Zone1 The incredible writing of The Book of Mormon

[JoeB131]

Again, you are spewing very old attacks that have all been determined to be false. Just take the Kinderhook plates. He made a statement that perhaps they were ancient records. He did not say they definitely were. The fact is, he never came up with a translation. Therefore, he knew at some point it was a fake. Do you have a translation? No. End of story.

Yes, we do have a translation.

Kinderhook Plates & Translator Claims | CES Letter

CES Letter is one Latter-Day Saint's honest quest to get official answers from the LDS Church on its troubling origins, history, and practices. Jeremy Runnells was offered an opportunity to discuss his own doubts with a director of the Church Educational System (CES) and was assured that his...

read.cesletter.org

"I insert facsimiles of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook... I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, and that he received his Kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth.” – Joseph Smith, Jr.

 

[Cougarbear]

And, do you have the translation? No. Because there was none. He fooled the attempted hoax. Hope you enjoyed his hoax on you

 

[JoeB131]

And, do you have the translation? No. Because there was none. He fooled the attempted hoax. Hope you enjoyed his hoax on you

Um, is that what he did?

It seems to me he was making stuff up.

If he knew it was a hoax, why not just say, "This is a hoax"?

 

[Cougarbear]

Um, is that what he did?

It seems to me he was making stuff up.

If he knew it was a hoax, why not just say, "This is a hoax"?

Because he liked to play with people who tried to play with him. Again, where is the translation? We have the Book of Mormon , Book of Moses and the Book of Abraham. But no Book of Kinderhooks. So funny! You got played!

Even liberal Google AI found the same thing as I’ve known for 48 years.
“
No, Joseph Smith was not fooled by the Kinderhook Plates because he did not fully translate them and ultimately lost interest in them
. The plates were a 19th-century hoax designed to trick him, and although he briefly examined them, he never claimed to have received a revelatory translation.

• Brief examination, not translation: Joseph Smith looked at the plates and attempted to make a secular comparison of the characters to his Hebrew lexicon and Egyptian alphabet, similar to other projects, but he did not pursue a full or revelatory translation.
• Lost interest: Historical records show he quickly lost interest in the plates after this initial examination and never inquired about them again, unlike his work on the Book of Mormon or the Book of Abraham.
  • No full translation: There is no record of him ever providing a complete or published translation, and no manuscript for one was ever found.”

 

[JoeB131]

Because he liked to play with people who tried to play with him. Again, where is the translation? We have the Book of Mormon , Book of Moses and the Book of Abraham. But no Book of Kinderhooks. So funny! You got played!

If you are using AI to make your argument for you, you are wasting your time.

The reason Smith probably knew the Kinderhook Tablets were a hoax was that he knew everything else he did was a hoax. It just wasn't a hoax he had any control over.

Of course, he couldn't come out and say they were a hoax, then more people might start questioning his other "Translations".

So we know that he got Kinderhook wrong, he got the Book of Abraham Wrong, there's that whole issue with the missing 116 pages he wasn't able to replicate.

So let's apply Occam's razor here. The simplest answer, all other things being equal, is usually the truth. The simplest answer here is that Smith was a con man who found that religion was an easier con than selling people gold-finding divining rods.

 

[Cougarbear]

If you are using AI to make your argument for you, you are wasting your time.

The reason Smith probably knew the Kinderhook Tablets were a hoax was that he knew everything else he did was a hoax. It just wasn't a hoax he had any control over.

Of course, he couldn't come out and say they were a hoax, then more people might start questioning his other "Translations".

So we know that he got Kinderhook wrong, he got the Book of Abraham Wrong, there's that whole issue with the missing 116 pages he wasn't able to replicate.

So let's apply Occam's razor here. The simplest answer, all other things being equal, is usually the truth. The simplest answer here is that Smith was a con man who found that religion was an easier con than selling people gold-finding divining rods.

We know he got the Kinderhook Plates right because what he thought at first wasn’t true and that it was a hoax by men in the area trying to get him into a lie. His first reaction was it was”may” be from the period of the brother of Jared. But, as he began to use the seer stones he realized immediately they were fake. The easiest logical thing is to understand this. That is Occam’s Razor for this. Not your complicated theory.

 

[Cougarbear]

If you are using AI to make your argument for you, you are wasting your time.

The reason Smith probably knew the Kinderhook Tablets were a hoax was that he knew everything else he did was a hoax. It just wasn't a hoax he had any control over.

Of course, he couldn't come out and say they were a hoax, then more people might start questioning his other "Translations".

So we know that he got Kinderhook wrong, he got the Book of Abraham Wrong, there's that whole issue with the missing 116 pages he wasn't able to replicate.

So let's apply Occam's razor here. The simplest answer, all other things being equal, is usually the truth. The simplest answer here is that Smith was a con man who found that religion was an easier con than selling people gold-finding divining rods.

 

[JoeB131]

Guy, the problem with your video is that it assumes the listener takes the Bible at face value.

I don't. The bible has talking snakes and giants in it.

Now, we know the Bible has some veracity. It describes real places we know. We have SOME archaeology that backs some of it up.

Some of the Bible, like the Hebrews living in Egypt, is utter horse pucky. The Egyptians were Very Meticulous in recording their history, and no mentions of the Hebrews at all, except for the few times they had to come up and slap Israel around for being a pain in the backside.

But there are a lot of people mentioned in the bible who can be verified as historical - Herod, Pontius Pilate, Augustus, Tiberius, Cyrus the Great, etc.

The Book of Mormon. Zip. Nada. Zero. Not one coin, not one independent account, not one tradition from a Native American group. We can't even tell where the Nephite Kingdom supposedly was. (Smith's original theory was that they were the Mound Builders, namely the Hopewell and Mississippian civilizations.) But we now know they were Native Americans, not Hebrews.

Now, fun fact, because Americans were so incredibly racist back in the day, they posited all kinds of bunk theories for these finds. They must have been Vikings. They must have been Romans. They must have been Hebrews. DAMMIT, THEY HAD TO HAVE BEEN WHITE PEOPLE!!!!

The extensive archaeology of these people in their artifacts proves otherwise.

 

[Cougarbear]

Guy, the problem with your video is that it assumes the listener takes the Bible at face value.

I don't. The bible has talking snakes and giants in it.

Now, we know the Bible has some veracity. It describes real places we know. We have SOME archaeology that backs some of it up.

Some of the Bible, like the Hebrews living in Egypt, is utter horse pucky. The Egyptians were Very Meticulous in recording their history, and no mentions of the Hebrews at all, except for the few times they had to come up and slap Israel around for being a pain in the backside.

But there are a lot of people mentioned in the bible who can be verified as historical - Herod, Pontius Pilate, Augustus, Tiberius, Cyrus the Great, etc.

The Book of Mormon. Zip. Nada. Zero. Not one coin, not one independent account, not one tradition from a Native American group. We can't even tell where the Nephite Kingdom supposedly was. (Smith's original theory was that they were the Mound Builders, namely the Hopewell and Mississippian civilizations.) But we now know they were Native Americans, not Hebrews.

Now, fun fact, because Americans were so incredibly racist back in the day, they posited all kinds of bunk theories for these finds. They must have been Vikings. They must have been Romans. They must have been Hebrews. DAMMIT, THEY HAD TO HAVE BEEN WHITE PEOPLE!!!!

The extensive archaeology of these people in their artifacts proves otherwise.

Snake? Just one. Instead of a thing, it is stating the sneakiness of Satan who was in the Garden of Eden. If you don't take the Bible at face value, then why do you with the "snake" or "serpent?"

More and more evidence is coming forth concerning the archaeology of the Bible. Potential evidence of a possible drowning of Pharaoh's army in the Red Sea. Evidence of Sodom and Gomorrah as well. Where Moses saw and spoke with the Lord has possibly been found at Jabal al-Lawz in Saudi Arabia is the biblical Mount Sinai, based on archaeological finds like petroglyphs of cows, a split rock, and what appears to be a burnt mountaintop. Does this mean these are the exact locations? No. But, why do you think there would be anything left at Sodaom and Gomorrah or Mount Sinai? There's LiDar evidence for millions of square miles of civilizations in South and North America that has not been unearthed. What happens if a name in the Book of Mormon is on some artifact?

He has a point with NMH. You really study the journey of Lehi and his family in the old world before coming to the Americas and there is evidence that was unknown to Joseph Smith. You really should listen to the videos we have posted. But, what we have that you don't is faith in Jesus Christ, period. Something you cannot take away.

 

[JoeB131]

Snake? Just one. Instead of a thing, it is stating the sneakiness of Satan who was in the Garden of Eden. If you don't take the Bible at face value, then why do you with the "snake" or "serpent?"

Except nothing in the Genesis story indicates the "Serpent" was anything other than an animal. It didn't get associated with Satan until much later. (Probably because Satan wasn't invented until much later.)

More and more evidence is coming forth concerning the archaeology of the Bible. Potential evidence of a possible drowning of Pharaoh's army in the Red Sea. Evidence of Sodom and Gomorrah as well.

From Credible archeologists, or one of these guys who also claims he knows where Noah's Ark is.

Where Moses saw and spoke with the Lord has possibly been found at Jabal al-Lawz in Saudi Arabia is the biblical Mount Sinai, based on archaeological finds like petroglyphs of cows, a split rock, and what appears to be a burnt mountaintop.

Except we know Mt. Sinai isn't in Saudi Arabia, it's in Egypt.

Does this mean these are the exact locations? No. But, why do you think there would be anything left at Sodaom and Gomorrah or Mount Sinai?

Well, if Sodom existed, there would be plenty of evidence. As for Mt. Sinai, we know where that is.

There's LiDar evidence for millions of square miles of civilizations in South and North America that has not been unearthed. What happens if a name in the Book of Mormon is on some artifact?

What if they find the Ancient city of R'lyeh where Dread C'Thulhu lies sleeping?

He has a point with NMH. You really study the journey of Lehi and his family in the old world before coming to the Americas and there is evidence that was unknown to Joseph Smith. You really should listen to the videos we have posted. But, what we have that you don't is faith in Jesus Christ, period. Something you cannot take away.

I think Jesus was a swell guy.
His mother wasn't a virgin and he didn't rise from the dead. He certainly didn't visit the Americas after leaving Judea.

 

[Cougarbear]

Except nothing in the Genesis story indicates the "Serpent" was anything other than an animal. It didn't get associated with Satan until much later. (Probably because Satan wasn't invented until much later.)



From Credible archeologists, or one of these guys who also claims he knows where Noah's Ark is.



Except we know Mt. Sinai isn't in Saudi Arabia, it's in Egypt.



Well, if Sodom existed, there would be plenty of evidence. As for Mt. Sinai, we know where that is.



What if they find the Ancient city of R'lyeh where Dread C'Thulhu lies sleeping?


I think Jesus was a swell guy.
His mother wasn't a virgin and he didn't rise from the dead. He certainly didn't visit the Americas after leaving Judea.

Here is your style of strawman attacks.

 

[JoeB131]

Here is your style of strawman attacks.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to find someone else's arguments to refute when you can't refute mine.

Perhaps it's because you can't refute mine.

I'm not even addressing the nuances of Mormon Beliefs like Spirit Children, Planet Kolob, Baptizing Dead people, etc. Not the topic of this thread.

I'm limiting myself to the improbabilities that the BoM is anything other than a fraud, which you haven't really been able to refute other than to repeat LDS propaganda about how Smith wasn't banging his child brides and his fellow church members totally saw those Golden plates he translated through his hat.

 

[Cougarbear]

I'm not sure why you feel the need to find someone else's arguments to refute when you can't refute mine.

Perhaps it's because you can't refute mine.

I'm not even addressing the nuances of Mormon Beliefs like Spirit Children, Planet Kolob, Baptizing Dead people, etc. Not the topic of this thread.

I'm limiting myself to the improbabilities that the BoM is anything other than a fraud, which you haven't really been able to refute other than to repeat LDS propaganda about how Smith wasn't banging his child brides and his fellow church members totally saw those Golden plates he translated through his hat.

I’ve refuted everyone of yours. My point is your arguments are mostly strawman arguments. The ones that aren’t I’ve answered. Some myself and others with people who say it better than I do. Joseph Smith was the first prophet in these the latter days. The Book of Mormon is true and the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the Christ Lord and Savior of all those who have faith and believe in Him. He also re-established His Church after centuries of apostasy, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price are testaments of Jesus Christ.

 

[JoeB131]

I’ve refuted everyone of yours. My point is your arguments are mostly strawman arguments. The ones that aren’t I’ve answered. Some myself and others with people who say it better than I do. Joseph Smith was the first prophet in these the latter days. The Book of Mormon is true and the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the Christ Lord and Savior of all those who have faith and believe in Him. He also re-established His Church after centuries of apostasy, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price are testaments of Jesus Christ.

I realize that this is your faith, and I'm really trying to be a bit more accommodating than I normally am.

But faith isn't evidence.

A Muslim or a Hindu or a Branch Davidian could claim their faith with just as much sincerity, but that doesn't make those things "true" either.

 

[JoeB131]

Anyway, if you really need the last word, I'm unfollowing the thread.

 

[Cougarbear]

I realize that this is your faith, and I'm really trying to be a bit more accommodating than I normally am.

But faith isn't evidence.

A Muslim or a Hindu or a Branch Davidian could claim their faith with just as much sincerity, but that doesn't make those things "true" either.

Faith is the evidence of things not seen yet true. It’s what believers know by the influence of the Holy Ghost. No one said it is physical scientific evidence. Both examples you used are strawman arguments. Those are examples of blind faith.

 

[DennisPTate]

Open and explain ALL the facts listed about the writing of The Book of Mormon through the Prophet Joseph Smith…It’s impossible except through the Holy Ghost and the guidance from God.

Shalom CougarBear, I am of the belief that the residents of the State of Utah are all set up to play an extremely important role in bringing heaven to this earth.


Latter day Saints and Roman Catholics tend to take near death experience accounts more seriously than most denominations of Christianity do so this puts you in a special position at this critical time in history.

I do hope that you Latter day Saints are correct in your assertions about how the dead can learn and progress even after they have passed on from this four dimensional space time continuum.

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