Zone1 The God Proof

[alang1216]

What you really mean to say is that you don't know how or why the universe was created but you are 100% certain that God didn't do it. Which is a contradictory statement. If you don't know how or why, then you can't know it wasn't God.

What I've always said is that I'm agnostic on the subject of a creator but I'm 99.99% certain that the God of the Bible is not that creator. If I find a dead bird on the street, I may not know how or why it died but I'm 99.99% certain that it wasn't ET.

You don't believe the laws of nature predestined beings that know and create even though beings that know and create arose according to the laws of nature? Evolution of space and time which includes biological evolution is not random. It occurs for logical reasons. That you cannot see that space and time has evolved to produce increasing complexity baffles me.

Increasing complexity does not mean intelligence. Dinos lived for 150 million years but were likely no more intelligent after all that time. Look what our intelligence has done to this planet. I'm not convinced intelligence, like ours, is a great, long-term, survival strategy.

You are the one who brought up carrots, dummy. I merely said I don't see why all living things can't have a spiritual component commensurate with their awareness. All living things are aware to some degree as all living things respond to their environment.

So what is a carrot's spiritual component?

 

[BULLDOG]

And I'm not alone as every society since the beginning of man has overwhelmingly believed that God exists.

Most of them thought the earth was flat to. Even if lots of people believe something goofy, that doesn't make it not goofy.

 

[Meriweather]

I'm 99.99% certain that the God of the Bible is not that creator.

You don't know the "God of the Bible". Learn Hebrew, study rabbinical commentaries instead of jumping to conclusions over what you think you have read. The quote, “I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant” easily applies to the Old Testament English translation.

alang, you are no more interested in doing this than you are in seeking and finding God. Your interest seems to be in tearing down the work of others.

 

[alang1216]

Now you are contradicting yourself. Which is it? Are we a product of natural forces or are we a product of randomness because the laws of nature aren't tuned to produce life and intelligence.

Randomness, from the quantum to the astronomical scale, is a natural force so there is no contradiction. Life and increasing complexity seem to part of the many natural forces.

The realm of philosophy starts right before the universe popped into existence. Any GOOD philosophical argument will be based upon how the universe evolved and will use logic to show how that pertains to the origin questions. A good example of a philosophical argument is that since the same laws that describe the evolution of space and time applied to the creation of space and time, then the laws of nature must have been in existence before the creation of space and time.

Do you have a different explanation?

I'm not a philosopher, I prefer hard science guided by hard evidence. I don't think we have either for what preceded the Big Bang. We have several theories but I do not have a favorite.

 

[alang1216]

You don't know the "God of the Bible". Learn Hebrew, study rabbinical commentaries instead of jumping to conclusions over what you think you have read. The quote, “I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant” easily applies to the Old Testament English translation.

I disagree, God is described many times in the Bible and I've read them all. I might say you have created your own God based on your faith and your wishes. You want God to be a certain way so you only see what you want to see.

alang, you are no more interested in doing this than you are in seeking and finding God. Your interest seems to be in tearing down the work of others.

I gave up seeking God decades ago but my search for understanding religion, society, and people will continue until I die.

 

[Meriweather]

I disagree, God is described many times in the Bible and I've read them all. I might say you have created your own God based on your faith and your wishes. You want God to be a certain way so you only see what you want to see.

I can tell you have skimmed or scanned through the Bible...played in the shallows as the saying goes. Playing in the shallows isn't the same as mastering the ocean.

And, here is where you are wrong, or are seeing a mirror image of yourself: You want God to be a certain way, so you don't see. I was just a toddler when I began seeking God, and I had no expectations; I just wanted to find God to see what He was, whatever that is. Again...go to the silence...without expectations. The great truth lies in one small, but powerful Bible verse: Seek and you shall find. Again, seek in the silence and lose all expectations. God is over, beyond, far from any expectation.

 

[Meriweather]

I gave up seeking God decades ago but my search for understanding religion, society, and people will continue until I die.

I think you gave up understanding religion as well.

 

[alang1216]

I can tell you have skimmed or scanned through the Bible...played in the shallows as the saying goes. Playing in the shallows isn't the same as mastering the ocean.

I've studied the Bible quite thoroughly I think. It is the theological shallows where I've played.

And, here is where you are wrong, or are seeing a mirror image of yourself: You want God to be a certain way, so you don't see. I was just a toddler when I began seeking God, and I had no expectations; I just wanted to find God to see what He was, whatever that is. Again...go to the silence...without expectations. The great truth lies in one small, but powerful Bible verse: Seek and you shall find. Again, seek in the silence and lose all expectations. God is over, beyond, far from any expectation.

If you had been seeking Allah, would you be a Muslim today? If you grew up in India would you be a Hindu? I think we find what we seek.

 

[ding]

What I've always said is that I'm agnostic on the subject of a creator but I'm 99.99% certain that the God of the Bible is not that creator. If I find a dead bird on the street, I may not know how or why it died but I'm 99.99% certain that it wasn't ET.

That's totally contradictory. You can't be agnostic and have beliefs of what God is or isn't. But even worse it shows you are biased.

 

[ding]

Increasing complexity does not mean intelligence. Dinos lived for 150 million years but were likely no more intelligent after all that time. Look what our intelligence has done to this planet. I'm not convinced intelligence, like ours, is a great, long-term, survival strategy.

I never said increasing complexity means intelligence. I said it baffles me that you cannot see that space and time has evolved to produce increasing complexity.

Why are you comparing dinosaurs to human beings who created a technological civilization? That's an idiotic comparison. It's amazing the lengths you will go to to avoid the obvious. Intelligence - especially human intelligence - is a functional advantage and that is why it evolved. Intelligence was literally predestined by evolution to evolve because it is a functional advantage.

It is the nature of intelligence to produce intelligence.

 

[ding]

So what is a carrot's spiritual component?

Sadly... more than yours.

 

[ding]

Most of them thought the earth was flat to. Even if lots of people believe something goofy, that doesn't make it not goofy.

Until they discovered the earth wasn't flat. But they were not hardwired to believe in a flat earth. Whereas humans are hardwired to believe in God.

 

[ding]

Randomness, from the quantum to the astronomical scale, is a natural force so there is no contradiction. Life and increasing complexity seem to part of the many natural forces.

Quantum mechanics don't defy the law of nature and neither do planets, suns and galaxies, so, no, not random like you think they are random. Yes, life and increasing complexity were produced by natural forces or as I said the laws of nature. Welcome to the belief that the laws of nature are fine tuned to produce life and intelligence.

 

[ding]

I'm not a philosopher, I prefer hard science guided by hard evidence. I don't think we have either for what preceded the Big Bang. We have several theories but I do not have a favorite.

That can't be true because you offer no scientific explanations for the universe popping into existence and the laws of nature being finely tuned to produce life and intelligence.

Besides you seem to be confusing what happened before the big bang with the big bang itself. We have tons of evidence that shows how the universe was created from nothing. Tons. And you dismiss it all because that evidence points to a creator that is outside of time and space and beyond existing matter and energy.

 

[Meriweather]

If you had been seeking Allah, would you be a Muslim today? If you grew up in India would you be a Hindu? I think we find what we seek.

I have never been a fan of "What Ifs". I play the hand I was dealt, not the hand someone imagines for me. I have a sister a year and a half younger than I, and we were always very close, same schools, etc. She's a Buddhist. It is not so much we become what we are born; rather we become what we choose.

Over and above: I believe in one God, you call Him what you will. Had I called him Allah, same result.

 

[alang1216]

That's totally contradictory. You can't be agnostic and have beliefs of what God is or isn't. But even worse it shows you are biased.

Absolutely wrong since they are two completely different things, no matter how much you wish to conflate them.

 

[alang1216]

I never said increasing complexity means intelligence. I said it baffles me that you cannot see that space and time has evolved to produce increasing complexity.

I agree that life has become quite complex.

Why are you comparing dinosaurs to human beings who created a technological civilization? That's an idiotic comparison. It's amazing the lengths you will go to to avoid the obvious. Intelligence - especially human intelligence - is a functional advantage and that is why it evolved. Intelligence was literally predestined by evolution to evolve because it is a functional advantage.

If intelligence is a functional advantage why didn't the dinosaurs evolve a technological civilization in their 150 million years and exploit that functional advantage? Our a technological civilization is measured in thousands of years, will we outlast the dinos/birds?

It is the nature of intelligence to produce intelligence.

Dangerous to extrapolate from a single example.

 

[alang1216]

Quantum mechanics don't defy the law of nature and neither do planets, suns and galaxies, so, no, not random like you think they are random. Yes, life and increasing complexity were produced by natural forces or as I said the laws of nature.

Again, lots of extrapolations based on a single example.

Welcome to the belief that the laws of nature are fine tuned to produce life and intelligence.

Our universe does seem to support life. Are there other universes that also produced life but based on different parameters?

 

[alang1216]

That can't be true because you offer no scientific explanations for the universe popping into existence and the laws of nature being finely tuned to produce life and intelligence.

It can't be true or you don't want it to true? Sorry, but the mathematical calculations of physicists show that other theories are possible.

Besides you seem to be confusing what happened before the big bang with the big bang itself. We have tons of evidence that shows how the universe was created from nothing. Tons. And you dismiss it all because that evidence points to a creator that is outside of time and space and beyond existing matter and energy.

Again, you focus on one of many theories because that one seems consistent with Genesis.

 

[alang1216]

I have never been a fan of "What Ifs". I play the hand I was dealt, not the hand someone imagines for me. I have a sister a year and a half younger than I, and we were always very close, same schools, etc. She's a Buddhist. It is not so much we become what we are born; rather we become what we choose.

Over and above: I believe in one God, you call Him what you will. Had I called him Allah, same result.

So the Bible, the Koran, the Vedas, etc. are all essentially the same and have equal value? Are you a Christian or a Deist or something else?