linking to blogs. Go for it.

What exactly supposed to extract? Your head?

There are? Where'd you get that piece of gen? "Infidals,the good the bad and the ugly?"

"Gen"? Not familiar with that term...there were several crusades, all for occupied lands....a Muslim heretic outranks a kafhir, cowboy.


You'll find God, or God will find you first. [/fundamentalist]

Or calling 'em as I see 'em...

IF you happen to have perfect vision, else you could be wr-wr-wr-wrong.

And yet you taking issue with Jillian and I speaking for each other, your "groupthink" comments, "It's about you" etc, etc are not condescending? Are they from the Rodney King "why can't we all get along" school?

I don't like that school of thought. You bailed her out, again, and I've seen her help you, neither of you need the other, so it's annoying.

"It's about you" wasn't meant to be condescending, you often answer arguments by attacking the other person. YOU read YOUR posts again.

No, I don't think either one of you are memtally challenged, you both have this us v. them mentality that you project onto others.

It's more like: Please, stop the tranference!

And yet, here you are doing so.....

No, Glock still can't speak in my behalf, as if he'd want to.

Ditto...

Are you re-attacking me, Rush?

Yes, conservatives do advocate personal responsibility, but I blame you for that, too.

 

[Dr Grump]

No, I spent 6 years posting at IMDb, it's the Internet Movie Database. It's the best message board on the internet. It has the best format of any message board I've ever seen. And it's very active. It has boards for every movie, but I stuck to the general boards and over the years I pretty much stuck to The Soapbox, which is kind of like this boards Chat.

What I really miss about IMDb are the TV boards. I'm a fanatical Buffy The Vampire Slayer fan and I just can't find any other board with other fans as obsessive about the show as I am. I'm also a 24 fan. I miss that. 24 is the type of show that is actually much more fun to talk about than it is to watch, and within a minute of each episode being over, there were a few of us on the TV board who would be online to rant or rave about Jack's latest exploits or who got killed that episode, or the latest stupid thing Kim did. It was a lot of fun.

Can't you go in under a different nick? The only programmes I watch outsida news, sports and docos are Sopranos, Deadwood and my all-time fav Battlestar Galactica...:O)

 

[nt250]

Can't you go in under a different nick? The only programmes I watch outsida news, sports and docos are Sopranos, Deadwood and my all-time fav Battlestar Galactica...:O)

No, they banned me by IP and I'm too stupid to figure out how to get around it.

I'm a Sopranos fan, too. I've never watched Deadwood. I've seen a couple of episodes of Battlestar Galactica but I've never gotten into it so I never remember to watch it.

This is one of my favorite websites on the net:

http://www.tvguide.com/News-Views/Columnists/Ask-Matt/default.aspx

There are a lot of cool columns at TVGuide.com, but I like Matt Roush's column the best. He loves Deadwood and he is a huge Battlestar Galactica fan. If you're into TV his Ask Matt column and his Reviews and Dispatch columns are a fun read. Ask Matt is new every Monday and Friday. His other columns are now blogs, so he updates them whenever.

 

[Dr Grump]

Neither and both. One is not two, two is not one. [/B.

Are you going for the "How much double speak can I get away with before they scope me" award?

Stop changing the subject to me, I only matter with regards to you. I am not two people, there's the arbitration.

Ok, so the aribiter has set the parameters. In that case, why the obsession?

I'm not a minuteman, if that's what your asking. I live too far north in a place there's little chance of some terrorist attack, more horses than people. Goats as well.

Nope, no double meaning or hidden motive in that one..

You should charge money for political rhetoric you don't agree with, then, this is just lame.

Your should charge money for finding things in posts that aren't there in the first place...

I can't speak for Howard Dean, now can I? If I tried to, I'd be articulating my interpertation of his views that I don't agree with. We're two different people. I'm not THAT telepathic.

And there lies the rub. How well do you know Dean? How well do I know Jill?

I couldn't answer a question on how you'd interpert any given blog, maybe if you were the writer.

You can't even answer which blogs Jill or I have referenced, so it is no surprise..

Strange choice of words, "admit"? To me, liberalism is an ideology, not a word to satiate my compulsion to label you.

Who said it was a word to satiate your appetite? One has to admit to being an adherent to an ideology or they don't believe in it. You can label anybody or anything you like!

Labels can be deliberately misleading, get the hint?

Oh, I get the hint, and if you had read even half my posts, or knew anything about me at all, you wouldn't need to tell me that. Obviously you haven't and you do...nevermind...

NT might perceive you as a liberal. Then either she's wrong, she's lying, you're mistaken or you're lying, all about being or not being a liberal. But it could also mean that everyone's or no one's a liberal. NEO-CON.

Bingo.

"Gen"? Not familiar with that term...there were several crusades, all for occupied lands....a Muslim heretic outranks a kafhir, cowboy.

So there is a heirachy...rriiiiighhhttt:blah2:

IF you happen to have perfect vision, else you could be wr-wr-wr-wrong.

Hey, we're on a messageboard, I can't help how you come across. You seem to be chastising me, but at the same time doing exactly the same thing as you are chastising me for. Maybe, instead of trying to post with double meanings, and intellectual prowess, maybe being straight-up would solve the problem?

I don't like that school of thought. You bailed her out, again, and I've seen her help you, neither of you need the other, so it's annoying.

Of course we don't need each other. It is very rare we do. If you read all of our posts I'd be surprised if 2 or 3% are when we are helping each other out. There are plenty of posts and threads were conservatives are jumping all over others in support. No biggie is it?

"It's about you" wasn't meant to be condescending, you often answer arguments by attacking the other person. YOU read YOUR posts again.

Total poppycock. I rarely attack anybody, and I put a lot of thought into most of my answers. I do read my posts, and if you are gonna comment on them, I suggest you do the same..

No, I don't think either one of you are memtally challenged, you both have this us v. them mentality that you project onto others. It's more like: Please, stop the tranference!

I don't think that you think we are mentally challenged either. As for the US vs them mentality, well the vast majority of posters are conservative. Jill is a liberal and I'm a centrist, so that is understandable, no? I'm not trying transference by a long shot. Dunno why you think that.

No, Glock still can't speak in my behalf, as if he'd want to.

I wasn't talking about Glock speaking on your behalf, I was talking about your talking on her's..

Are you re-attacking me, Rush?

Hell no! I'm giving as good as I get! :O)

Yes, conservatives do advocate personal responsibility, but I blame you for that, too.

Why thank you :bangheads

 

[Dr Grump]

No, they banned me by IP and I'm too stupid to figure out how to get around it..

The only way I know to get around IP's is have several different puters signed up to different IP's...I've got three, but I've never had to do that...

 

[jillian]

But even though I was not applying for welfare, or any kind of state benefits at all, the state would not let me name him as the father. I guess the rule makes sense because any nut can name anybody, so there is probably no solution for that.

Sorry... I was reading your post. You don't need the father's consent for him to be legally named the father of your child. What you do have to do is go to your local Family Court and bring a paternity case. They'll do an HLA test on him, you and the kid. As for child support, it's generally considered to be for the benefit of the child, not the parent, so some states allow the child to bring an independent action for support after they turn 18.... that's lots of years of back child support.

 

[UnAmericanYOU]

No, they banned me by IP and I'm too stupid to figure out how to get around it.

Ummm...IP spoofers, proxies? Not that I know anything about it, of course.

BUT that dont make this any lesser of an evil

Ok, so the aribiter has set the parameters. In that case, why the obsession?

There are unhealthy obsessions, but not all obsessions are unhealthy. One of the ways to prevent this from happening is to take responsibility for one's actions. Or in my case, to blame you.

Nope, no double meaning or hidden motive in that one..

I didn't know how to answer, are there degrees of patriotism, or, to put it bluntly, a call between patriotism or treason?

Your should charge money for finding things in posts that aren't there in the first place...

There are people that get paid by "firms" to post canned messages all day long. I think you misunderstood.

And there lies the rub. How well do you know Dean? How well do I know Jill?

I could write him a speech if I had a rough outline to follow, but he'd still be saying my words that he believes in. I wouldn't want to be held accountable for that.

You can't even answer which blogs Jill or I have referenced, so it is no surprise..

How in the hell would I know which blogs you read today? I don't have your problem with blogs, most of the ones I've seen are just links to news articles, or op/eds.

Who said it was a word to satiate your appetite? One has to admit to being an adherent to an ideology or they don't believe in it. You can label anybody or anything you like!

Your choice of phrase. While you didn't directly accuse me per se of mislabeling you, you sneered at labeling while labeling.

Oh, I get the hint, and if you had read even half my posts, or knew anything about me at all, you wouldn't need to tell me that. Obviously you haven't and you do...nevermind...

No, I want to mind. I will go back and read them when I find the time. They always used to make us rubberstamp a ban, it was too late.

You want clarity? "Neo-con" is liberalspeak.

So there is a heirachy...rriiiiighhhttt:blah2:

In Islamism? Yes, there is a hierarchy, it's not as defined as in the Roman Catholic Church - there's no "Muslim" Vatican (only Mecca informally) and there's always a dispute on who's an imamand who isn't. That really complicates the fatwah issue IMO.

"Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them on the way."

- Koran 4:137

It's different for apostates, this is on kafirs:

As to those who reject faith (kafaru), it is the same to them whether you warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe

-Koran 2:6

Kufr al-tawheed is to reject the belief in the oneness of God, but odds are you already knew that.

Hey, we're on a messageboard, I can't help how you come across. You seem to be chastising me, but at the same time doing exactly the same thing as you are chastising me for. Maybe, instead of trying to post with double meanings, and intellectual prowess, maybe being straight-up would solve the problem?

Questioning you doesn't have to have an undertone of chastizing you.

http://www.the-orb.net/encyclop/religion/crusades/crusade.html

http://www.globalwebpost.com/farooqm/study_res/islam/fiqh/farooq_shariah.html

Where did you go to school? You spell some words like they do in the UK.

Of course we don't need each other. It is very rare we do. If you read all of our posts I'd be surprised if 2 or 3% are when we are helping each other out. There are plenty of posts and threads were conservatives are jumping all over others in support. No biggie is it?

It provokes resentment. Reinforce the point, derail the thread, counterpoint, do SOMETHING, agreeing with the point over and over again is weak.

Total poppycock. I rarely attack anybody, and I put a lot of thought into most of my answers. I do read my posts, and if you are gonna comment on them, I suggest you do the same..

Eye, beholder. I'm happy to hear you read what you write?

Again, pulling your old threads in on my mental to-do list.

I don't think that you think we are mentally challenged either. As for the US vs them mentality, well the vast majority of posters are conservative. Jill is a liberal and I'm a centrist, so that is understandable, no? I'm not trying transference by a long shot. Dunno why you think that.

A centrist has to.

Condescendation implies perceived superiority. N/A.

I wasn't talking about Glock speaking on your behalf, I was talking about your talking on her's..

eview time. She and "jillian" were arguing. You answered for jillian. Glock asked why. You, in essence, told her what's what. Then, I asked you why you did that. Jillian answered the real question then, what I'd wanted the whole time.

Hell no! I'm giving as good as I get! :O)

Don't be obtuse. If I poke a stick at one dog, I expect that dog to snap at me, not some random dog. Is that too much to expect?

Why thank you :bangheads

Two emo's.

Politics and religion are a tough mix. This Harry Reid land scandal is boring me to tears, just saying.

 

[nt250]

Sorry... I was reading your post. You don't need the father's consent for him to be legally named the father of your child. What you do have to do is go to your local Family Court and bring a paternity case. They'll do an HLA test on him, you and the kid. As for child support, it's generally considered to be for the benefit of the child, not the parent, so some states allow the child to bring an independent action for support after they turn 18.... that's lots of years of back child support.

I know all that. All he had to do was sign the form, but I knew he wouldn't. He's a lawyer, and criminal defense lawyer at that. I could have taken him to court but I just didn't think it was worth it in the end. You can force a man to pay money. You can't force him to act like a father.

I just thought she was better off with no father at all than one who would break her heart at every turn. He was 45 years old and already had been married, divorced, and had a 25 year old daughter he hadn't seen since she was a kid.

I don't call him The Bastard fer nothin'. But I loved the man. Couldn't help myself.

 

[jillian]

I know all that. All he had to do was sign the form, but I knew he wouldn't. He's a lawyer, and criminal defense lawyer at that. I could have taken him to court but I just didn't think it was worth it in the end. You can force a man to pay money. You can't force him to act like a father.

I just thought she was better off with no father at all than one who would break her heart at every turn. He was 45 years old and already had been married, divorced, and had a 25 year old daughter he hadn't seen since she was a kid.

I don't call him The Bastard fer nothin'. But I loved the man. Couldn't help myself.

I hear ya. Certainly not an unreasonable decision under the circumstances. And I'm sure all of us, at one time or another, fell for someone who wasn't good for us.

Still woulda been fun garnishing his paycheck.

 

[dilloduck]

I hear ya. Certainly not an unreasonable decision under the circumstances. And I'm sure all of us, at one time or another, fell for someone who wasn't good for us.

Still woulda been fun garnishing his paycheck.

such delight in causing misery to others

sad

 

[nt250]

I hear ya. Certainly not an unreasonable decision under the circumstances. And I'm sure all of us, at one time or another, fell for someone who wasn't good for us.

Still woulda been fun garnishing his paycheck.

Hey, you never know. She could still go after him when she comes of age.

The governor of Rhode Island had that happen to him. He had a "love child" and when she turned 18 she sued him. It was hysterical. She was the spitting image of him. There was no way anybody who saw her picture could possibly deny that he was her father. They looked almost exactly alike. He actually looked like a character in the Munsters. The uncle. And she looked just like him. The resemblence was uncanny.

He accepted her, and when she got married a few years ago he gave her away at her wedding.

So a happy ending isn't entirely impossible for us yet. Wishful thinking, but not impossible.

 

[jillian]

You want clarity? "Neo-con" is liberalspeak.

No... the term neo-conservative is defined by a particular political agenda exemplified by the goals set by the PNAC.

If "neo-con" is liberalspeak, do you think, perhaps, the term "liberal" as it's tossed about by the right is "neo-con speak"?

It provokes resentment. Reinforce the point, derail the thread, counterpoint, do SOMETHING, agreeing with the point over and over again is weak.

You know, I don't really buy that. This is a predominantly conservative board. If you read from thread to thread, you will find one conservative poster after another agreeing with the others, posting when they can't give rep to each other b/c they've given each other too much, and generally giving each other the cybernetic high five.

I figure what's good for the goose is good for the gander and if we see eye to eye on many subjects, then why refrain from posting our agreement?

Also, just to respond to what you said about canned responses, when we say the other can "speak for" us, we don't mean that we post in the other's "voice" so to speak. It means that if you misconstrue something I say, it is more than likely that he would know that I meant something different and he might, on occasion, choose to clarify if it were on a subject that interests him or if he thinks something I've said has been unfairly mischaracterized. I might do the same if something he says is misconstrued. It's really not that twilight zone a thing nor is it particularly complex. Does that make sense?

Review time. She and "jillian" were arguing. You answered for jillian. Glock asked why. You, in essence, told her what's what. Then, I asked you why you did that. Jillian answered the real question then, what I'd wanted the whole time.

Glad I answered your question.

Don't be obtuse. If I poke a stick at one dog, I expect that dog to snap at me, not some random dog. Is that too much to expect?

You ever read the conservative responses when a lib takes a position on a controversial subject? Just the way it is.

Two emo's.

To be truthful, I like emoticons. They humanize posts, show a bit of sense of humor and deflect sometimes from things that might otherwise be harsher than they sound.

Politics and religion are a tough mix. This Harry Reid land scandal is boring me to tears, just saying.

Heh! I hear ya.

 

[Annie]

Hey, you never know. She could still go after him when she comes of age.

The governor of Rhode Island had that happen to him. He had a "love child" and when she turned 18 she sued him. It was hysterical. She was the spitting image of him. There was no way anybody who saw her picture could possibly deny that he was her father. They looked almost exactly alike. He actually looked like a character in the Munsters. The uncle. And she looked just like him. The resemblence was uncanny.

He accepted her, and when she got married a few years ago he gave her away at her wedding.

So a happy ending isn't entirely impossible for us yet. Wishful thinking, but not impossible.

One of my children is considering suing his father for college costs. The dad makes over $200k per year, I make about $30k, including extra duties. I've paid for books and car insurance from the get go.

The dad was very timely with child support, since it was garnished from the day the divorce was finalized. It was in excess of what most children receive, though the payments for the period during the divorce were not so generous. We dealt with over a year of his paying $50 dollars per month, that is with 3 kids and living in my parents home. I was in college full time, which was covered by scholarship, but no other income. For two years he was ordered to pay $800 a month, with the rent of an apartment being $950 per month. My parents paid the difference and food/utilities.

He refused promotions throughout the divorce, which was a period of 4 years. The Monday after the finalizing, his salary jumped from about $50k to $120k, with a bonus, (for the work he'd been performing but not collecting on.) The divorce took so long due to his fighting it. For another 3 years, the court appointed the kids an attorney-ad-litem, while dealing with psychiatrist, social workers, etc.

I'd gotten to the point where I just said to my attorney, "Get it done". Financially things were done reasonably at that point, but college costs were not addressed, cause he fought that. So I let it go. I figured if they wanted to go, they'd find a way. They have. One though, thinks it's more than unfair and wants to go back and collect, including braces, etc.

 

[dilloduck]

One of my children is considering suing his father for college costs. The dad makes over $200k per year, I make about $30k, including extra duties. I've paid for books and car insurance from the get go.

The dad was very timely with child support, since it was garnished from the day the divorce was finalized. It was in excess of what most children receive, though the payments for the period during the divorce were not so generous. We dealt with over a year of his paying $50 dollars per month, that is with 3 kids and living in my parents home. I was in college full time, which was covered by scholarship, but no other income. For two years he was ordered to pay $800 a month, with the rent of an apartment being $950 per month. My parents paid the difference and food/utilities.

He refused promotions throughout the divorce, which was a period of 4 years. The Monday after the finalizing, his salary jumped from about $50k to $120k, with a bonus, (for the work he'd been performing but not collecting on.) The divorce took so long due to his fighting it. For another 3 years, the court appointed the kids an attorney-ad-litem, while dealing with psychiatrist, social workers, etc.

I'd gotten to the point where I just said to my attorney, "Get it done". Financially things were done reasonably at that point, but college costs were not addressed, cause he fought that. So I let it go. I figured if they wanted to go, they'd find a way. They have. One though, thinks it's more than unfair and wants to go back and collect, including braces, etc.

Divorce and child support has generated a whole new level of the attitude of entitlement.

 

[Annie]

Divorce and child support has generated a whole new level of the attitude of entitlement.

Ummm, I'm neither encouraging, nor discouraging this kid. The child will have to sue, I'm not a party. I received no alimony, though I certainly could have. The 'victim father' took over $130k of 'joint savings' that had been earmarked for college funds, after a year of waiting for an accounting of those funds, I basically said, 'screw it, get the divorce done.' The $130 doesn't include the over $50k in bonds, that were able to be tracked down.

Not every male is a 'victim', victim.

 

[dilloduck]

Ummm, I'm neither encouraging, nor discouraging this kid. The child will have to sue, I'm not a party. I received no alimony, though I certainly could have. The 'victim father' took over $130k of 'joint savings' that had been earmarked for college funds, after a year of waiting for an accounting of those funds, I basically said, 'screw it, get the divorce done.' The $130 doesn't include the over $50k in bonds, that were able to be tracked down.

Not every male is a 'victim', victim.

There are very few real victims if any at all.