Zone1 The Heresy of Christian Zionism

[Indeependent]

Reread my fourth bullet point, won't you.

• God interacts with humankind in accordance with seven historical time frames, or “dispensations,” the current one, Grace, being the sixth one;

Dispensationalism has changed the Bible and contradicts your very sentiment.

Do you know what grace means?

 

[fncceo]

Holy Sheeit ...

Buddhists make up a third of the world's population and they don't get nearly as much press as The Jews.

You guys REALLY need to get another hobby.

 

[Esdraelon]

Never heard of him, and was never taught anything by him. You are the one who follows false prophets and deceitful special interest "preachers".

They abound today. Ask them about clear indications that end-times prophecies are coming together in our daily news and they just mock. Let them. In that day when they bow before Christ, let them explain why they heard but would not listen.

 

[norwegen]

No rebuttals yet, I see. At least, no successful ones. Perhaps these points about Christian Zionism are irrefutable.

• God wanted Jews to return to and take over Palestine;
• God had two plans for salvation – one for Christians and one for Jews;
• Christians should abstain from politics, education, business, and the arts, as these are “worldly” pursuits to remain in the hands of “worldly” people;
• God interacts with humankind in accordance with seven historical time frames, or “dispensations,” the current one, Grace, being the sixth one;
• The Christian Church is doomed to failure, which will terminate the Dispensation of Grace;
• A seven-year tribulation, or worldwide persecution, will characterize the end of this dispensational grace period, which Christians need not fret over, as they will be raptured;
• Christ will then reign for one thousand years and Old Testament customs will be reinstituted in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem.

So the question again is, are they biblical?

Rebuttals welcome.

 

[presonorek]

I watched a very informative documentary on the subject titled, “Marching to Zion”.

 

[Ivan88]

Thank You, Norwegen for Your lead post.
before President Tump started His initial election attempt, He confessed to believing
all that stuff You mentioned. He was figuring on giving anti-Christs pretending to be Biblical Israel everything they wanted and "God" would make America Great.
On His inauguration He received a letter from Netanyahu tellling Him who He could talk to.

 

[Ivan88]

No rebuttals yet, I see. At least, no successful ones. Perhaps these points about Christian Zionism are irrefutable.

• God wanted Jews to return to and take over Palestine;
• God had two plans for salvation – one for Christians and one for Jews;
• Christians should abstain from politics, education, business, and the arts, as these are “worldly” pursuits to remain in the hands of “worldly” people;
• God interacts with humankind in accordance with seven historical time frames, or “dispensations,” the current one, Grace, being the sixth one;
• The Christian Church is doomed to failure, which will terminate the Dispensation of Grace;
• A seven-year tribulation, or worldwide persecution, will characterize the end of this dispensational grace period, which Christians need not fret over, as they will be raptured;
• Christ will then reign for one thousand years and Old Testament customs will be reinstituted in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem.

So the question again is, are they biblical?

Rebuttals welcome.

Are You saying that those points You mentioned are valid?

 

[surada]

Nope. Baptist. Loosely Baptist. I have read my bible and I have seen it plain as day.

I thought so... Pure Scofield.

 

[buttercup]

No rebuttals yet, I see. At least, no successful ones. Perhaps these points about Christian Zionism are irrefutable.

• God wanted Jews to return to and take over Palestine;
• God had two plans for salvation – one for Christians and one for Jews;
• Christians should abstain from politics, education, business, and the arts, as these are “worldly” pursuits to remain in the hands of “worldly” people;
• God interacts with humankind in accordance with seven historical time frames, or “dispensations,” the current one, Grace, being the sixth one;
• The Christian Church is doomed to failure, which will terminate the Dispensation of Grace;
• A seven-year tribulation, or worldwide persecution, will characterize the end of this dispensational grace period, which Christians need not fret over, as they will be raptured;
• Christ will then reign for one thousand years and Old Testament customs will be reinstituted in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem.

So the question again is, are they biblical?

Rebuttals welcome.

Unbiblical, but that doesn't make your position (and surada's) true. Both are unbiblical, iyam, but I'm not going to argue about it. We've had this discussion before, and to me preterism is so observably false, for numerous reasons, that it's not even worth taking the time to debunk it. So few people believe it anyway, so I'd rather spend my time tackling other topics that I feel are far more pressing.

 

[Ivan88]

By their Fruits You can know who they are.
The antiChrist Edomite Jews who call themselves Zionists taught the world terrorism. And it is completely different from the Zion/Sion described by the Apostle Paul in Hebrews 12 where good men are made Perfect in Christ.

 

[Ivan88]

Martin Luther on being a fool:

“More than once a fool has spoken wisely”…”…1 Cor 3:18
as Paul says, If any would be wise, let him become a fool.”

>From Open Letter to the Christian Nobility of the German
Nation Concerning the Reform of the Christian Estate. 1520 A. D.

 

[surada]

Are You saying that those points You mentioned are valid?

Quite the opposite. They aren't biblical.. they are political as intended.

 

[surada]

Moses said the Israelites would be the chosen people in the 21st century? Can you be a little less vague and point to a specific passage?

Being vague is a good way to rebut, isn't it.

All I see at the end of Deuteronomy is the Song of Moses being recorded to witness against Israel's idolatry after she crosses the Jordan into the promised land.

And the LORD said to Moses, “Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers. Then this people will rise and whore after the foreign gods among them in the land that they are entering, and they will forsake me and break my covenant that I have made with them. Then my anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide my face from them, and they will be devoured. And many evils and troubles will come upon them, so that they will say in that day, ‘Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?’ And I will surely hide my face in that day because of all the evil that they have done, because they have turned to other gods. (31:16-18)​

“The LORD saw it and spurned them,
because of the provocation of his sons and his daughters.
And he said, ‘I will hide my face from them;
I will see what their end will be,
for they are a perverse generation,
children in whom is no faithfulness. (32:19,20)
​

Did you catch that? What their end will be.

The Israelites would live long in their new home, as 32:47 says, but obviously not forever. They were a disobedient people - pretty much every generation, especially the last, as the New Testament relates.

Now can you fixate a little better on a proper answer? What passage says this ancient people would be living among us moderns?

I think these special Dispensationist prefer to ignore the scriptures.

 

[surada]

Oh cry me a river and read a bible once in a while. You're not supposed to listen to "scholars and theologians", you're supposed to read the book. And from reading the book, I see that the Israelites are Gods chosen people, people that Christians should respect and walk hand in hand with. After all, Christians are gentiles.

Why don't you read the Bible. Norwegen has ...

 

[surada]

Moses 7 teaches of the original city of Zion and that it will come again upon the earth.

Isaiah 1:26-27
26 And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.
27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Isaiah 2:3
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Isaiah 24:23
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Joel 2:1
1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Isaiah 52

Revelation 14:1
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.

Moses 7:18
18 And the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them.

Revelation 21:2
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

The term "Zion" means the pure in heart as stated in Moses 7:18 above. But it was also the name of the city which Enoch established which was taken up into heaven and will return again. The people of that city were pure in heart. The city is also known as the New Jerusalem. According to the Prophet Joseph Smith, the city of Zion will be established again on the American continent. the people who are pure in heart will help to establish the city of Zion again in these last days along with the angels in heaven and the ancient city of Zion that was taken into heaven will again join them.

Articles of Faith
10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

what do you mean by Zion was the first city. Can you show me references to what you are referring to? It was the first and only city built up by Enoch.

Isaiah was writing about the restoration of Jerusalem after the Babylonian exile.

 

[surada]

Isaiah was writing about the restoration of Jerusalem after the Babylonian exile.

buttercup

Isaiah is so simple and so obviously about restoring Jerusalem after the exile that I wonder if you've ever read it at all.

 

[buttercup]

I'm not going to argue with you. We all know your position, you state it here daily. You've already made it clear that you don't believe the Bible, you've said it's myth, you don't think it's special, you see it in the same way that atheists or agnostics see it, so you are reading the Bible without the Spirit. That is why you can't understand it. Please read the following verse:

The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.​

​

1 Corinthians 2:14​

 

[surada]

I'm not going to argue with you. We all know your position, you state it here daily. You've already made it clear that you don't believe the Bible, you've said it's myth, you don't think it's special, you see it in the same way that atheists or agnostics see it, so you are reading the Bible without the Spirit. That is why you can't understand it. Please read the following verse:

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.​

​

1 Corinthians 2:14​

I have read Isaiah and accept what it says. I don't have to change it to suit Hal Lindsey. It's about restoring Jerusalem and the temple after the Babylonian exile.

 

[buttercup]

I have read Isaiah and accept what it says. I don't have to change it to suit Hal Lindsey. It's about restoring Jerusalem and the temple after the Babylonian exile.

I love how you completely ignored what I said, and as always, you put forth your usual strawman.

Again, we all know your position, you state it on all the religion threads daily. Why do you try so hard to push preterism?

And why would anyone with any sense at all give weight to what you have to say in regard to the Bible, when you have made it clear that you don't even believe the Bible, and you constantly give thumbs ups to anti-christians and atheists, you've used a known satanist as a source, and you constantly agree with people who mock and attack the Bible.

Read the verse I posted in my previous post. Read it a few times. And I'll pray for you.

 

[surada]

Cyrus the Great was a benevolent conquerer.

I love how you completely ignored what I said, and as always, you put forth your usual strawman.

Again, we all know your position, you state it on all the religion threads daily. Why do you try so hard to push preterism?

And why would anyone with any sense at all give weight to what you have to say in regard to the Bible, when you have made it clear that you don't even believe the Bible, and you constantly give thumbs ups to anti-christians and atheists, you've used a known satanist as a source, and you constantly agree with people who mock and attack the Bible.

Read the verse I posted in my previous post. Read it a few times. And I'll pray for you.

I certainly do believe the Bible. I don't change what it says. Isaiah is about the end of the exile.