The future of Iraq

[DeadCanDance]

Short version: Iraq is a failed state, that will never recover to be a unified, vibrant democracy, nor a beacon to the arab world. The sectarian divides unleashed by Bush have taken root, and will not be dislodged.

As for american policy, the surge was a temporary band-aid that fundamentally accomplished nothing in the realm of political reconcilation. Long term, it has actually made things worse. The US policy of bribing, and paying sunni insurgents to not attack us will backfire. We are, in effect, arming "former" sunni insurgents and giving them piles of cash. All of which they will ultimately use to further their own agendas. Which is to prevent Shia domination of Iraq. We basically abandoned southern Iraq to Muqtada Al Sadr and the Mehdi Army. Which means, Bush effectively created another theocratic Hezbollah-style political organization in shia southern Iraq. Sectarian violence between shia rivals - specifically the Mehdi Army and the Supreme Islamic Council's Badr corps - will likley grow and get worse. One thing that's held violence partially in check for the last 6 months, is Muqtada Al Sadr declared a unilateral cease fire. And he will only hold to that cease fire in accordance with his own agenda, not Bush's agenda.

The kurds have all but bailed out on Iraq. The kurds are splitered and split even among each other, and the coming conflict between the kurds and sunnis over Kirkuk and the northern oil fields is almost a certainty.

The Truth Is, Iraq's Future Is Abysmal

By Scott Ritter

As nice as it would be for some hope that the "surge" worked, the truth is that the disaster in Iraq has only just begun.

http://alternet.org/waroniraq/76318/

 

[Truthmatters]

The end wont be over for a long time for the Iraqis. We however do have a choice to leave them to their own to deal with it. It is what they want.

 

[Alpha1]

Knowing how much you trust Scott Ritter and his articles, why not post an interesting story like this one.....
We'll watch for Desh to comment on how the truth prevails....

http://alternet.org/story/48729/

SHORT VERSION:
It Doesn't Matter If Hillary Apologizes for Her Iraq War Vote
Hillary Clinton knew years before she voted for the Iraq war that Saddam Hussein didn't have WMDs -- Bill Clinton lied about Iraq's weapons programs to justify attacking the country in 1998.
Posted on Mar 3, 2007

 

[GHook93]

Short version: Iraq is a failed state, that will never recover to be a unified, vibrant democracy, nor a beacon to the arab world. The sectarian divides unleashed by Bush have taken root, and will not be dislodged.

As for american policy, the surge was a temporary band-aid that fundamentally accomplished nothing in the realm of political reconcilation. Long term, it has actually made things worse. The US policy of bribing, and paying sunni insurgents to not attack us will backfire. We are, in effect, arming "former" sunni insurgents and giving them piles of cash. All of which they will ultimately use to further their own agendas. Which is to prevent Shia domination of Iraq. We basically abandoned southern Iraq to Muqtada Al Sadr and the Mehdi Army. Which means, Bush effectively created another theocratic Hezbollah-style political organization in shia southern Iraq. Sectarian violence between shia rivals - specifically the Mehdi Army and the Supreme Islamic Council's Badr corps - will likley grow and get worse. One thing that's held violence partially in check for the last 6 months, is Muqtada Al Sadr declared a unilateral cease fire. And he will only hold to that cease fire in accordance with his own agenda, not Bush's agenda.

The kurds have all but bailed out on Iraq. The kurds are splitered and split even among each other, and the coming conflict between the kurds and sunnis over Kirkuk and the northern oil fields is almost a certainty.

Now I am not stating I support the war (I will admit I did in the beginning, but so did the vast majority of America), it was a mistake. Sadam was the best counter-balancing influence to Iran.

Nevertheless, we are there and the surge is bring a window of opportunity. If we pulled out now, there would be a Rwanda style slaughter in Iraq and an inevitable bloody war between the Turks and Kurds! Regardless of what the ultra-liberal author believes, this situation in Iraq was inevitable, all Bush did was speed it up

While the violence is being suppressed by the surge, the Iraqi government needs to press forward on its political objectives, which it has pretty much failed to do. Yes if they fail to do that then, nothing the US can do will work.
We should push forward and do what Mitt Romney suggested, sent Private, non-public Timelines!.

While the surge is working we need to give the Malik government a little more time! I will admit it is not as pretty as some Republicans make it out to be!

 

[Alpha1]

Knowing how much you trust Scott Ritter and his articles, why not post an interesting story like this one.....
We'll watch for Desh to comment on how the truth prevails....

http://alternet.org/story/48729/

SHORT VERSION:
It Doesn't Matter If Hillary Apologizes for Her Iraq War Vote
Hillary Clinton knew years before she voted for the Iraq war that Saddam Hussein didn't have WMDs -- Bill Clinton lied about Iraq's weapons programs to justify attacking the country in 1998.
Posted on Mar 3, 2007

I expect to hear from MM and DCD and Desh what a liar Ritter is.....?

Lets hear it....

 

[maineman]

I expect to hear from MM and DCD and Desh what a liar Ritter is.....?

Lets hear it....

I just got back from my caucus where I cast a vote for Obama. Hillary's vote for that war is unconscionable. I do not find it hard to believe that Clinton hyped Saddam's WMD capabilities in order to justify an air attack.... which is terrible, but pales in comparison to hyping the intell - and creating the false association between Saddam and 9/11 - to prey upon America's fears and its anger to launch a full scale ground war that has cost, to date, over half a trillion dollars and over 31K dead and wounded Americans and has been counterproductive to the war against islamic extremism.

Did Clinton fuck up? certainly.

Did Bush REALLY fuck up? absolutely.

 

[DeadCanDance]

I expect to hear from MM and DCD and Desh what a liar Ritter is.....?

Lets hear it....

You are either suffering from amnesia, or you enjoy lying your ass off.

I've told you before, and I'm on record on this board, saying that the clinton adminstration exaggerated, hyped, i.e. lied about the nature and scope of the threat from iraq in the 1990s, in order to serve US interests. Which were to contain saddam and keep sanctions and pressure on him until his regime collapsed.

Your president actually took us into a war on lies. He pulled the trigger, it was his call. No one put a gun to his head and told him he had to invade a pissant country with a tin pot dictator.

I vote for candidates who were against the war, when the opportunity presents itself. I've never cast a vote for hillary clinton; I supported Howard Dean in 2004, and I just voted for Barak Obama last week. Here's what Barak said about your war, in 2002:

Now let me be clear – I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchers his own people to secure his own power. He has repeatedly defied UN resolutions, thwarted UN inspection teams, developed chemical and biological weapons, and coveted nuclear capacity.

He’s a bad guy. The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him.

But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history.

I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaeda.

I am not opposed to all wars. I’m opposed to dumb wars.

Barak right, on all counts.

Barak = 1....Bush/Alpha=0

 

[Alpha1]

Thats great....great to hear from both of you.....

So in the name decency and fairness, in the future I expect to see quotes resembling these from both of you....

Bush and Clinton lied about Saddam WMD....

Bush and Clinton knew Saddam posed no imminent and direct threat to the United States and lied to the American people....

Bush and Clinton lies drove us to an immoral war....(after all, it couldn't have happened without Democrats lies and votes)


I'm all for fairness ......


PS...So how did Obama do MM....??? The vote was at lease 1 to ???

 

[Alpha1]

Never mind...I see Obama won in Maine.....

 

[maineman]

Thats great....great to hear from both of you.....

So in the name decency and fairness, in the future I expect to see quotes resembling these from both of you....

Bush and Clinton lied about Saddam WMD....

Bush and Clinton knew Saddam posed no imminent and direct threat to the United States and lied to the American people....

Bush and Clinton lies drove us to an immoral war....(after all, it couldn't have happened without Democrats lies and votes)


I'm all for fairness ......

Clinton's hyping of the threat from Saddam did NOTHING to drive us to an immoral war. Clearly it DID happen because of the efforts of Team Bush. The majority of congressional democrats TRIED to stop him.

 

[DeadCanDance]

Thats great....great to hear from both of you.....

So in the name decency and fairness, in the future I expect to see quotes resembling these from both of you....

Bush and Clinton lied about Saddam WMD....

Bush and Clinton knew Saddam posed no imminent and direct threat to the United States and lied to the American people....

Bush and Clinton lies drove us to an immoral war....(after all, it couldn't have happened without Democrats lies and votes)


I'm all for fairness ......


PS...So how did Obama do MM....??? The vote was at lease 1 to ???

Yes, you and I are certainly in agreement that some democrats, and virtually all republicans hyped, exaggerated, and lied about the nature and scope of the threat from iraq.

Sadly, YOUR president made the command decision to invade a country on exaggerated hype, and engaged in a massive, misleading public relations campaign to sell his and your war.